If Jesus is God he sacrificed nothing for us.

[godnotgod]

Whether you believe he gave anything of himself or not (time, concern, actually suffering for our sake), what he did made it possible for all of our suffering to be nullified.

.

I assume by 'what he did' you must mean that he shed his blood as a means of redemption of sin. How does the shedding of blood wash away sin?

 

[Deeje]

Deeje, sorry to intrude, but heaven & hell are states of being.

I guess that depends upon where we get our ideas about heaven and hell in the first place. Unless they come from the Bible, they can mean pretty much anything. Even then, those who claim that their ideas come from the Bible, really haven't read it. Jesus said "heaven" is the place where his Father dwells (Matthew 6:9).....and "hell" (Greek hades, Hebrew sheol) is the common grave, where all humanity ends up. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) There are other terms rendered "hell" in most Bibles, (gehenna, lake of fire, tartarus) but these are totally misunderstood. No one "suffers" in the Bible's "hell".

My mother was an alcoholic and was often in hell ! I have a friend who is a heavy drug user and he has been told never to get in touch with his family. He ripped most of his family off including his parents. He was a mess, and well, probably still is. I hope he changes, only he can do that though.

I am always sorry to hear about addictions of any kind....they are usually indicative of a suffering soul needing medicine to make the pain go away. Unfortunately, an altered mental state induced by these drugs also makes people do things that makes God go away too. But if people reach out to him for help, he will supply the strongest power in the universe to support them, but all the effort has to be theirs. He will bless that effort.

 

[Ingledsva]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

I agree totally.

I see nothing in the Biblical writings that actually say Jesus is the literal son of God.

Bible actually says the Jews are Sons of God.

They seem to have misinterpreted a text in Isaiah about a virgin, - decided it was about the coming Jewish Messiah, - and thus gave Jesus a God instigated virgin birth, since he was claiming to be that Messiah.

I think he did everything he was taught, or thought, the Messiah was supposed to do. And I think he cried out - "Why have you forsaken me?" because at that point it was obvious that he wasn't the Messiah, - he died.

At which point the story has to have an addition, - stating that he arose from the grave, - and will be BACK to do what the Messiah was supposed to do. The Messiah was not supposed to die.

I do think he actually thought he was the Messiah. But so have many others, whom also died.

*

 

[godnotgod]

Jesus said "heaven" is the place where his Father dwells....

He also said that 'the kingdom of God is within you', which makes sense in the context of Jesus being a Nazarene, which is a Jewish mystic, a sect of the Essenes, who looked inwards for their spirituality. 'The Father', of course, would dwell within the kingdom that lies within.

He also said: 'lest ye turn, and become ye as little children, ye shall not enter into Paradise', 'turn', meaning to 'turn inwards', and away from the corrupted teachings of society.

 

[godnotgod]

... he cried out - "Why have you forsaken me?" ...

It is interesting to note that, since Jesus, or rather Yeshua, spoke Aramaic, what sounded very similar to 'why hast thou forsaken me?' to those at the foot of the cross who did not speak Aramaic, was actually 'for this I was kept':

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani"
This is a quote in Aramaic -- meaning "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" -- attributed in the New Testament to Jesus as he was crucified. In English translation, these words also comprise the beginning of the Twenty-Second Psalm.

Matthew 27:46 - ηλι ηλι λαμα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lama sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa saa-baach-taa-nee?")
Matthew 27:46 (Lamsa translation)- ηλι ηλι λαμανα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lamana sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa-naa saa-baach-taa-nee?")
The late Aramaic Bible researcher George Lamsa claimed that the traditional "forsaken" interpretation is a mistake in the Aramaic scribing that was transferred to later transcriptions. Lamsa claimed that "the correct translation from Aramaic should be "Eli, Eli, lemana shabakthani" or "My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!" or "...for such a purpose have you kept me!") According to Lamsa's translation, that rather than a "loss of faith" Christ meant, to say "so this is my destiny."

Rocco Errico writes about the Aramaic spoken in the recent The Passion of the Christ film: "The Aramaic text does not say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" [Jesus'] words were not a question but a declaration: "My God, my God, for this I was spared! [or "This was my destiny]"..."Interestingly, the recent TV movie Judas portrayed these words correctly."

Among most Christians the former interpretation is still believed to be correct, and the newer Lamsa interpretation, largely unknown to most Christians, and may be considered unusual and even heretical.

Why hast thou forsaken me

 

[Ingledsva]

It is interesting to note that, since Jesus, or rather Yeshua, spoke Aramaic, what sounded very similar to 'why hast thou forsaken me?' to those at the foot of the cross who did not speak Aramaic, was actually 'for this I was kept':

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani"
This is a quote in Aramaic -- meaning "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" -- attributed in the New Testament to Jesus as he was crucified. In English translation, these words also comprise the beginning of the Twenty-Second Psalm.

Matthew 27:46 - ηλι ηλι λαμα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lama sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa saa-baach-taa-nee?")
Matthew 27:46 (Lamsa translation)- ηλι ηλι λαμανα σαβαχθανι (/eli eli lamana sabachthani/, later Aramaic "E-lee e-lee l-maa-naa saa-baach-taa-nee?")
The late Aramaic Bible researcher George Lamsa claimed that the traditional "forsaken" interpretation is a mistake in the Aramaic scribing that was transferred to later transcriptions. Lamsa claimed that "the correct translation from Aramaic should be "Eli, Eli, lemana shabakthani" or "My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!" or "...for such a purpose have you kept me!") According to Lamsa's translation, that rather than a "loss of faith" Christ meant, to say "so this is my destiny."

Rocco Errico writes about the Aramaic spoken in the recent The Passion of the Christ film: "The Aramaic text does not say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" [Jesus'] words were not a question but a declaration: "My God, my God, for this I was spared! [or "This was my destiny]"..."Interestingly, the recent TV movie Judas portrayed these words correctly."

Among most Christians the former interpretation is still believed to be correct, and the newer Lamsa interpretation, largely unknown to most Christians, and may be considered unusual and even heretical.

Why hast thou forsaken me

Yes I actually wrote about this translation idea some time back.

However, he died, and the Jewish Messiah wasn't supposed to.

*

 

[godnotgod]

Yes I actually wrote about this translation idea some time back.

However, he died, and the Jewish Messiah wasn't supposed to.

*

That he died on the cross is also in question. The alternative story re: his 18 'missing years' is that Yeshua traveled throughout India, Tibet, Persia, and China. At the Buddhist monastery in Hemis, Tibet, he was known by the monks as 'our beloved St. Issa', 'Issa' meaning 'saviour'. When Yeshua was taken down from the cross and placed in the tomb, the story goes that Joseph of Aramithea spirited the still-alive Yeshua back to Hemis, where he was healed of his wounds and lived out the rest of his days. The Hemis monastery to this day claims it has a set of scrolls which set down many of the words and teachings of Yeshua, and some who have claimed to have seen such scrolls, in particular, one Nicolas Notovich:

The Lost Years of Jesus: The Life of Saint Issa - Notovitch

 

[Ingledsva]

That he died on the cross is also in question. The alternative story re: his 18 'missing years' is that Yeshua traveled throughout India, Tibet, Persia, and China. At the Buddhist monastery in Hemis, Tibet, he was known by the monks as 'our beloved St. Issa', 'Issa' meaning 'saviour'. When Yeshua was taken down from the cross and placed in the tomb, the story goes that Joseph of Aramithea spirited the still-alive Yeshua back to Hemis, where he was healed of his wounds and lived out the rest of his days. The Hemis monastery to this day claims it has a set of scrolls which set down many of the words and teachings of Yeshua, and some who have claimed to have seen such scrolls, in particular, one Nicolas Notovich:

The Lost Years of Jesus: The Life of Saint Issa - Notovitch

Yep, and He walked the Americas, etc., too.

Personally I have no problem with there being a twin that took his place, or that he didn't die and went to the tin areas of Europe, etc.

However, that is not the accepted Biblical story. And that is what we are discussing.

He wasn't a God, or actual son of a God, and he did not fulfill the Jewish Messiah prophecies, which is why they do NOT accept him.

*

 

[Deeje]

He also said that 'the kingdom of God is within you', which makes sense in the context of Jesus being a Nazarene, which is a Jewish mystic, a sect of the Essenes, who looked inwards for their spirituality. 'The Father', of course, would dwell within the kingdom that lies within.

Well, actually, Jesus didn't say that the kingdom was "within" the people he was addressing. There is not one mention in the Bible of Jesus being either an Essene or a mystic.
He identified himself as "the son of God" and "the son of man". He was sent from heaven on a mission which ended in his death as a human. (son of man) He said quite plainly that he was from the realms above, which is heaven. (John 8:22-23)

The scripture you refer to is Luke 17:20-21, which reads.....
"Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Who were his audience when he said those words? It was the Pharisees, of whom Jesus also said....
"You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
“‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” (Matthew 15:7-9)

Jesus was hardly telling those wicked men that the kingdom was within them. He was telling them that the King of God's kingdom was right there among them ("in their midst") but they failed to acknowledge him.

He also said: 'lest ye turn, and become ye as little children, ye shall not enter into Paradise', 'turn', meaning to 'turn inwards', and away from the corrupted teachings of society.

The Greek word "turn" (strephō) according to Strongs, means...
"to turn, turn around" from a former course and embark on a new one. It means to repent and turn from a sinful way of life. The decision to do that comes from the heart, but the motive is to please God instead of oneself. The new course is a visible one.

Entering the kingdom of God is mentioned in this verse, not entering into paradise. Adam and his wife were placed in paradise, which was right here on earth. The thief executed alongside Jesus was promised "paradise", not heaven.

God's original purpose to have a perfect race of humans, living forever and taking care of this unique planet specially prepared for living creatures was always going to take place. (Isaiah 55:11) Paradise was on earth.

 

[godnotgod]

However, that is not the accepted Biblical story. And that is what we are discussing.
*

True, but the 'accepted' Biblical story, both of his missing 18 years and of the so-called 'resurrection', are highly suspicious.

Adding to the Hemis account, at a burial site called The Roza Bal Shrine of Srinagar in Kashimir, there lies a body inscribed with the name of Yuza Asaf, which as I recall, means 'healer', in Hebrew. An artist's carving at the foot of the tomb is of two feet with a single puncture wound, typical of a Roman crucifixion technique, as well as the fact that the body is aligned in an East-West position, typical of a JEWISH burial, and NOT of a burial of a man from the East.

Research/Theories/Christ - Grooming to Grave in India - Bhupendra Techniques

 

[godnotgod]

Well, actually, Jesus didn't say that the kingdom was "within" the people he was addressing. There is not one mention in the Bible of Jesus being either an Essene or a mystic.
He identified himself as "the son of God" and "the son of man". He was sent from heaven on a mission which ended in his death as a human. (son of man) He said quite plainly that he was from the realms above, which is heaven. (John 8:22-23)

The scripture you refer to is Luke 17:20-21, which reads.....
"Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

In Aramaic, the language it is mostly agreed upon amongst scholars which Yeshua spoke, and which is the language of the Pe-shi-tta, considered to be the original Bible written before the Greek NT, the passage reads:

hah geyr mal'kuw'theh da'lo'hah l'gaw men'kuwn iy

literally:

"Such thus the kingdom, his of the Alah; to from within you she be."

A mystic is one who goes within to find the divine nature.

http://pe****ta.org/for/archive/index.php?thread-1889.html
*****

Yeshua was a Nazarene, a sect of the Essenes.

Nazarene is the title by which Jesus and his followers were referred to. The word 'Christian' was never used by Jesus or used to describe those who followed him.
In the New Testament book of Acts, Paul is tried in Caesarea, and Tertullus is reported as saying:

"We have, in fact, found this man a pestilent fellow, an agitator among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5, New Revised Standard Version).

What is a Nazarene

A first-century Nazareth was non-existent, so Yeshua could not have been a Nazarene as it relates to his being a citizen of 'Nazareth'.

 

[godnotgod]

The Greek word "turn" (strephō) according to Strongs, means...
"to turn, turn around" from a former course and embark on a new one. It means to repent and turn from a sinful way of life. The decision to do that comes from the heart, but the motive is to please God instead of oneself. The new course is a visible one.

Entering the kingdom of God is mentioned in this verse, not entering into paradise. Adam and his wife were placed in paradise, which was right here on earth. The thief executed alongside Jesus was promised "paradise", not heaven.

God's original purpose to have a perfect race of humans, living forever and taking care of this unique planet specially prepared for living creatures was always going to take place. (Isaiah 55:11) Paradise was on earth.

Ah, you see, to the mystic, there is no difference between a celestial heaven and an earthly Paradise.*

Also note that in the previous post re: 'within you' in Aramaic, it includes the word 'she', which reflects EASTERN MYSTICAL teachings, as it is the feminine aspect which opens the door to the divine.

The valley spirit never dies;
It is the woman, primal mother.
Her gateway is the root of heaven and Earth.
It is like a veil barely seen.
Use it; it will never fail.

Tao te Ching, Ch 6

The Pe-shi-tta, written in Aramaic, is the Bible of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and reflects the teachings of Yeshua, a man from the East, not from the West.

*The Earth is a celestial object, floating in the heavens.

 

[Repox]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

NT authors got it wrong. Jesus was God and he didn't come into the world to sacrifice for humankind, He came into the world to give testimony to his chosen people. Things didn't go well, He was murdered for Hs claims and statements about the Kingdom of Heaven. He was a threat to the Roman Emperor for claiming He was divine. Back then, the Roman Emperor was regarded as divine.

 

[wicketkeeper]

Happy Sunday to y'all.

I want to know one thing: is this 'lower self' you equate with ego, real, and what is it's source?[/QUOTE]

Great question. Expanding further on matters relating to the 'lower self'. The source is.......whatever 'I' is writing your words.

Due to what is referred to as a Near Death Experience(NDE) which happened in my early teens I know for certain that I(Higher Self) have a body, but I am not the body; I have a mind and emotions/thoughts - however I am not the mind nor am I the emotions/thoughts.

The I(Higher Self) needs a physical body-mind vehicle in order to play the Game of Earth Craft ! You then accrue an army of lower selves. A few examples would be the I who is respectful to my parents - the 'I' who mucks about with his friends - the 'I' who likes heavy metal - the 'I' who loves to be alone.........and on and on the list goes.

A never ending Game..........where religions and commercial shops battle to promote their respective brands !

 

[wicketkeeper]

I guess that depends upon where we get our ideas about heaven and hell in the first place. Unless they come from the Bible, they can mean pretty much anything. Even then, those who claim that their ideas come from the Bible, really haven't read it. Jesus said "heaven" is the place where his Father dwells (Matthew 6:9).....and "hell" (Greek hades, Hebrew sheol) is the common grave, where all humanity ends up. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) There are other terms rendered "hell" in most Bibles, (gehenna, lake of fire, tartarus) but these are totally misunderstood. No one "suffers" in the Bible's "hell".

I am always sorry to hear about addictions of any kind....they are usually indicative of a suffering soul needing medicine to make the pain go away. Unfortunately, an altered mental state induced by these drugs also makes people do things that makes God go away too. But if people reach out to him for help, he will supply the strongest power in the universe to support them, but all the effort has to be theirs. He will bless that effort.

Deeje, I read the Bible(the parts I have read) allegorically. I do not read it as llteral truth.
Jesus - Sun
12 Disciples - 12 Houses of the Zodiac.
Judas Iscariot - the Lower Self,

Shakespeare wrote that all of life is a stage, and each day we(through the Lower Self) provide the drama/comedy/joy/laughter etc etc. I do not think that any one religion holds all the answers, and for me God is not found within any book. God is Everything from the good, the bad and the ugly, warts and all.

As for my mother, I know what made her unhappy, but will name but two:-

Her ultra strict Catholic upbring in Belgium
Leaving Belgium to live in England

Blessings to y'all.

 

[godnotgod]

I want to know one thing: is this 'lower self' you equate with ego, real, and what is it's source?

Great question. Expanding further on matters relating to the 'lower self'. The source is.......whatever 'I' is writing your words.

Due to what is referred to as a Near Death Experience(NDE) which happened in my early teens I know for certain that I(Higher Self) have a body, but I am not the body; I have a mind and emotions/thoughts - however I am not the mind nor am I the emotions/thoughts.

The I(Higher Self) needs a physical body-mind vehicle in order to play the Game of Earth Craft ! You then accrue an army of lower selves. A few examples would be the I who is respectful to my parents - the 'I' who mucks about with his friends - the 'I' who likes heavy metal - the 'I' who loves to be alone.........and on and on the list goes.

A never ending Game..........where religions and commercial shops battle to promote their respective brands ![/QUOTE]

Yes, but it is all of these 'I''s that are none other than the Higher Self!

There is no 'I' writing words. There is only 'writing words' without a word-writer. 'I' is only an illusion.

Consciousness is writing words, but consciousness is not 'I'; mind is 'I', but mind is a self-created principle; also illusory. Only consciousness is real.

The game ends when consciousness awakens to it's true nature, and sees that the 'I' it was playing is fiction, in the same manner that the character in your dream vanishes upon your awakening from dream-sleep.

So really, there is no 'lower' or 'higher' self. These are just concoctions of the thinking mind.

 

[Deeje]

Deeje, I read the Bible(the parts I have read) allegorically. I do not read it as llteral truth.
Jesus - Sun
12 Disciples - 12 Houses of the Zodiac.
Judas Iscariot - the Lower Self,

I do not see them allegorically at all as I have no reason to. I believe that Jesus was a real person, his apostles were real men and that they taught people about a real kingdom that was going to re-establish the rulership of God on earth, as it was meant to be in the beginning.
We are real physical beings with real spiritual and physical needs.There are definitely many things that are pictorial, but they are usually easy to distinguish if you have a good grasp of scripture.

Shakespeare wrote that all of life is a stage, and each day we(through the Lower Self) provide the drama/comedy/joy/laughter etc etc. I do not think that any one religion holds all the answers, and for me God is not found within any book.

Many people hold the same view, but it is not one that has any meaning for me. I have experienced God in my life too many times for him to be the teller of fairy tales. If its in his word, I believe it simply because I believe that the Bible is God's primary mode of communication with the human race. It tells one story from Genesis to Revelation. What was lost at the start is regained at the end. Its not really more complicated than that. This earth is created for man and man for the earth. We are mortal, physical beings with a spiritual aspect to our nature. I don't see anything more mystical in us than that.

God is Everything from the good, the bad and the ugly, warts and all.

I believe that God is a real entity who is the creator of everything good, but the bad, the ugly and the warts all come from corrupt humans and rebellious angels.

As for my mother, I know what made her unhappy, but will name but two:-

Her ultra strict Catholic upbring in Belgium

That explains a lot. So many damaged souls from that place.

Leaving Belgium to live in England

Leaving one's homeland can be spiritually and emotionally traumatic, depending upon the circumstances of the exit.
My mother was a war bride and made the journey from England to Australia in 1943. She still regards England and Scotland as home, though she has lived in Australia most of her life. A piece of your heart always remains in the place of your birth.

Blessings to y'all.

And to you my friend.

 

[godnotgod]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

Then, there is the view of death from the East....no-birth...no-death....nothing to gain...nothing to lose..

 

[Deeje]

In Aramaic, the language it is mostly agreed upon amongst scholars which Yeshua spoke, and which is the language of the Pe-shi-tta, considered to be the original Bible written before the Greek NT, the passage reads:

hah geyr mal'kuw'theh da'lo'hah l'gaw men'kuwn iy

literally:

"Such thus the kingdom, his of the Alah; to from within you she be."

A mystic is one who goes within to find the divine nature.

http://pe****ta.org/for/archive/index.php?thread-1889.html
*****

Yeshua was a Nazarene, a sect of the Essenes.

Nazarene is the title by which Jesus and his followers were referred to. The word 'Christian' was never used by Jesus or used to describe those who followed him.
In the New Testament book of Acts, Paul is tried in Caesarea, and Tertullus is reported as saying:

"We have, in fact, found this man a pestilent fellow, an agitator among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5, New Revised Standard Version).

What is a Nazarene

A first-century Nazareth was non-existent, so Yeshua could not have been a Nazarene as it relates to his being a citizen of 'Nazareth'.

As far as I am aware, "Nazarene" is simply a description of a native of Nazareth. Describing the "sect of the Nazarenes" I believe, is acknowledging the followers of Jesus (as one coming from Nazareth) and him being the leader of this "sect" as some sort of breakaway from Judaism.

 

[godnotgod]

As far as I am aware, "Nazarene" is simply a description of a native of Nazareth. Describing the "sect of the Nazarenes" I believe, is acknowledging the followers of Jesus (as one coming from Nazareth) and him being the leader of this "sect" as some sort of breakaway from Judaism.

Might be the case if there actually was a 1st century Nazareth, but no such town actually existed in no record, on no map, in no archaeological find, not in the OT. All of a sudden, there are 24 mentions of it in Matthew. The historian Josephus, lived just one mile from what is present-day Nazareth in the town of Japha, and who had assembled a list of Galilean towns, none of which mentioned any such 'Nazareth'.

What is more likely is that 'Nazareth' was in reality a tent-city of thousands of people lived on the slopes of Mt. Carmel during that time, just 10 miles from present-day Nazareth. The Nazorean Essene monastery was atop the mountain, and its rules forbade any permanent dwelling to be built on it. This Essene sect was one of 3 at the time, and was a mystical sect, while the one at Qumran of Dead Sea Scrolls fame was an apocalyptic sect. The others in Greece and Egypt were Therapeutae, healers. The Nazorean sect was a family monastery, and it is reputed that Yeshua and his family lived there. Modern Essenes claim that the word 'Nazorean' is just another variation of the word 'Nazarene'.

Why would anyone refer to a group of inhabitants of Nazareth as belonging to a sect? And was it the case that all of the Nazarenes came just from Nazareth? I would guess that most of them came from the many Galilean towns.