If Jesus is God he sacrificed nothing for us.

[Milton Platt]

This is true. Unless it costs you something you have sacrificed nothing. The size of the sacrifice is relative as Jesus made clear....but the motive is more important.

Like 21:1-4:
"Now as he looked up, he saw the rich dropping their gifts into the treasury chests. 2 Then he saw a needy widow drop in two small coins of very little value, 3 and he said: “Truly I say to you that this poor widow put in more than they all did. 4 For all of these put in gifts out of their surplus, but she, out of her want, put in all the means of living she had.”



No one has ever shown me one scripture where either Jesus or his Father ever said that Jesus was God, or an equal of his Father. He is a begotten son. Those begotten need a begetter.

Jesus is not and never was Almighty God. This is not a Bible teaching.



Yes, he did.

Normal humans don't have a supernatural god as a father and do not get up out of the grave and cheat death. If the death was not real and permanent, it was not a valid sacrifice. Besides, what kind of god demands human sacrifices to appease his hurt feelings?

 

[Katzpur]

I dont know what LDS believe, though.

If god is god, how can he suffer?

Hey, Carlita! Long time no talk. Since I know that you love to learn, when I read your question to Scott, I immediately thought of this book.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Well, that's the point of being on RF to me is to learn. Unless you know about all christian denomination beliefs, which are different, I can just conclude you don't care not really that you know everything already.

If pointless, why bring them up? You know most god-arguments are practically the same. If you don't learn anything from it, like to different perspectives of looking at the same material, or just the interest in challenging people so they can see a new perspective, among many reasons, if the arguments about religion are pointless, why bring up pointless arguments and OPs?

Probably skip the religious threads and go on to a subject worth talking about?

How about I do me, and you can do you. Deal?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How about I do me, and you can do you. Deal?

I dont like stand stills and cut off conversations. If I dont understand something I challenge theblogic of the argument presented. I wont change my belief but that doesnt mean other beliefs arent logic just because they are not fact. Inknow it is logical why children have an imaginary friend even though that friend doesnt exist. Truh isnt dependant on logic.

So I question why you and hos you beliee what you do. I cant remember, are younchristian, muzlim?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I dont like stand stills and cut off conversations. If I dont understand something I challenge theblogic of the argument presented. I wont change my belief but that doesnt mean other beliefs arent logic just because they are not fact. Inknow it is logical why children have an imaginary friend even though that friend doesnt exist. Truh isnt dependant on logic.

So I question why you and hos you beliee what you do. I cant remember, are younchristian, muzlim?

The quality of your post shows me how little you actually care about what I have to think or say, and you are derailing my thread, so please remain on topic.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The quality of your post shows me how little you actually care about what I have to think or say, and you are derailing my thread, so please remain on topic.

Okay. I will repeat my reply to the OP. I didnt get an an answer related to my post.

If christianity is about jesus sacrifice and not salvation you are right. He sacrificed nothing.

You said you know christian belief and have nothing to learn from. Christianity, as I am agreeing wih deeje is about a ransom. He sacrificed his flesh because his flesh was humanity's sins. So by that action of sacrifice regardless his godliness it does mean something.

It means god took on human form to die in flesh (his flesh did feel pIain) to take on humans sins (his flesh) thereby dying in flesh to show christians to die as well.

His flesh died not his spirit. God became buman as in mainstream christianity, to take on humanity's sins (his flesh), to show how to live with god in flesh as a human. His flesh was hurt and his flesh died meaning christians sins xied on the cross. When jesus resurrected in spirit it shows christians they will have eternal life as well if they do whst jesus did in deed and faih.

If you knew this and he chridtian faith, you would not have asked the question and post he thread statement. I assume you want us to give you answerz and knrdge.

If you know it already, why create the thread?

The stupid ads are blocking half my screen. Thats why there are more typos than usual.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Okay. I will repeat my reply to the OP. I didnt get an an answer related to my post.

If christianity is about jesus sacrifice and not salvation you are right. He sacrificed nothing.

You said you know christian belief and have nothing to learn from. Christianity, as I am agreeing wih deeje is about a ransom. He sacrificed his flesh because his flesh was humanity's sins. So by that action of sacrifice regardless his godliness it does mean something.

It means god took on human form to die in flesh (his flesh did feel pIain) to take on humans sins (his flesh) thereby dying in flesh to show christians to die as well.

His flesh died not his spirit. God became buman as in mainstream christianity, to take on humanity's sins (his flesh), to show how to live with god in flesh as a human. His flesh was hurt and his flesh died meaning christians sins xied on the cross. When jesus resurrected in spirit it shows christians they will have eternal life as well if they do whst jesus did in deed and faih.

If you knew this and he chridtian faith, you would not have asked the question and post he thread statement. I assume you want us to give you answerz and knrdge.

If you know it already, why create the thread?

The stupid ads are blocking half my screen. Thats why there are more typos than usual.

"You said you know christian belief and have nothing to learn from. "

You need to learn how to read as well.

"He sacrificed nothing."

I agree, if God did not lose anything it is not really a sacrifice.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Just to clarify this thread is about the sacrifice. You can go on about the ransom all you want, but the topic of the thread is what did Jesus really lose, what did he give up. A symbolic death where Jesus does not really lose anything is not the same as an actual sacrifice.

 

[godnotgod]

Just to clarify this thread is about the sacrifice. You can go on about the ransom all you want, but the topic of the thread is what did Jesus really lose, what did he give up. A symbolic death where Jesus does not really lose anything is not the same as an actual sacrifice.

What Jesus allegedly did as 'sacrifice' is just one part of the equation. Sacrifice makes no sense in this case unless there was redemption of mankind's sins via the power of divine blood. So the real question is if blood has this power. As far as I am concerned, this is nothing more than a pagan belief. Both Judaism and Mithraism practiced blood sacrifice as a means of sin redemption and/or ritual cleansing.

So looking at the question this way, Jesus sacrificed his human life in order to save mankind via the redemptive power of his blood, all of which seems to be poppycock, in light of the fact that Jesus, or rather Yeshua, was crucified for treason and sedition on the one hand, and blasphemy on the other, the notion of 'blood sacrifice' having been superimposed over Yeshua's teachings later on.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

What Jesus allegedly did as 'sacrifice' is just one part of the equation. Sacrifice makes no sense in this case unless there was redemption of mankind's sins via the power of divine blood. So the real question is if blood has this power. As far as I am concerned, this is nothing more than a pagan belief. Both Judaism and Mithraism practiced blood sacrifice as a means of sin redemption and/or ritual cleansing.

So looking at the question this way, Jesus sacrificed his human life in order to save mankind via the redemptive power of his blood, all of which seems to be poppycock, in light of the fact that Jesus, or rather Yeshua, was crucified for treason and sedition on the one hand, and blasphemy on the other, the notion of 'blood sacrifice' having been superimposed over Yeshua's teachings later on.

Even in a blood sacrifice mortals, regular humans, give up something, if Jesus is a god then if he did "sacrifice" his "human life" he does not really lose it. Are we to say that now God can no longer have a human life, because he sacrificed it? If that is so then he is not all-powerful.

 

[godnotgod]

Well, that's the point of being on RF to me is to learn. Unless you know about all christian denomination beliefs, which are different, I can just conclude you don't care not really that you know everything already.

If pointless, why bring them up? You know most god-arguments are practically the same. If you don't learn anything from it, like to different perspectives of looking at the same material, or just the interest in challenging people so they can see a new perspective, among many reasons, if the arguments about religion are pointless, why bring up pointless arguments and OPs?

Probably skip the religious threads and go on to a subject worth talking about?

I dont like stand stills and cut off conversations. If I dont understand something I challenge theblogic of the argument presented. I wont change my belief but that doesnt mean other beliefs arent logic just because they are not fact. Inknow it is logical why children have an imaginary friend even though that friend doesnt exist. Truh isnt dependant on logic.

So I question why you and hos you beliee what you do. I cant remember, are younchristian, muzlim?

Understanding and insight can come as a result of direct seeing, without thought, into the true nature of things, short-circuiting both logic and belief. But this does not readily occur for most of us, as the discursive mind is forever churning, jumping from one idea to another. So for this kind of insight to occur, the thinking mind must first quiet down, so that the intuitive, or Big Mind, can then come into play.

 

[godnotgod]

Even in a blood sacrifice mortals, regular humans, give up something, if Jesus is a god then if he did "sacrifice" his "human life" he does not really lose it. Are we to say that now God can no longer have a human life, because he sacrificed it? If that is so then he is not all-powerful.

Jesus is often referred to as 'The Lamb of God', which points to the sacrificial lamb of Spring, signifying renewal via the shedding of innocent blood. In this sense, the sacrifice is not so much about what the host is giving up or losing, but about something pleasing or acceptable as payment for sin in the eyes of God. The point of the doctrine in this case is to re-open the Gates of Paradise which Adam & Eve closed via Original Sin. But the power to make this happen is in the blood. It is all about blood.

Throughout history, men have made many kinds of sacrifices to God in order to appease his anger over men's sins or to make pleasing offerings in thanksgiving. But then, the locusts and disease and death continued to come, so finally, the only acceptable host in the eyes of God was God himself.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Jesus is often referred to as 'The Lamb of God', which points to the sacrificial lamb of Spring, signifying renewal via the shedding of innocent blood. In this sense, the sacrifice is not so much about what the host is giving up or losing, but about something pleasing or acceptable as payment for sin in the eyes of God. The point of the doctrine in this case is to re-open the Gates of Paradise which Adam & Eve closed via Original Sin. But the power to make this happen is in the blood. It is all about blood.

Throughout history, men have made many kinds of sacrifices to God in order to appease his anger over men's sins or to make pleasing offerings in thanksgiving. But then, the locusts and disease and death continued to come, so finally, the only acceptable host in the eyes of God was God himself.

"Jesus is often referred to as 'The Lamb of God', which points to the sacrificial lamb"

So? And? What? That does not prove he sacrificed anything at all.

"signifying renewal"

Then it was symbolic and not a real sacrifice.

", but about something pleasing or acceptable as payment for sin in the eyes of God."

So to please this all loving god they had to kill God? And since Jesus came back from the dead, what is that a loop hole that he exploited? I mean if he comes back his life was never really in any danger and was not really sacrificed.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Let me do to this again. No insults. Ima do this in steps.

"You said you know christian belief and have nothing to learn from. "

1. You said that you can't learn from something that you know is not true. If you know the sacrifice is not true, what is the purpose of the thread?

It is not really learning something if it is not true.

Because I have not heard the Jesus/God story told a thousand and one different ways already.

If it isn't true, what type of answers where you looking for in this post if you don't believe the explanations of those who know the christian faith and/or experienced it?

You need to learn how to read as well.

Do not insult me. If you do not have the answers to my questions related to your OP, say so.

"He sacrificed nothing."

He did sacrifice something. If you read my posts, you will know what he sacrifice and know how it makes sense.

He sacrifice his flesh not his spirit.

Mainstream christianity broken down

a. God is the father
b. God came down as a perfect human being
c. As a human, he is christ and calls himself the "son of god" (illogical but that's not point)
d. God/jesus says he will take on the sins of the world to whomever believes in him
e. How? He sacrifices his flesh because his flesh is sins of humanity.
f. When he is resurrected, he is resurrected in spirit not in flesh. Flesh/sin does not live forever when one accepts christ. That is why the sacrifice means something and it is not illogical.

e. Sacrifice in christianity is defined as a ransom (something exchanged to save some one else) not a sacrifice to give something up one holds of value. If you get away from "jesus sacrificed himself" you will understand what christianity teaches.

f. Christianity (the OP does not teach christian doctrine) teaches that jesus sacrificed his flesh/humanity's sins to whomever believes in him, through his life, death, and resurrection they will have everlasting life.

The sacrifice was again his flesh. He gave up his human body in order to save others. It was a sacrifice because when god came down as flesh, he forsaken his "godliness" to be human and mirror human beings in their inherit temptation to sin.

e. His sacrifice is that god became human to save others.

My question

2. You said above he sacrified nothing. If you read my post in full, I said he did sacrifice something and it was worth something-that is what the point of a ransom and a sacrifice, you give up something of worth. That worth was god being flesh to die in the flesh, suffer in the flesh, so christians can live in spirit.

If you don't understand that, what you said above

Because I have not heard the Jesus/God story told a thousand and one different ways already.

If you had known the jesus/god story, you would not need to ask the question. You would know.

My other question is if you already know what jesus/god story believe regardless of what christians who experience this stuff first hand tell you, and you do not wish to learn from them, what is the point of your posts?.

Read this in full.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Let me do to this again. No insults. Ima do this in steps.



1. You said that you can't learn from something that you know is not true. If you know the sacrifice is not true, what is the purpose of the thread?





If it isn't true, what type of answers where you looking for in this post if you don't believe the explanations of those who know the christian faith and/or experienced it?



Do not insult me. If you do not have the answers to my questions related to your OP, say so.



He did sacrifice something. If you read my posts, you will know what he sacrifice and know how it makes sense.

He sacrifice his flesh not his spirit.

Mainstream christianity broken down

a. God is the father
b. God came down as a perfect human being
c. As a human, he is christ and calls himself the "son of god" (illogical but that's not point)
d. God/jesus says he will take on the sins of the world to whomever believes in him
e. How? He sacrifices his flesh because his flesh is sins of humanity.
f. When he is resurrected, he is resurrected in spirit not in flesh. Flesh/sin does not live forever when one accepts christ. That is why the sacrifice means something and it is not illogical.

e. Sacrifice in christianity is defined as a ransom (something exchanged to save some one else) not a sacrifice to give something up one holds of value. If you get away from "jesus sacrificed himself" you will understand what christianity teaches.

f. Christianity (the OP does not teach christian doctrine) teaches that jesus sacrificed his flesh/humanity's sins to whomever believes in him, through his life, death, and resurrection they will have everlasting life.

The sacrifice was again his flesh. He gave up his human body in order to save others. It was a sacrifice because when god came down as flesh, he forsaken his "godliness" to be human and mirror human beings in their inherit temptation to sin.

e. His sacrifice is that god became human to save others.

My question

2. You said above he sacrified nothing. If you read my post in full, I said he did sacrifice something and it was worth something-that is what the point of a ransom and a sacrifice, you give up something of worth. That worth was god being flesh to die in the flesh, suffer in the flesh, so christians can live in spirit.

If you don't understand that, what you said above



If you had known the jesus/god story, you would not need to answer the question. You would know.

My other question is if you already know what jesus/god story believe regardless of what christians who experience this stuff first hand tell you, and you do not wish to learn from them, what is the point of your posts?.

Read this in full.

"Let me do to this again. "

Do it as many times as you like, but as I have said to so many others I am only good for a few go arounds of the same issue. I know some of you like to beat the dead horse, but not me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Understanding and insight can come as a result of direct seeing, without thought, into the true nature of things, short-circuiting both logic and belief. But this does not readily occur for most of us, as the discursive mind is forever churning, jumping from one idea to another. So for this kind of insight to occur, the thinking mind must first quiet down, so that the intuitive, or Big Mind, can then come into play.

That sounds like a complicated way of saying if we quiet or minds, we will gain insight in knowledge and thought.

I don't think this happens in a lot of us whose culture is "on the go." Not all cultures are like this so they have more of a grasp at insight to knowledge (or big mind, I guess) than the rest of us do.

I don't like the me vs. them, though. We all are learning about how to gain knowledge and insight by quieting our minds. As well through age and experience, we will find its "nothing special." A good book Zen Mind Beginner's Mind" is a nice way to explain the simplicity of thoughts and motivations that other people make complicated.

Those are my views.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"Let me do to this again. "

Do it as many times as you like, but as I have said to so many others I am only good for a few go arounds of the same issue. I know some of you like to beat the dead horse, but not me.

If you don't accept our answers, what answers are you looking for?

God didn't sacrifice his spirit. He sacrified his flesh. It meant something because he gave up his godliness to experience the hurt as humans do. His being perfect has nothing to do with it because the focus is on his flesh dying to save other people. It doesn't matter if he is perfect or not.

If you don't believe that, then what is the point of the OP?

To ask us a question then say that we are wrong in one way or another? Or completely avoid the question or just drop the conversation?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Instead of arguing, please just reply to my reply to your OP.

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

Jesus did loose something. He lost his flesh. That was his sacrifice. Flesh doesnt live forever.

If I'm wrong, how so?

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

He sacrificed his flesh. His flesh doesn't live forever. Flesh/humanity's sins are not god (not an all-powerful being). So he let people crucify him and experience this to save others. He gave his human life to save others.

If you feel I'm wrong, how so?

If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

In my first reply to your post I agreed with you 100 percent. I don't know if you caught that.

However, what you are wrong about is what christianity teaches. It teaches jesus is a ransom. It does not teach jesus sacrifice was meant for him to die. It teaches jesus sacrifice was meant for people to live. The sacrifice was god becoming human, experiencing hurt as a human, and dying in the flesh as a human. He did die. In the flesh. He losed his flesh.

This teaches that christians need to loose their flesh in order to be with god in spirit.

If you don't understand this, how can you understand the answers we give you related to your OP?​

 

[Jeremiahcp]

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Jeremiahcp

What you are not understanding is god became human in order to suffer. So, as god, yes, he did suffer. And, yes, god as human did have something to loose: his flesh.

Yes, according to mainstream christianity, god can experience suffering as a human being.

Is that hard to understand or hard to accept as a mainstream christian teaching?

That and not all christians believe this.