If Jesus is God he sacrificed nothing for us.

[Scott C.]

Now I wanna question you. It's like that boulder thing. God can't submit to suffering given his nature is god. How can a god suffer?

Think about it. He would have to be human to suffer for humanity's sin because if he were god, he can't be around sin. That's a total contradiction "can't be near to sin and now I'm holding humanity's sins". Being human/god doesn't excuse him of this contradiction.

He has to be fully human and human only to get out of this contradiction

Saying god can't send a human to save christians is, well, questioning god's authority and what he can and cannot do.

I think I first need to understand who you believe Jesus to be and what he did for us and what is his relation to his Father.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Ok, but I respectfully believe that you will change your mind in this life or the next when you come to understand it better. No offense, just the way I see it.

No, I won't because that would be going against Virtue.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Honestly, I'm not sure to what extent, if any, Mormon thought deviates from other Christians on the subject. Mormons believe that the atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane and culminated on this cross. Jesus suffered every bit as much in Gethsemane as he did on the cross, yet he was alone and praying with no physical assault from anyone. I believe that he was turned over to the "buffetings of Satan" which caused him to suffer in body and spirit, causing him to bleed from every pour. I can't explain how this happened. He suffered that which people in hell suffer, which most would believe is not physical at all. There is clearly spiritual suffering in hell. For Jesus to atone for our sins, he had to experience and suffer All of that for us. It's easy to understand how a crucifixion inflicts pain, but the pains of Gethsemane and the spiritual suffering on the cross go beyond that. If we define the suffering of Christ as physical only, no matter how bad it was, I think there are others who have suffered even more. To me, it's critical that the atonement was far beyond anything any mortal has ever experienced or could experience.

Hmm. Learnt something new. (On RF! )

From personal experience, I never made a difference between physical and spiritual. If I suffer physically, in turn, I also do spiritually and visa versa. So, when I do say Jesus suffered physical death and that physical death saves christians from their sins, it means his physical death is all suffering.

In other words, the physical death is a visual image of a spiritual suffering.

Does that make sense?

 

[Scott C.]

"The law of justice could only be satisfied if God himself suffered for the sins of all humanity, an eternal punishment."

An all-powerful God is not bound by laws of justice.

Oh but he is.

 

[Scott C.]

No, I won't because that would be going against Virtue.

Yeah I get it. You don't like the atonement... for now.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yeah I get it. You don't like the atonement... for now.

Please stop talking to me like that, I find it offensive. I don't believe in your religion and I'm confident death isn't going to change that. Get over it.

 

[Scott C.]

Hmm. Learnt something new. (On RF! )

From personal experience, I never made a difference between physical and spiritual. If I suffer physically, in turn, I also do spiritually and visa versa. So, when I do say Jesus suffered physical death and that physical death saves christians from their sins, it means his physical death is all suffering.

In other words, the physical death is a visual image of a spiritual suffering.

Does that make sense?

Sure, I understand your point of view. But, do you believe that others have suffered as much or more than Jesus, given his form of execution? And if so, does that cause you a problem, that Jesus did not suffer more than anyone has ever suffered?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Oh but he is.

Then the law is more powerful than God and God is not the supreme force in the universe.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think I first need to understand who you believe Jesus to be and what he did for us and what is his relation to his Father.

I dont think so. Its like any other subject.

But I am around mainstream christian folk so I have a bible scriptura brain but had the heart of a Catholic. So most my spiritual outlook in Christianity is from a Catholic perspective. A lot of debates and things I studied still hang on to studying the bible from a mainstream view since Catholicism doesn't push to reading the bible before going to Mass.

I dont know what LDS believe, though.

If god is god, how can he suffer?
If god can't be around sin, how can he hold the sins of the world?

God has sent many of prophets down the line and Jesus was said to be the highest prophet. Given that and many verses that points to him being human, as a human sent by god, why would he not be able to carry the sins of humanity? What about him being human excludes him from holding humanity's sins when god gave him the strength to handle what christians believe they cant?

 

[Scott C.]

Please stop talking to me like that, I find it offensive. I don't believe in your religion and I'm confident death isn't going to change that. Get over it.

Ok, sorry. I don't know your personality and should not have assumed I could push that button without offense. Note to self.

 

[Scott C.]

Then the law is more powerful than God and God is not the supreme force in the universe.

Come on. You're doing the "boulder" thing again. God wants the law of justice and mercy to function exactly as they do. He wants there to be law, punishment, atonement, repentance, and mercy. He follows his own rules because they are righteous and necessary. To do any less, would be to not be God at all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sure, I understand your point of view. But, do you believe that others have suffered as much or more than Jesus, given his form of execution? And if so, does that cause you a problem, that Jesus did not suffer more than anyone has ever suffered?

Yes. I believe many people have suffered spiritually and physically more than jesus and still do. I know people who suffer from what we call simple things but to others it's not like christ who can walk away after being crucified but for them (like the OP is saying), it's a true sacrifice and hardship on them.

If jesus is god, I can never see him suffer not even close to what other people have suffered. If he isn't god, I would still say he suffered I just know that others have suffered a lot more than a cross and a pain in the heart.

It doesn't cause me a problem. I just find it weird that jesus would be put at such a high standard of suffering compared to others regardless if he is god or not.

 

[Scott C.]

I dont think so. Its like any other subject.

But I am around mainstream christian folk so I have a bible scriptura brain but had the heart of a Catholic. So most my spiritual outlook in Christianity is from a Catholic perspective. A lot of debates and things I studied still hang on to studying the bible from a mainstream view since Catholicism doesn't push to reading the bible before going to Mass.

I dont know what LDS believe, though.

If god is god, how can he suffer?
If god can't be around sin, how can he hold the sins of the world?

God has sent many of prophets down the line and Jesus was said to be the highest prophet. Given that and many verses that points to him being human, as a human sent by god, why would he not be able to carry the sins of humanity? What about him being human excludes him from holding humanity's sins when god gave him the strength to handle what christians believe they cant?

My belief is that the Bible teaches that Jesus was and is God. I know the JW's see Jesus as less than God, but nevertheless still our Savior who died for us. I believe that the sacrifice had to be without blemish, meaning sinless. Only Jesus lived a sinless life. I can't say it's logically impossible for God to send a mortal man to die for our sins; it's just that I don't believe that is what the scriptures teach.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My belief is that the Bible teaches that Jesus was and is God. I know the JW's see Jesus as less than God, but nevertheless still our Savior who died for us. I believe that the sacrifice had to be without blemish, meaning sinless. Only Jesus lived a sinless life. I can't say it's logically impossible for God to send a mortal man to die for our sins; it's just that I don't believe that is what the scriptures teach.

If you believed jesus is human, it would be more easier to understand, I think. As god, though, I can't understand it. I feel the scriptures teach that jesus is human with a relationship with his father other christians do not have in full. I also read in scripture that jesus doesn't point to himself as the source of all knowledge but says he is a medium to that source which excludes him from being the source itself. Can't be a medium to yourself. Scripture also teaches about the Passion and each part of the passion and what it means. Going through it physically in the Church was a eye opener that no "spiritual but not religious" lesson could teach me.

I personally understand god being jesus as in Hebrews famous verse "visible image of an invisible god" only because as an image of someone, if you are a human image of god, why not his crucificition be a physical image of spiritual sin dying on the cross. That's what the whole Passion is about. If it were all spiritual then he wouldn't need to die. God could just wave his finger and all would be cured (and that would have saved a lot of people's time and lives). But the physical is very important in scripture.

Why do many christians discount the physical nature of this world and in scripture when all in scripture there is always a relationship between something physical whether it was animals, blood, food, miracles like walking on water, and so have you? There was no separation.

 

[Scott C.]

If you believed jesus is human, it would be more easier to understand, I think. As god, though, I can't understand it. I feel the scriptures teach that jesus is human with a relationship with his father other christians do not have in full. I also read in scripture that jesus doesn't point to himself as the source of all knowledge but says he is a medium to that source which excludes him from being the source itself. Can't be a medium to yourself. Scripture also teaches about the Passion and each part of the passion and what it means. Going through it physically in the Church was a eye opener that no "spiritual but not religious" lesson could teach me.

I personally understand god being jesus as in Hebrews famous verse "visible image of an invisible god" only because as an image of someone, if you are a human image of god, why not his crucificition be a physical image of spiritual sin dying on the cross. That's what the whole Passion is about. If it were all spiritual then he wouldn't need to die. God could just wave his finger and all would be cured (and that would have saved a lot of people's time and lives). But the physical is very important in scripture.

Why do many christians discount the physical nature of this world and in scripture when all in scripture there is always a relationship between something physical whether it was animals, blood, food, miracles like walking on water, and so have you? There was no separation.

I can tell you're a thoughtful person. I don't mean to exclude the physical suffering. I just don't see it as "enough" for an infinite atonement. In the LDS Church we have a verse that specifically says Christ suffered in body and spirit. So that's where my thoughts come from. Also, in a way I believe that the LDS concept of the Trinity answers some of your thoughts. Since Jesus was a mortal, you see him as separate from God. As a Mormon, I see Jesus as separate from his Father. When he referred to his Father, he was indeed referring to a person separate from himself. But, I still give Jesus a God status, even though he is separate from the Father. Their "oneness" is more metaphorical than literal. (Although no matter how I describe it someone will pick at my choice of words).

 

[Repox]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

• I believe Jesus was God. He came into the world to give testimony to his chosen people. After he had finished giving testimony, "the beast (Satan) that comes from the abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them." (Rev. 11:7). Because God is a duality, Revelation 11 about the two witnesses is the correct story. Jesus was not father and son, He was a duality. I know no one believes my interpretation, but, nevertheless, there it is, something to ponder.
• Also, Jesus didn't die on the cross. He was beaten to death by a Roman soldier. I learned about his death from a dream.
• He may have sacrificed in vain because His followers didn't understand who he really was. Nevertheless, he fulfilled his promise to chosen people.
• There it is, the real story about Jesus (God).

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Come on. You're doing the "boulder" thing again. God wants the law of justice and mercy to function exactly as they do. He wants there to be law, punishment, atonement, repentance, and mercy. He follows his own rules because they are righteous and necessary. To do any less, would be to not be God at all.

"You're doing the "boulder" thing again."

No, you are. I didn't make these silly rules. If there is a law God cannot break then it is more powerful than he is.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I think when you get right down to it, the whole God and Jesus story just has a lot of holes.

 

[Scott C.]

"You're doing the "boulder" thing again."

No, you are. I didn't make these silly rules. If there is a law God cannot break then it is more powerful than he is.

God is one with his laws, his word, and his promises. He doesn't break the laws that he makes, he doesn't lie, and he always keeps his promise. We have a scripture in the LDS Church which says:

"I the Lord am bound when ye do what I say, but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise." In other words if God promises us to do something, contingent on our behavior, then he is bound to do what he says. He voluntarily binds himself to being a God of integrity.

For example, God would not tell us at the judgment day that he was just kidding about the atonement and everyone is going to hell. That would make him a liar. I guess you could say that this makes him subject to his own word. Then you could say that God's word is greater than God. Then you could say that God is therefore not the greatest. Well that's fun philosophical and logical gymnastics, but it does not change the fact that the omnipotent God never lies.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

God is one with his laws, his word, and his promises. He doesn't break the laws that he makes, he doesn't lie, and he always keeps his promise. We have a scripture in the LDS Church which says:

"I the Lord am bound when ye do what I say, but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise." In other words if God promises us to do something, contingent on our behavior, then he is bound to do what he says. He voluntarily binds himself to being a God of integrity.

"We have a scripture in the LDS Church which says:"

Let me stop you right there. I am sorry, but that will not convince me of anything.