If Jesus is God he sacrificed nothing for us.

[beenherebeforeagain]

I think people want to say Jesus was both not a god and a god at the same time. But if you embrace that logical absurdity then all logical absurdities concerning the all-powerful become equally valid; such as: Can God create a boulder so big even he could not lift it?

that's what the first few hundred years of the church was--trying to figure out these difficult theological questions

 

[Scott C.]

Going off the claim jesus is god, god suffered because he was human. Humans can suffer. He did suffer as a human not as god. In other words, his flesh was temporary and suffered but his nature was in full communion with his father. His flesh suffered not his spirit.

But I believe his suffering went far beyond the physical. There are many people who have suffered deaths which arguably would be more physically painful than what Jesus suffered. Yet the suffering of Jesus needed to be eternal or infinite. Clearly it involved suffering of the soul. IMO.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

that's what the first few hundred years of the church was--trying to figure out these difficult theological questions

I call it: wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I call it: wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

you'll have to take it up with the orthodox and catholic churches

 

[Scott C.]

"The "big boulder" question is a fun one. It's not exactly the same as "is it possible for an omnipotent God to suffer?""

The question is not can he suffer, but can he lose something. A sacrifice means you give up something, if an all-powerful being give ups something then he is not all powerful. As long as he is all powerful he can not make a true sacrifice. Jesus could have only made a sacrifice if he gave up his divinity. Otherwise it is all just a show.

Ok, that changed the question. I thought we were discussing if it's possible for God to suffer. Did you change it because you conceded my point or did I misunderstand the original question?

I agree that Jesus lost nothing in the long term. He is the God in heaven and he did that which was necessary while on earth. He suffered immensely for humanity and is now happy in heaven. The scriptures call it a sacrifice so I will too.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

But I believe his suffering went far beyond the physical. There are many people who have suffered deaths which arguably would be more physically painful than what Jesus suffered. Yet the suffering of Jesus needed to be eternal or infinite. Clearly it involved suffering of the soul. IMO.

I see, you cannot accept the idea that someone might have made a greater sacrifice than Jesus so you have to hyperbolize.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here is the difference @Jeremiahcp :

Scenario 1 (OP focus): Pretend I am a mother and I am god. My daughter is drowning, I jump in to save her by dying in her place. (The decision is on my behalf-that is why it is a sacrifice)

I know. I know. I didn't really die. But the point of christianity is that the child was saved.

2. Scenario 2: I am a daughter (a human) and I have a child. My child is drowning. I don't want to die since I am human. My mother says I need to save the child. So, obeying my mother, I save the child sacrificing my human life for the life of the child.

The decision was made on behalf of my mother. So it was a ransom. My dying to save my child became a ransom of my life (another form of sacrifice) for that child to live.

The OP is looking at this wrong.

Look at the sacrifice as a ransom. If you look at it by sacrificing oneself for another, godliness has nothing to do with it.

If you are only concerned about jesus, then you are right, it isn't a sacrifice.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Ok, that changed the question. I thought we were discussing if it's possible for God to suffer. Did you change it because you conceded my point or did I misunderstand the original question?

I agree that Jesus lost nothing in the long term. He is the God in heaven and he did that which was necessary while on earth. He suffered immensely for humanity and is now happy in heaven. The scriptures call it a sacrifice so I will too.

"Did you change it because you conceded my point or did I misunderstand the original question?"

This was part of the OP: "If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"humans do not die"

Put a gun to a Christian's head and ask him if he wants to live or die. Even if they believe in the afterlife, most still very much believe they can die. Jesus came back from the dead, no human can do that and if you can come back from the dead you are not mortal.

Christians believe they are spirit. They are afraid of physical death. That's why it was a sacrifice because the human side of us (so christian view) is afraid of death. Their flesh isn't realizing that they will come back just as jesus if they sacrificed themselves for the body of christ as jesus died in his life.

 

[Scott C.]

I see, you cannot accept the idea that someone might have made a greater sacrifice than Jesus so you have to hyperbolize.

I don't know why you said that. This is Atonement 101. You may not believe it, but it's fundamental Christian thought that Jesus suffered both body and soul, the degree to which only a God could handle. The law of justice could only be satisfied if God himself suffered for the sins of all humanity, an eternal punishment. You can't get that degree of suffering from a cross and nails alone. I didn't make this up. It's what at least Mormons believe. I guess I need to look further to see if it's common with most other Christians.

 

[Scott C.]

"Did you change it because you conceded my point or did I misunderstand the original question?"

This was part of the OP: "If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing."

Are you OK then with the idea that an all powerful God can voluntarily submit to suffering?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But I believe his suffering went far beyond the physical. There are many people who have suffered deaths which arguably would be more physically painful than what Jesus suffered. Yet the suffering of Jesus needed to be eternal or infinite. Clearly it involved suffering of the soul. IMO.

Unless jesus is god, how can his soul suffer?

Wouldn't god's suffering be defined differently than humans?

and if jesus was "fully human" how could he suffer differently than we do?

 

[arthra]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.
If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.
If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

In my belief Jesus was somewhere between God and us humans.. His heart was like a perfect mirror that reflected the attributes of God perfectly to the humans around Him. Physically He was human... He felt all the pain and insults possible and suffered the brutality of the established religion and state... Why would He do this? So we .. human beings might be enlightened and empowered to do God's Will.

"It is for this purpose (that is, it is with regard to this wisdom) that the great Manifestations (of God) unveil themselves in this world, bear every difficulty and ordeal -- to make these ready souls dawnings of light and confer upon them eternal life. His holiness Christ made-He sacrificed Himself for the life of the world."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3, p. 542)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe that Jesus suffered eternal pain in the atonement, more pain and suffering than can be attributed to a physical crucifixion. His Father withdrew his mitigating or strengthening influence and turned his Son over to the full pains of eternal hell. This went far beyond the pain of the cross and nails, as painful as those were. I believe that it was a sacrifice for the God of heaven, who has all power, to go far beyond anything any person has or will suffer, in order to pay Justice her dues for our sins.

Penal substitution is the most disgusting of all the atonement theories. I would never ask an innocent person to die for me or act as if it was some great thing.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Are you OK then with the idea that an all powerful God can voluntarily submit to suffering?

No. If God can be hurt, then God is no god.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you OK then with the idea that an all powerful God can voluntarily submit to suffering?

Now I wanna question you. It's like that boulder thing. God can't submit to suffering given his nature is god. How can a god suffer?

Think about it. He would have to be human to suffer for humanity's sin because if he were god, he can't be around sin. That's a total contradiction "can't be near to sin and now I'm holding humanity's sins". Being human/god doesn't excuse him of this contradiction.

He has to be fully human and human only to get out of this contradiction

Saying god can't send a human to save christians is, well, questioning god's authority and what he can and cannot do.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I don't know why you said that. This is Atonement 101. You may not believe it, but it's fundamental Christian thought that Jesus suffered both body and soul, the degree to which only a God could handle. The law of justice could only be satisfied if God himself suffered for the sins of all humanity, an eternal punishment. You can't get that degree of suffering from a cross and nails alone. I didn't make this up. It's what at least Mormons believe. I guess I need to look further to see if it's common with most other Christians.

"The law of justice could only be satisfied if God himself suffered for the sins of all humanity, an eternal punishment."

An all-powerful God is not bound by laws of justice.

 

[Scott C.]

Unless jesus is god, how can his soul suffer?

Wouldn't god's suffering be defined differently than humans?

and if jesus was "fully human" how could he suffer differently than we do?

Honestly, I'm not sure to what extent, if any, Mormon thought deviates from other Christians on the subject. Mormons believe that the atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane and culminated on this cross. Jesus suffered every bit as much in Gethsemane as he did on the cross, yet he was alone and praying with no physical assault from anyone. I believe that he was turned over to the "buffetings of Satan" which caused him to suffer in body and spirit, causing him to bleed from every pour. I can't explain how this happened. He suffered that which people in hell suffer, which most would believe is not physical at all. There is clearly spiritual suffering in hell. For Jesus to atone for our sins, he had to experience and suffer All of that for us. It's easy to understand how a crucifixion inflicts pain, but the pains of Gethsemane and the spiritual suffering on the cross go beyond that. If we define the suffering of Christ as physical only, no matter how bad it was, I think there are others who have suffered even more. To me, it's critical that the atonement was far beyond anything any mortal has ever experienced or could experience.

 

[Scott C.]

Penal substitution is the most disgusting of all the atonement theories. I would never ask an innocent person to die for me or act as if it was some great thing.

Ok, but I respectfully believe that you will change your mind in this life or the next when you come to understand it better. No offense, just the way I see it.

 

[Scott C.]

No. If God can be hurt, then God is no god.

Ok, I did my best to explain my POV.