If Jesus is God he sacrificed nothing for us.

[Scott C.]

"We have a scripture in the LDS Church which says:"

Let me stop you right there. I am sorry, but that will not convince me of anything.

I thought you might want to learn something new. My mistake.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I thought you might want to learn something new. My mistake.

I am sorry I don't believe in your religion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yeah. I believe that physical suffering constitutes the "enough" part. For example, I can pray to my grandmothers all day and night but nothing beats actually going to my grandmother's place of rest and spending time with her. When I prayed the rosary, I could do that in my head but actually having the physical beads gave the prayer somewhat of an umph. I wouldn't say I'm the opposite of what you're saying just I put a lot of value on the physical. It makes the difference between Jesus saying to you "I love you" compared to him actually doing the action and you are experiencing it by your senses as well. Many people believe jesus in their heart but when you take communion with the body of christ his literal body and blood (aka humanity/body of christ since we are flesh and blood coming together) then it takes on a different role then a short prayer, sip, and that's it.

The temporary makes you have more gratitude for what you know you can't have for eternity compared to disregarding the importance of the physical at equal interconnection with the spiritual and thinking we will live forever. It defeats the purpose of jesus dying when you look backwards from his resurrection then his death, then his life.

Anyway.

Since Jesus was a mortal, you see him as separate from God. As a Mormon, I see Jesus as separate from his Father.

God is the father. How can jesus be separate from his father? Jesus whole passion was for him to be a medium for you to be with his father; and, the only way to do that, I would guess, is that jesus would have to have a relationship with his father in full to fulfill that role as a savior.

Yes, he is a mortal or human. I don't see that as a barrier for his purpose and relationship with his father, though.

But, I still give Jesus a God status, even though he is separate from the Father. Their "oneness" is more metaphorical than literal. (Although no matter how I describe it someone will pick at my choice of words).

Jesus sharing the oneness of the father is like father to son. It's a family unit. It's not hard to understand just for many christians hard to live. A lot of you give jesus such a high status that, in some of my friends, I wonder if they can survive without jesus. Dependency is different than relationship.

As for it being metaphorical, I side with Catholics on this one. When christ is one with his father it means that the body of christ (The Church-however defined by denomi) is one with the father.

It means all christians not specifically Catholics are all one with the father through jesus. I don't think that's metaphorical, right?

But we have different perspectives.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am sorry I don't believe in your religion.

I don't either, but it is always great to learn something, right?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I don't either, but it is always great to learn something, right?

It is not really learning something if it is not true.

 

[Scott C.]

Interesting convo's here. But goodnight for now.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is not really learning something if it is not true.

It isn't?

That is weird. I learned a lot from fictional things. A lot of it are a reflection of how people see life. But I'm an artist; so, I can't relate to that.

If you can only learn things that are true, then that limits a lot of things that may be of interest regardless of whether you agree with it or not. It's not just religion. Any topic.

 

[Deeje]

I think when you get right down to it, the whole God and Jesus story just has a lot of holes.

Its not the story that has holes, but it's the various interpretations of it. Perhaps we should just allow scripture to speak for itself without putting words in Jesus' mouth.

Find me one statement from either God or his Christ that puts the son on equal footing with his God and Father. I can save you the time....there is not one.

Jesus is not God, but is what he called himself...."the son of God"...the unique "firstborn" or "only begotten". (monogenes) There are other "sons of God" but none like him.

Also there is also the misunderstanding about "everlasting life" and "immortality"....they are not the same thing.

Originally, there was only one immortal being.....the Creator himself. He created his "firstborn son" as a unique being (Revelation 3:14).....he was a spirit creature who had no natural cause of death, but he was not immortal. This means that Jesus as well as all of God's other "sons" enjoyed everlasting life, not immortality. An immortal being cannot die. Spirit creatures can die.The spirit being that became Jesus Christ was not immortal and died the same kind of death that every other human experiences.

As a mortal spirit being, God transferred the lifeforce of his firstborn son into the womb of a human woman and genetically engineered a perfect human specimen who was the exact equivalent of Adam. Jesus did not have to be God to provide the ransom...all he needed to be was sinless. God's law was "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life."

Adam paid for his own sin with his own life, but having passed on sin and death genetically to all his children, God's law demanded equivalency. A life had to be given for a life, but there was no one sinless to atone for the perfect sinless life that Adam lost for his children. Jesus volunteered to pay that ransom to free us from the eternal cycle of sin and death passed on to us through no fault on our part.
Love motivated him to do that.

He willingly gave his human life to set us free. That is what a redeemer does....he pays the debt to free a slave.

 

[Electus de Lumine]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

Indeed, the narrative Yahweh gave to the Christians was bad enough.

He had claimed that he was so angry at people exercising their free-will that he needed a sacrifice to be appeased, and so he desired his own son as this sacrifice.

What many modern Christians have usually come to believe is that Yahweh had himself become a man so he could sacrifice himself to appease a rule he made himself after praying to himself for another way.........

 

[Jeremiahcp]

It isn't?

That is weird. I learned a lot from fictional things. A lot of it are a reflection of how people see life. But I'm an artist; so, I can't relate to that.

If you can only learn things that are true, then that limits a lot of things that may be of interest regardless of whether you agree with it or not. It's not just religion. Any topic.

Because I have not heard the Jesus/God story told a thousand and one different ways already.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because I have not heard the Jesus/God story told a thousand and one different ways already.

It's only topics you heard thousands of times? Regardless if it's religious?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

It's only topics you heard thousands of times? Regardless if it's religious?

I am sure you are on about something or other, but the point is scripture will not convince me and I lose interest really fast in pointless arguments. I am sure you think every stone is a wondered to be discovered, but I know some stones are not worth the time.

 

[wizanda]

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

This is why you should always read religious texts for yourself, and not assume in a world of corruption people have it right:

Yeshua wasn't a sacrifice, and "asked for mercy, and not sacrifice, and if they knew what that meant, they wouldn't condemn the innocent" (Matthew 12:7 + Matthew 9:13)....

In the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19), it stated those who kill the son, thinking they get free inheritance thru it, shall be condemned by God.

It is only the false texts that came after by John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros), that have created this sin sacrifice ideology; which the early churches stood against.

This is why in Revelation 3:9 it says they're following the Synagogue of Satan, as all the faulty atonement idea comes from the Pharisees.

 

[ensnaturae]

If you don't lose anything then you sacrificed nothing.

If God is an all-powerful being, and Jesus is God then he sacrificed nothing on the cross.

If Jesus was just a normal human then he sacrificed everything for us.

I have thought a lot about ways to attempt to "say" Jesus, in easier to understand words, that make it clear that any magic/mystery/metaphysics contained in religious reports, do nothing to destroy or enhance the intrinsic truth. "Sacrifice" an ongoing interpretation of the life and death of Jesus, seems to me to be irrelevant. A god that required a human sacrifice, likewise, irrelevant. Sacrifice, of animals and humans, was a practice of the most ancient religious rites, placating deities, over millions of years, and included in the story of Jesus by religious dogmatic practice. Jesus was not a sacrifice. God did not require a sacrifice. The sensation/consciousness/mind and body state...called 'Love, loving', can and will be understood, known, by anyone who can fully understand the life and Love of Jesus.
Now, the intense, astonishing force of Love, is a mystery, that cannot be "said". Jesus lived it, and in all his prayers, acts, deeds, joys and ultimately pain, (born for Loves sake alone), gave that same Love to the world. The force of it, was then and remains, immense, indestructible. Consider his life, as much of it as is reported, and the lives of all those who seem to you to be touched by it...think about that. Imagine the problems encountered by anyone living a whole life given to " love and loving"..quite alone, perfectly alone, except for a bond with Love itself..that requires real knowledge of Love, not a vague faith or religious practice, when certain death, torture, hate rejection, may be the likely result.
When you can see and know the Love that Jesus lived, then the full force of the truth of it may strike you too. The question ..how and why did Jesus come to be? The answer is that Love and its colossal power was always "there", always in the cosmos as much as we can understand of it. Not seeing, not understanding, is natural, but so is the revelation and epiphany in the discovery of it. The pearl of immense value that is more astonishing, more precious than anything else, anyone can imagine. Death and pain are defeated by it.

 

[godnotgod]

It is only the false texts that came after by John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros), that have created this sin sacrifice ideology; which the early churches stood against.

Yes. It was Yeshua the Nazarene* who died on the cross for the crimes of treason and sedition on the one hand, and blasphemy on the other. The Nazarenes held no doctrine of blood sacrifice, virgin birth, nor bodily resurrection as being valid. These doctrines came from MIthra, which Paul cleverly overwrote over Yeshua's authentic teachings as a device to convert tens of thousands of pagans into the new religion, thereby creating the modern myth of an atoning Jesus, the sacrificial 'Lamb of God', whose divine blood had redeeming power over sin. Yeshua was a man of the East, where the life force is in the breath, and not in the blood.

Paul and the Mystery Religions

*Nazarenes were a Jewish mystical cult of the Nazorean Essenes, whose family monastery was located atop Mt. Carmel, just 10 miles outside of modern day Nazareth. There was no 1st Century Nazareth at the time of Yeshua.

 

[wizanda]

Peace GodnotGod, thank you the reply,

*Nazarenes were a Jewish mystical cult of the Nazorean Essenes

Don't know about the word 'cult'; Nazar as you maybe know means 'to be separated (to God)', like within the terminology Nazarite... Nazar + Essene = Nazarene.

So personally would say they were more similar to the true tribe of Israel, and why Yeshua came to cut off all the false Leaders of the Jews.

 

[ensnaturae]

This is why you should always read religious texts for yourself, and not assume in a world of corruption people have it right:

Yeshua wasn't a sacrifice, and "asked for mercy, and not sacrifice, and if they knew what that meant, they wouldn't condemn the innocent" (Matthew 12:7 + Matthew 9:13)....

In the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19), it stated those who kill the son, thinking they get free inheritance thru it, shall be condemned by God.

It is only the false texts that came after by John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros), that have created this sin sacrifice ideology; which the early churches stood against.

This is why in Revelation 3:9 it says they're following the Synagogue of Satan, as all the faulty atonement idea comes from the Pharisees.

Yes ...Jesus was not a sacrifice!
The whole crime and punishment, threat and promise scenario, that has kept billions of people enslaved by religious organisations, has no connection to the truth called 'Love'. There are no good words available to write about it! The person, the ordinary bloke , of 'Jesus' who knew the truth of Love, is now and forever, today, as ever...up against immense forces of darkness. Violence, hate. Anyone who *sees* Jesus clearly, recognises the truth, might say, "hey! He had it right! That's it!! Death and pain might be terrifying, but love transcends the fear and pain".
The courage required ..maybe to face life and possibly death too, knowing the love that Jesus lived, and that he was and remains .."real"...is enough to take anyone through terrible suffering. Love forgives, love comforts, is a kind of *built in*...just look for it, look for Jesus, in ones own human nature. I don't know if it is in every living creature, perhaps it is.

 

[godnotgod]

Peace GodnotGod, thank you the reply,

Don't know about the word 'cult'; Nazar as you maybe know means 'to be separated (to God)', like within the terminology Nazarite... Nazar + Essene = Nazarene.

So personally would say they were more similar to the true tribe of Israel, and why Yeshua came to cut off all the false Leaders of the Jews.

Thanks. Should have substituted the word 'sect' in lieu of 'cult'.

 

[rstrats]

Deeje,

re: "Jesus volunteered to pay that ransom to free us from the eternal cycle of sin and death...Love motivated him to do that."



Mark 14:36 seems to suggest that it wasn't love for mankind, but rather love for His Father; " And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am sure you are on about something or other, but the point is scripture will not convince me and I lose interest really fast in pointless arguments. I am sure you think every stone is a wondered to be discovered, but I know some stones are not worth the time.

Well, that's the point of being on RF to me is to learn. Unless you know about all christian denomination beliefs, which are different, I can just conclude you don't care not really that you know everything already.

If pointless, why bring them up? You know most god-arguments are practically the same. If you don't learn anything from it, like to different perspectives of looking at the same material, or just the interest in challenging people so they can see a new perspective, among many reasons, if the arguments about religion are pointless, why bring up pointless arguments and OPs?

Probably skip the religious threads and go on to a subject worth talking about?