JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
Well, I read genesis and God tells Noah 120 years prior build a boat this big no bigger suggests no one can change their mind for the ride.
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If Jesus returned to this world, how would you know it was Jesus?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Well, I read genesis and God tells Noah 120 years prior build a boat this big no bigger suggests no one can change their mind for the ride.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But that does not mean that God controls people and makes their decisions for them.God is in control.
God is in control, what does that mean?
JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
But that does not mean that God controls people and makes their decisions for them.
God is in control, what does that mean?
God controlled the pharaoh, right?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Of course God knew what would happen in the future because the essential knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things, before they transpire in this world.
Do you really want to get into a debate about fate vs. free will? I have such a discussion going on with an atheist on another thread.
“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.
The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.
God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133
In short, there is an irrevocable fate and that is never altered by God, even though God could alter it if He chose to. But there is also an impending fate and that can be altered by God if God chooses to alter it, if we pray and supplicate to God. It would also logically follow that if we change our minds what was predestined (fated) by God might not occur if God allows our impending fate to be altered.
We have to do what we are fated to do, but God does not cause us to do it, we choose to do it. God is all-knowing so God knows everything we will ever do, but we choose to do what God knows we will do.
“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150
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JoshuaTree
Flowers are red?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Old? I am about nine years older than you are and I just keep going, like a wind-up doll.Do I? Well yeah!
Not that I expect everyone to be like me. I am highly motivated about religion and God because I am making up for lost time.
You read that post before I went back and edited it. Here is what I edited it to say:
In short, there is an irrevocable fate and that is never altered by God, even though God could alter it if He chose to. But there is also an impending fate and that can be altered by God if God chooses to alter it, if we pray and supplicate to God. It would also logically follow that if we change our minds what was predestined (fated) by God might not occur if God allows our impending fate to be altered.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Did you mean there will be no Christians on the earth? I make a ton of typos.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
All of the 2.4 billion Christians will be with Jesus when he returns? How does that work?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sorry, I did not mean to pressure you.Do I? Well yeah!
Bear Wild
Well-Known Member
Most Christians are waiting for Jesus to return, although they do not all agree on when or how He will return, but if a man came claiming to be Jesus how would you know it was really Jesus? After all, there are no photos of what Jesus looked like when He walked the earth 2000 years ago.
Anyone can claim that he is the return of Jesus and that is no doubt why Jesus gave this warning to His disciples:
Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Jesus was right, because many men have come claiming to be Jesus
List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia
So how would you know if a man who claimed to be Jesus was really Jesus? What would he have to do to prove to you that He was Jesus?
(This is mostly for Christians, but anyone can answer it.
This could be a problem especially if Jesus came back as a Raven or Stag for instance.
"Oh look at that magnificent stag. I want that head on my wall" says the one with the rifle.
"Wait that could be Jesus come back as a Stag" Said the other
"To late I already killed him." says the one with the rifle.
If god can do anything then there is no reason to believe god could not return in a different non-human form. Think about this when you are eating your next chicken, steak or fish!
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Before that, first the Sun must be darkened, and the moon shall not give light. The stars must fall.Most Christians are waiting for Jesus to return, although they do not all agree on when or how He will return, but if a man came claiming to be Jesus how would you know it was really Jesus? After all, there are no photos of what Jesus looked like when He walked the earth 2000 years ago.
Anyone can claim that he is the return of Jesus and that is no doubt why Jesus gave this warning to His disciples:
Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Jesus was right, because many men have come claiming to be Jesus
List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia
So how would you know if a man who claimed to be Jesus was really Jesus? What would he have to do to prove to you that He was Jesus?
(This is mostly for Christians, but anyone can answer it.
Once we see these signs, we know it is near.
Then, we shall see the sign of the Son of Man in the sky.
After this, Jesus will come down on the clouds with some angels around him.
Everyone shall see.
It is not possible to miss.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that Jesus would return in a non-human form because what would be the point? Only a human could do what Christ was slated by God to so when he returns. Only a human could have a mission and reveal more scriptures and set the stage for the kingdom of God to be built on earth.
That said, I do not believe that the same man Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago was ever slated to return to earth because Jesus said his work was finished here and that he was no more in the world
(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30).
Also, it is important to note that Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament, and that means that the return of Christ referred to in the New Testament had to be another man. Baha'is believe that man was Baha'ullah. As the Bible says he would come with a new name, so we know he would not be called Jesus.
Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
The new name also indicates that the return of Christ would be another man because why would Jesus change his name if he wanted people to know he was Jesus? That would make no sense at all.
InChrist
Free4ever
Because He said this in the next verse...
But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. Luke 17:25
...and it was Jesus, the Son of man, who suffered on the cross and was rejected by the religious leaders of Israel.
I think it’s better just to simply read the Bible , seek God and let it speak for itself, rather than trust a group to feed you elaborate interpretations which deviate from the plain, straightforward message.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
All these signs came to pass and the Spirit was poured out upon all flesh, yet the return of Christ was missed by most people because they were looking up into the clouds for Jesus to come down with trumpets and angels.
Great Disappointment - Wikipedia
By his message of love and forgiveness and by the miracles he performs. Both are needed for identifying the Christ.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
That verse won’t work to say that Jesus will be the return of Christ because Jesus was rejected 2000 years ago; Jesus was not rejected by “this generation” to which Luke 17:24 refers.
Please note the sequence of events:
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
So what that means is that the Son of man would suffer many things, and be rejected of the generation in which he was living contemporaneous with his appearance (this generation).
Baha’u’llah perfectly fulfilled these prophecies because he suffered many things and was rejected by the generation in which He was living (his generation).
“Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.
The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.
I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.
Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.
Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.”
The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.
I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.
Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.
Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.”
Interestingly, what happened to Baha’u’llah also fulfilled all the prophecies in Isaiah 53. Some if the Isaiah 53 prophecies could apply to Jesus but some of them cannot possibly apply to Jesus and that is how we know that Jesus cannot be the end times Messiah prophesied in Isaiah. Jesus was a Messiah, but not the end times Messiah.
I hope you don’t think that anyone taught me what I know. The Baha’i Faith organization does not bother itself with such things as the return of Christ because they are much too busy building the kingdom of God on earth. What I have learned I learned through a careful study and analysis of the Bible. Comparing the Bible prophecies from both the Old and New Testaments with the history of the Baha’i Faith it became abundantly clear that all the prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled. Of course I already knew who Baha’u’llah was because of all the other evidence so I just do this as a hobby and because I need to know what is in the Bible if I am conversing with Christians on forums.
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rational experiences
Veteran Member
I can think for myself about human life.
Human memory says the first original human life was a good human was not suffering.
We quote human memory only the good do not suffer.
Then there is the Jesus Christ statement.
A really good human life suffering to save others.
I love humanity my family.
I see good people life suffering.
Jesus sure did return seeing Christ was the highest natural heavenly spirit.
Why I don't believe it is good to see humans suffering preaching that suffering saved us. When the state to suffer was saved and still being lived.
Just as a human who thinks without coercive preaching.
Human memory says the first original human life was a good human was not suffering.
We quote human memory only the good do not suffer.
Then there is the Jesus Christ statement.
A really good human life suffering to save others.
I love humanity my family.
I see good people life suffering.
Jesus sure did return seeing Christ was the highest natural heavenly spirit.
Why I don't believe it is good to see humans suffering preaching that suffering saved us. When the state to suffer was saved and still being lived.
Just as a human who thinks without coercive preaching.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree that He would show forth love and forgiveness but why do you believe that Jesus would perform miracles when He returns? Do you know why Jesus performed miracles when He walked the earth 2000 years ago? It was to convince people of who He was, that He was of God.
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
But if it was clearly apparent by his love and forgiveness why would Jesus need to perform miracles? Is there anything in the New Testament that says that Jesus would perform miracles when He returns? Jesus said that many false prophets will come and shew great signs and wonders, so if a man came and performed miracles that would be a reason to believe he was not Jesus.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.