If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[Ken Brown]

John 17:1-6--While praying to his Father, Jesus calls the Father-THE ONLY TRUE GOD- ( one who sent Jesus-John 5:30) verse 6 = YHWH(Jehovah)
Paul taught the same at 1 Corinthians 8:6)-- One God to all-the Father.
Jesus taught he has a God-his Father-YHWH(Jehovah)John 20:17, rev 3:12

Hi kjw47, I have no problem with Yeshua being part of the Father, do you? Yeshua is ONE with the Father, and when you have seen Him, it is like seeing the Father because He did what He saw the Father doing. As I told Shermana, you can compare Yeshua to the Father as we can compare the light of the sun to the sun. The sun sends forth it's light and when you see the light, it is like seeing the sun, and you really cannot look at the face of the sun, just like we cannot look at the face of Elohim. The Apostle Paul stated that we can learn about the invisible qualities of Elohim by looking at what He created, and the sun, moon, and stars are of those created things that tell us about Elohim. So just as the physical sun is greater that it's light, so also the Father (the whole sphere or unity of what Elohim is) is greater than Yeshua. KB

 

[Prophet]

So one verse out of context trumps hundreds of other verses. Try 1 John 2 while you're at it. Have you even read all of 1 John 2? If so, you'd recognize that 1 John 4 does not stand alone in what you're trying to say. Thank you for demonstrating your concern for consistency.

And thank you, sir. However, you don't get to just announce that I am taking verses out of context in an actual debate. I know that announcing victory seems like a valid tactic to you but that's only because irrational people taught you your beliefs and debate tactics. I am clearly arguing that you preach a corrupted message about Jesus and that Jesus himself spent his entire ministry teaching against this corruption. I am arguing that you derive this corrupted message from a corrupted understanding in the case of enlightened Truth, and through thoughtless devotion to scripture that is already corrupted.

I'm arguing that you really don't even know what Scripture is and you have thus, no real position teaching it. I'm arguing that Scripture is Truth, itself, and when correctly understood it will stand up to and be proven by unlimited inquiry as Truth can be proven from unlimited perspectives. You think a passage is Scripture because it is in a old book you worship, and then you go the further error of thinking old book you worship must necessarily be Truth, in spite of continual defeat by rational inquiry, and it is thus, your duty to deny rationality.

29 What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you build tombs for the prophets your ancestors killed, and you decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors destroyed. 30 Then you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would never have joined them in killing the prophets.’

31 “But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started. 33 Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?

34 “Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers of religious law. But you will kill some by crucifixion, and you will flog others with whips in your synagogues, chasing them from city to city. 35 As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, this judgment will fall on this very generation.

If you would, please enlighten me as to the meaning you derive from this passage which I would call central to our conflict and then we can compare the strength of our interpretations.

 

[Shermana]

Well isn't that cute. I'm arguing that your argument is no argument at all. It's cute that you say "Irrational" people taught me my debate tactics. The projection from you is always good for a laugh.

You are indeed right however that Jesus was arguing against corruption. However you lack the understanding of what corruption specifically Jesus was talking about.

What Jesus is referring to is the Pharisees and their hypocrisy and the Jews' constant rebellion against the prophets. Maybe if you actually tried the gospels and the Old Testament which it is based on, you would know this.

He was referring to the fact that the Israelites were constantly wavering from what the Torah instructed to do, and was calling out the Pharisees for inventing their own doctrines that deviated from what Moses actually taught.

Now to tell you the truth, I agree that much of the NT is interpolated, as well as some of the OT. The difference is that I actually have solid scholarly reasons, such as from manuscript issues and scholarly support, whereas you just pick and choose what particular parts you want to believe.

Why do you think Jesus would have been even considered to be the Messiah at the time with all those other messiahs running around? He even called himself a prophet, and if I recall your definition of what a prophet was, it was vastly different than what you claim.

 

[Prophet]

29 What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you build tombs for the prophets your ancestors killed, and you decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors destroyed. 30 Then you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would never have joined them in killing the prophets.’

Yours is a miserable lot, blind teachers of the law. You pretend as if you honor past prophets...

31 “But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started. 33 Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?

...but in actuality, you are the ideological progeny of those who murdered prophets before you and given the opportunity you would prove you are EXACTLY THE SAME.

 

[Shermana]

Yours is a miserable lot, blind teachers of the law. You pretend as if you honor past prophets...

...but in actuality, you are the ideological progeny of those who murdered prophets before you and given the opportunity you would prove you are EXACTLY THE SAME.

That's right. He was telling them that they were hypocrites who only pretended to honor the past prophets when in reality they imitated those who persecuted those who were truly conveying what God specifically told them to say so that His Law would be followed without blemish. What's the problem?

 

[Prophet]

That's right. He was telling them that they were hypocrites who only pretended to honor the past prophets when in reality they imitated those who persecuted those who were truly conveying what God specifically told them to say so that His Law would be followed without blemish. What's the problem?

Oh, that's right? Now go the further step of figuring out why you hate me so much and maybe you'll have a break through.

 

[Shermana]

What does my personal opinion of you and your "prophethood" have anything to do with your statements which go clearly against what it says even the same Jesus of whom you are quoting taught? Jesus was very clear that God is very much concerned about our personal actions and our sins, in fact that was the central basis of his message, about adjusting our behavior and making sure we obey His law exactly as he wanted and not as the Pharisees had misinterpreted or were being hypocritical about.

 

[Prophet]

What does my personal opinion of you and your "prophethood" have anything to do with your statements which go clearly against what it says even the same Jesus of whom you are quoting taught? Jesus was very clear that God is very much concerned about our personal actions and our sins, in fact that was the central basis of his message, about adjusting our behavior and making sure we obey His law exactly as he wanted and not as the Pharisees had misinterpreted or were being hypocritical about.

Oh, clearly. I will retort.

The law was made for man but you think that man was made for the law. The law only exists because man has a mental sickness that makes him unable to see how others are a part of him, enslaving him in selfishness and torturing him with psychological suffering in the form of anxiety. Society cultivates hypocrisy in this way, by raising beings who believe that merely acting as if one is selfless for selfish reasons (under penalty of punishment) is "good" and a worthy standard of love.

You are unable to have Christ-like compassion on these beings who suffer from derangements which would cause them to commit acts of evil, because you suffer from enslavement to selfishness as well. When they do sinful things that you yourself might enjoy (like sexual immorality), you take your reward in full in your superiority over them. And when they do sinful things you wouldn't enjoy ( like rape and murder, hopefully), it is here you derive your most cheaply earned superiority as you "tie heavy loads to their backs and don't lift a finger to help them." You take credit for the luck of your birth, and look down at those whose lives have been scarred by pain you've never experienced. All the while, you are neck deep in the greatest sin of all: Pride, the father of all sin.

 

[Shermana]

The law was made for man but you think that man was made for the law.

The Law was made for man so that they could serve God as He wants them to behave.

The law only exists because man has a mental sickness that makes him unable to see how others are a part of him, enslaving him in selfishness and torturing him with psychological suffering in the form of anxiety.

In addition to pointing out certain behaviors and rituals and sacrifices and procedures that God wants His people to do. But yes, mankind is afflicted with a disease of selfishness such as that you accuse me of. It is not "original sin", it is "Built-in tendency to Sin that we are tested to see if we overcome".

Society cultivates hypocrisy in this way, by raising beings who believe that merely acting as if one is selfless for selfish reasons (under penalty of punishment) is "good" and a worthy standard of love.

I see it a bit differently, but yes society does cultivate such a hypocrisy into making people think they are good for merely not getting into trouble.

You are unable to have Christ-like compassion on these beings who suffer from derangements which would cause them to commit acts of evil, because you suffer from enslavement to selfishness as well.

Oh I am certainly still very selfish, and I have my own ego that I have to tame. But that in no way prohibits me from condemning those who commit blatant acts of evil. "Judge not lest ye be judged" is not the same as "Do not judge at all".

When they do sinful things that you yourself might enjoy (like sexual immorality), you take your reward in full in your superiority over them.

I guess you could say that I feel superior to those who engage in debauchery, in the sense that I feel more pure and undefiled, but I think that's how we're designed. I think it's built in, not necessarily "Socially developed".

And when they do sinful things you wouldn't enjoy ( like rape and murder, hopefully), it is here you derive your most cheaply earned superiority as you "tie heavy loads to their backs and don't lift a finger to help them."

What am I supposed to do to help them exactly? I don't think you quite understand what Jesus meant by that passage. What heavy loads am I tying onto them?

You take credit for the luck of your birth

,

I believe being reborn as an Israelite is a great reward, which most of us take for granted or flat out don't recognize and will be losing out on our next birth, it's not something to sit on our laurels about, if anything it is a great load on our backs if we wish to make use of our blessing.

and look down at those whose lives have been scarred by pain you've never experienced.

In my view, as is the view of billions of Hindus and others of Eastern beliefs their pain is the result of their past and present life sins.

All the while, you are neck deep in the greatest sin of all: Pride, the father of all sin

I definitely have my ego issues, but I think you're digging here. Pride is far from the greatest sin. It is the ROOT of sin, but not the greatest. If you are saying my sin is worse than rape and murder and false witness in criminal court, we'll have to politely agree to disagree. Such language suggests to me you are simply masking jealousy that I was blessed with Israelite birth.

Meanwhile, claiming to be a prophet falsely is a death-penalty level sin in my book, literally.

Here's something prideful for you: If you were a prophet, you'd know who you were talking to here and what I have experienced, and you'd talk to me accordingly.

 

[Prophet]

The Law was made for man so that they could serve God as He wants them to behave.

This is debate. Do you have any Scriptural or rational basis for this proclamation?

Is it not plain to see that if all beings see each other as brothers and sisters in God that the law has been both fulfilled and rendered useless? If beings are good to each other already, law serves no purpose. Selfish man while exploring the world has documented and destroyed many selfless societies where laws were eschewed in favor of entrusting the good of the tribe to their wisest elders or, as they'd be known in other parts of the world, prophets.

In addition to pointing out certain behaviors and rituals and sacrifices and procedures that God wants His people to do. But yes, mankind is afflicted with a disease of selfishness such as that you accuse me of. It is not "original sin", it is "Built-in tendency to Sin that we are tested to see if we overcome".

So an all good creator inflicted evil upon us to separate the cream of the crop? And when all wise creator did this, did he think to inflict everyone equally before judging everyone according to the standards you use (because you obviously got God right)?

How is your version of God a standard for good? Is Jesus teaching a message which agrees with you here?

Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Oh I am certainly still very selfish, and I have my own ego that I have to tame. But that in no way prohibits me from condemning those who commit blatant acts of evil. "Judge not lest ye be judged" is not the same as "Do not judge at all".

Did Jesus spend his ministry railing against the murderers, the rapists, or the proud? Any honest examination of Jesus Christ's message clearly highlights his distaste for the proud and how they exalt themselves at the cost of rapists, murderers, and whoever else they can feel superior to. All the while, inside their motives for acting good are selfish, filthy, and unclean.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,[a] and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.[c] 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

You accuse me time and time again of only having a few verses for which I use flawed interpretations, but I actually have plenty more to go on than you. You basically ignore what Jesus actually teaches. If you met the actual Jesus through his teaching and without the miracles way back when, you would've called loudly for his crucifixion.

Meanwhile, claiming to be a prophet falsely is a death-penalty level sin in my book, literally..

Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started!

 

[Prophet]

The Christians are right: it is Pride which has been the chief cause of misery in every nation and every family since the world began. Other vices may sometimes bring people together: you may find good fellowship and jokes and friendliness among drunken people or unchaste people. But pride always means enmity—it is enmity. And not only enmity between man and man, but enmity to God.

...

How is it that people who are quite obviously eaten up with Pride can say they believe in God and appear to themselves very religious? I am afraid it means they are worshiping an imaginary God. They theoretically admit themselves to be nothing in the presence of this phantom God, but are really all the time imagining how He approves of them and thinks them far better than ordinary people: that is, they pay a pennyworth of imaginary humility to Him and get out of it a pound's worth of Pride towards their fellow-men. I suppose it was of those people Christ was thinking when He said that some would preach about Him and cast out devils in His name, only to be told at the end of the world that He had never known them. And any of us may at any moment be in this death-trap. Luckily, we have a test. Whenever we find that our religious life is making us feel that we are good—above all, that we are better than someone else—I think we may be sure that we are being acted on, not by God, but by the devil.

From Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, Chapter 8 "The Great Sin"

 

[Shermana]

This is debate. Do you have any Scriptural or rational basis for this proclamation?

Ummm, does the whole thing about "So you can be a holy people unto me" count?

Is it not plain to see that if all beings see each other as brothers and sisters in God that the law has been both fulfilled and rendered useless?

No it's not plain at all, the House of Israel is a separate people. To be brothers and sisters with everyone would mean they all convert to the Law. Not the other way around. And plus, there are still certain peoples like the Ammonites who are permanently prohibited, a cursed lineage.

If beings are good to each other already, law serves no purpose. Selfish man while exploring the world has documented and destroyed many selfless societies where laws were eschewed in favor of entrusting the good of the tribe to their wisest elders or, as they'd be known in other parts of the world, prophets.

No, the wisest elders were not prophets necessarily. Shamans for example were not called prophets necessarily. More like "mediums" who spoke to spirits. Very rarely were there actually the equivalent of "prophets" in the other cultures, and they were often outcasts apparently.

So an all good creator inflicted evil upon us to separate the cream of the crop?

That's correct.

And when all wise creator did this, did he think to inflict everyone equally before judging everyone according to the standards you use (because you obviously got God right)?

All people are judged and inflicted fairly, I do not know about "Equally" because each case is different, but they are "Equal" in that they are punished to the degree they sin based on their level of birth.

How is your version of God a standard for good?

100%. You just don't necessarily agree with what's "Good". You may think that "good" is all about sugar cane and rainbows and Kumbaya. Mine is more about destruction of evil and impurity and fair implementation of Cosmic Justice.

Is Jesus teaching a message which agrees with you here?

Yes, this is the same Jesus who called the Canaanite woman a dog.

Did Jesus spend his ministry railing against the murderers, the rapists, or the proud?

All three. He railed against people who were even (unduly) angry and lustful, and said they were guilty of murder and adultery, how much more so would he be against those who actually commit those crimes by that standard? And when he spoke against the Proud, it was more about their hypocrisy. Context is very important when you want to make sweeping generalities.

I get the suspicion you don't have enough familiarity with the Gospels to have a serious discussion on them, which is so often the case with so many who want to redefine Jesus from his Jewishness unfortunately.

Any honest examination of Jesus Christ's message clearly highlights his distaste for the proud and how they exalt themselves at the cost of rapists, murderers, and whoever else they can feel superior to

.

I'd love to see what passages you specifically derive this from to get that specific idea. Jesus did accuse them of being hypocritical but he was more aiming at their non-compliance with several aspects of the Law like helping the poor, and their artificial inventions and contrivings that weren't scriptural.

Also you should take an honest examination of what Jesus considered to actually constitute prophethood. For your own sake. There's still time to repent you know!

All the while, inside their motives for acting good are selfish, filthy, and unclean.

You got that right at least, but that's much different than what you previously said.

You accuse me time and time again of only having a few verses for which I use flawed interpretations,

That is correct.

but I actually have plenty more to go on than you.

That is incorrect.

I use the whole Gospels, except for the parts I consider interpolated. You use a few parts.

You basically ignore what Jesus actually teaches.

No that would be you.

If you met the actual Jesus through his teaching and without the miracles way back when, you would've called loudly for his crucifixion.

Why would I? I agree with almost everything he says nonetheless.

Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started!

What do you mean by that specifically?

If you want, we could settle it the way Elijah did with the false prophets, as I often offer to people who claim to have the Spirit or otherwise refuse to debate reasonably and address my claims and simply brush aside my points and insist I'm wrong and that they're right without properly supporting it.

 

[Prophet]

I think this makes you the winner. Congratulations.

 

[Muffled]

Fact--The Father was in heaven while Jesus was on earth--its impossible for Jesus to be Jehovah.
They are one in purpose , Jesus also taught-- the Father is greater than I.

Only Jehovah was being spoken about in Exodus 3

The Pharisees asked Jesus if he lived before Abraham, Jesus answered that question--he was not saying he was the I am--that is twisting what Jesus said.

I believe you are in error God is everywhere. The repesentation of God as the Father is that which is outside Jesus and the representation of God as Jesus is that which is inside Jesus but God is not divided; He is one.

That is a constituent of oneness not a definition of it.

I don't believe it is twisting but correct interpretation based on the context, something I believe rarely happens with JWs.

v 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

 

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled, this is not an easy subject, and many centuries of debate and even the slaughter of opposing factions have engulfed this issue.

Yeshua prayed that His Disciples were "one" with Him AS He is "one" with the Father (John 17:11, 21-22), so using your logic, does that mean His Disciples were also Jehovah?

Yeshua was Yahweh/Jehovah, but He emptied Himself and took on the form of man (Phil 2), so logic tells us that Yeshua was BEFORE Abraham as YHWH, but Yeshua was NOT the Father, and the Father was not Yahweh/Yeshua.

Exo 3:14 describes Yahweh (I AM THAT I AM), and verse 15 tells us the NAME is Yahweh/Jehovah, as the name Yahweh comes from that Hebrew word (H1961) "I AM THAT I AM." Logic tell us that it is not TWO separate names, but ONE.

No, the Father is greater than Yahweh/Yeshua. Take the example of our physical sun. The sun sends it's light to this world to give the world life through that light (photosynthesis), and the light of the sun is ONE with the sun, and when you see the light of the sun, it is like seeing the sun, but the sun is greater than the light, just as the Father is greater than Yeshua/Yahweh. Does this make any sense to you? KB

I believe there was never a suggestion by Jesus that His disciples should kill unbelieving Pharisees, so I believe such things are generated by the Devil.

I believe so.

I believe the temple is the house of Jehovah based on when Solomon was building it and Jesus calls it His Father's house: Lu 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? knew ye not that I must be in my Father’s house?

I have seen the text in Hebrew. I believe it correctly shows two names JHVH and AHYH.

It makes no sense to me because I don't believe it to be that way.

 

[Muffled]

I am-- is not a name-- YHWH(Jehovah) is Gods personal name.
The Pharisees didn't believe Jesus was the messiah--they were wrong--they were wrong on many things they did concerning Jesus.

I beleive the Book of Exodus says that it is a name that Jehovah called Himself.

 

[Prophet]

Meanwhile, claiming to be a prophet falsely is a death-penalty level sin in my book, literally..

Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started!

What do you mean by that specifically?

I mean it as Jesus meant it. You ignorantly testify against yourself. You would have fallen into every verbal trap Jesus set for your hypocrisy.

But in saying that, you testify against yourselves that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

How many prophets were murdered in the OT or the Tanakh?

 

[Shermana]

mean it as Jesus meant it. You ignorantly testify against yourself. You would have fallen into every verbal trap Jesus set for your hypocrisy.

Care to explain that in more detail? What hypocrisy have I exhibited exactly? Are you capable of actually addressing anyone's argument instead of just making blind swats and attempts at personal comments?

I think this makes you the winner. Congratulations.

At least you got something right.

 

[Prophet]

Sure. I guess I should quote myself here:

Yours is a miserable lot, blind teachers of the law. You pretend as if you honor past prophets...

...but in actuality, you are the ideological progeny of those who murdered prophets before you and given the opportunity you would prove you are EXACTLY THE SAME.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

At least the Pharisees appeared as good to other people. The only person here you I think you're capable fooling is yourself. In case you wonder at my interpretation of this Scripture, I will allow an unexpected source of Truth take over for me. When faced with sideways stares After making an awful scene at a fairly expensive restaurant amongst Miami's society elite, career criminal Tony "Scarface" Montana replied with a fairly scathing social commentary on hypocrisy.

What you lookin' at? You all a bunch of ******' ********. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be. You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your ******' fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth. Even when I lie. So say good night to the bad guy! Come on. The last time you gonna see a bad guy like this again, let me tell you. Come on. Make way for the bad guy. There's a bad guy comin' through! Better get outta his way!

I will give my interpretation of this passage in clearer terms.

You have no place looking down on me. I do all the sin you want to do deep down. The reason keeping you from acts of evil isn't any real goodness or love for your fellow man, but actually nothing but fear. Good? You're not good. You are just a hypocrite, acting as a good person would act, but inside your motives are nothing but selfishness (like whitewashed tombs which appear on the outside as clean but inside, are filled with all things unclean). Even in cases where I may tell a lie, at least I have always been honest about the man I am. You? Your entire existence is a lie. Evil people like you who cower and hide need evil people like me so you can blend in. Then you can go and point at someone else and say, "That's what evil looks like!" when you are evil yourself.