If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[Shermana]

So basically your response is to attack me personally and whine. Nice. Definitely worthy of my respect. May you be blessed with great humility.

And again, you should really consider reading the whole context of what Jesus is complaining to the Pharisees about before you try comparing me to them, that would make you look like you at least know a bit of what you're talking about. Just sayin'. And when someone asks you for an example of the hypocrisy you accuse them of, you may want to actually answer instead of dancing around it.

 

[Prophet]

I have continually gone where the debate takes me. You asked me yourself how you have demonstrated hypocrisy. I accepted your challenge and demonstrated how you aren't good at all, in spite of how superior you believe you are to the filthy sinner. I have fully disclosed exactly what I think for you to examine rationally.

You complain that my argument amounts to nothing but personal attacks and whining, all the while giving no rational justification for your disagreement with me, choosing instead to use diversionary tactics like feigned certainty and hypocrite's accusations.

In this way, you are blind to your hypocrisy. See how you whine about me whining? You are the whiner here. Same as with murderers and rapists. You're the murderer here.

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

 

[Shermana]

So I ask you more than once to tell me where I've demonstrated hypocrisy, and then you simply say I am blind to my hypocrisy. Yes that most definitely put me in my place. You sure got me there. It sounds like you are angry with me here. But by the way, that verse is about your BROTHER. You are certainly not my brother. And I am not your brother.

in spite of how superior you believe you are to the filthy sinner

I am quite fine with "feeling superior" to sinners and people who transgress the laws, that's exactly how we are programmed to be for a reason. Do you feel that a saint is no better than a filthy murderer-rapist?

instead to use diversionary tactics like feigned certainty and hypocrite's accusations

Wow, DEFINITELY projection, your diversionary tactics of avoiding what I said, or actually responding to it is very clear.

all the while giving no rational justification for your disagreement with me,

I did, you brushed it off, I said that 1 John 2 and the rest of the chapters clearly show that you're taking a single verse out of context and that the rest of the epistle clearly demonstrates a concern for good behavior and refraining from sin, did you need me to go over it line by line with you or what?

I'm not quite sure if you're posting here to engage in debate and try to earn esteem and credibility, or just finding a platform to vent your ego, actually I think I know.

 

[Shermana]

I accepted your challenge

Now, remind me, what challenge did you accept exactly? The one where I said let's settle this Elijah-style? Because that's the only challenge I remember making. And if you want to accept that Challenge, repeat after me: "May the Pretender be put to silence and shame, Amen".

and demonstrated how you aren't good at all,

I don't recall you doing this except through your own fallacious subjective interpretation of religious ideas that aren't necessarily rooted in the text based on out-of-context readings of what Jesus said to the Pharisees that aren't remotely comparable. At best, it sounds like you're trying to say I'm prideful for thinking I'm better than people who sin. Well, that's my religious belief and interpretation, that my "righteousness" exceeds those who break the Law, I'm sorry if this hits a nerve with you for whatever reason.

It really sounds like you're just crying out for help, Prophet. There is an answer to the pain, you just need to look for it. There's more to life than wanting to bring down others because of the shame you feel. But if you don't want people challenging and mocking your particular beliefs, this is the wrong place for you. Over here, you actually have to deal with other points of view in a way that addresses substantiated positions and be willing to accept that your own views may not be entirely substantiated themselves. Context is key.

 

[Prophet]

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Please do edify all of us as to the meaning of this Scriptural passage in light of your doctrine that we should be judgmental of murderers and other sinners.

 

[Shermana]

Please do edify all of us as to the meaning of this Scriptural passage in light of your doctrine that we should be judgmental of murderers and other sinners.

First off, it is for "Brothers and sisters". Despite what some misinterpret about the story of the Good Samaritan, we are NOT each other's brothers and sisters. A brother and sister is someone, according to that story, who cares enough about someone else to go out of their way to try to help them from death and suffering. Condoning murderers and rapists is not a way of helping people escape suffering and death. I would be highly suspicious of people who do NOT condemn murderers and rapists.

Also, you must reconcile that with the fact that Jesus ANGRILY drove the Moneychangers with a whip made of cords out of the Temple.

In the epistles, the true brothers aren't even supposed to bid good day to people who disagree with them. How does that work with "Brothers and Sisters"?

People themselves and doctrines are regarded as despicable and to be avoided for teaching sexual immorality and eating meat offered to idols in Revelation.

Cherry picking and ignoring other passages does not help one understand the totality of the message.

 

[look3467]

The key to understand here is two words: "as God".
Only God could redeem His own creation because mankind was made short of perfection or in other words, a lesser god.

So, unless God Himself, becomes as a man, mankind does not stand a chance for survival after this fleshly life is over.

Therefore, Jesus "as God" in the flesh, with all the authority of God, "as God" takes the hit for us. In our place.

So, Jesus in complying with all the requirements of an earthly man, as a son of man, also fulfills all the requirements as the "Son of God".

Whether we believe it or not does not change the fact that salvation has come tous all regardless.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Shermana]

The key to understand here is two words: "as God".
Only God could redeem His own creation because mankind was made short of perfection or in other words, a lesser god.

So, unless God Himself, becomes as a man, mankind does not stand a chance for survival after this fleshly life is over.

Therefore, Jesus "as God" in the flesh, with all the authority of God, "as God" takes the hit for us. In our place.

So, Jesus in complying with all the requirements of an earthly man, as a son of man, also fulfills all the requirements as the "Son of God".

Whether we believe it or not does not change the fact that salvation has come tous all regardless.

Blessings, AJ

What verse are you referring to which you think it says "As God"?

 

[Prophet]

So I ask you more than once to tell me where I've demonstrated hypocrisy, and then you simply say I am blind to my hypocrisy.

No, I said much more. I said that you have no place looking down on anyone because all your goodness is not genuine. These people you callously judge do all the sin you want to do deep down. The reason keeping you from acts of from being just like them isn't any real goodness or love for your fellow man, but actually nothing but fear.

Good? You're not good. You are just a hypocrite, acting as a good person would act, but inside your motives are nothing but selfishness.

Of hypocrites Jesus said the following: Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others..

You even feel superior to to people who tell lies, when your entire existence is a lie. Evil people like you who cower and hide need evil people like Tony Montana so that you can blend in. Then you can go and point at someone else and say, "That's what evil looks like!" when you are evil yourself.

I said demonstrably more than you are just blind to your own hypocrisy.

 

[Shermana]

What goodness are you even speaking of that is not genuine in the first place? All abstinence from sin is "goodness". You know, I even agreed with you that most people are only good because they want to stay out of trouble. I don't think you're registering what I'm saying, but something I said seems to most definitely have struck a nerve. I don't even see what's Theologically wrong with the idea of refraining from sin out of fear. Who knows, maybe I would be totally out partying and shagging every pretty lady in sight and ripping people off and wheeling and dealing if I didn't believe what I do, maybe I wouldn't, who knows. Either way, the fact is, I feel that I have a natural built in Mechanism that gives me a sense of inner pride in not engaging such things. All people do. I also believe there's a natural built in shame mechanism for people who DO sin, as well as a sort of resentment and need to bring down others who don't engage in what they do.

So what selfish motives do you think I have in mind? Specifically. You sure seem to have a problem demonstrating anything other than making vague references to what Jesus said, not at all in context to the point he was actually making regarding the Pharisees' actions themselves. You seem to have something you really want to vent on people who actually do believe in an objective sense of morality and that God wants them to behave. I can definitely see that you have a major problem with the idea that God cares about what you do.

when your entire existence is a lie.

Oh it is? By all means, explain what about my existence you think is a lie specifically. Do you think I'm a brain in a vat?

It is you who is living a lie, "Prophet", and I'd be willing to bet you even acknowledge this, since you seem to have already acknowledged that you lie, so stop this facade of projection, if you don't like the fact that I'm calling you out for not properly extrapolating the context of a passage, don't make it a personal issue.

 

[Prophet]

What goodness are you even speaking of that is not genuine in the first place? All abstinence from sin is "goodness". You know, I even agreed with you that most people are only good because they want to stay out of trouble. I don't think you're registering what I'm saying, but something I said seems to most definitely have struck a nerve. I don't even see what's Theologically wrong with the idea of refraining from sin out of fear. Who knows, maybe I would be totally out partying and shagging every pretty lady in sight and ripping people off and wheeling and dealing if I didn't believe what I do, maybe I wouldn't, who knows. Either way, the fact is, I feel that I have a natural built in Mechanism that gives me a sense of inner pride in not engaging such things. All people do. I also believe there's a natural built in shame mechanism for people who DO sin, as well as a sort of resentment and need to bring down others who don't engage in what they do.

We have a fundamental difference in our definitions of sin. You believe sin is congruent with actions that are harmful to other beings and/or offensive to God. I believe sin isn't an action and doesn't exist in the physical realm at all. I believe sin is congruent to the motives behind the action and what separates good from evil is whether the action in question was motivated by selflessness or selfishness. Things that are done out of selflessness are always motivated by love. Things that are done out of selfishness are always motivated by FEAR. You, then, believe good can be motivated by selfishness, and it is reflected in the frightful fashion in which you treat others.

I'll tell you the Truth: Whatever you don't do for the least of your brothers, even if they are rapists and murderers, you didn't do for God. You think you worship God but you have never known God or perfect love. When He was hungry you gave Him nothing to eat. He was thirsty and you gave Him nothing to drink. He was homeless and you would not shelter Him. He was in prison for murder and you were too superior to visit Him.

So what selfish motives do you think I have in mind? Specifically. You sure seem to have a problem demonstrating anything other than making vague references to what Jesus said, not at all in context to the point he was actually making regarding the Pharisees' actions themselves. You seem to have something you really want to vent on people who actually do believe in an objective sense of morality and that God wants them to behave. I can definitely see that you have a major problem with the idea that God cares about what you do.

You exalt yourself in your mind at the expense of others. You wish to be first in the Kingdom of God and you push towards the front of the line, never once understanding what Jesus meant when he said "the last shall be first and the first shall be last". You go through this existence joylessly, never once realizing that the Kingdom can be had in this very lifetime by letting go of all selfish desire. You live in fear of hell never once realizing that you're experiencing hell right now, enslaved to selfish desires you believe somehow are "higher" than those of others.

Oh it is? By all means, explain what about my existence you think is a lie specifically. Do you think I'm a brain in a vat?

Your outer appearance as a good person is a lie. The constant voice in your head telling you that you're better than other people is a lie.

It is you who is living a lie, "Prophet", and I'd be willing to bet you even acknowledge this, since you seem to have already acknowledged that you lie, so stop this facade of projection, if you don't like the fact that I'm calling you out for not properly extrapolating the context of a passage, don't make it a personal issue.

I was quoting Tony Montana from the movie Scarface....LOL

 

[Shermana]

We have a fundamental difference in our definitions of sin. You believe sin is congruent with actions that are harmful to other beings and/or offensive to God.

Yes my definition is congruent with the particular scripture that we are debating in the scriptural debates section, including the books that contain the out-of-context words you are using in your attempts to make personal swipes at me. I also believe it has much to do with intent, as Jesus says as well.

I believe sin isn't an action and doesn't exist in the physical realm at all. I believe sin is congruent to the motives behind the action and what separates good from evil is whether the action in question was motivated by selflessness or selfishness.

You accused me earlier of being selfish. I have yet to see where you have demonstrated this, even if I admit I can be selfish. However, the definition of sin is to break the Mosaic Law. It CAN include intent. But if you crossdress or break Sabbath (for a non-emergency related reason), or you marry your sister, or you eat pork, you're sinning, no matter if you think it's done with love or not. Biblically speaking.

Things that are done out of selflessness are always motivated by love.

Okay, no question there...with most things. I don't see the contention. I think you're confusing the very basis behind what I'm talking about with a general concept of "love" and "selflessness". I'm just talking about absence of sin and the concept of a natural built in guilt and shame.

I can also say that many things done out of selflessness are actually done out of fear. I can turn practically any declaration of an act of "selflessness" into being actually motivated by fear.

What it seems you're getting into is the age-old controversy of whether piety is motivated more by love of God or fear of Him.

Things that are done out of selfishness are always motivated by FEAR.

I guess a rapist is motivated by fear of not being able to seduce a woman on his own?

You, then, believe good can be motivated by selfishness, and it is reflected in the frightful fashion in which you treat others.

I believe "good" is merely the absence of Sin in this case. Love of God itself is a commandment. The breaking of that commandment is punishable. It is a test to see if we'll still love God even in the face of pains and struggles. Does that mean loving God is always done out of fear? In your logic, most definitely. Thus it is essentially impossible to have any definition of good.

I'll tell you the Truth: Whatever you don't do for the least of your brothers, even if they are rapists and murderers, you didn't do for God.

Again, you have a different definition of "brothers" and you seem to have completely ignored what I said about how we're not even supposed to bid good day to people who have heretical views. Regardless of what those heretical views are in particular.

You think you worship God but you have never known God

I most certainly have, by my soul, as sure as He lives.

or perfect love.

And this is something you claim to know for yourself?

When He was hungry you gave Him nothing to eat. He was thirsty and you gave Him nothing to drink. He was homeless and you would not shelter Him. He was in prison for murder and you were too superior to visit Him.

If someone who believed as I do was hungry, I'd go out of my way to feed him if I knew he was in need. Unfortunately, I don't have a Radar telling me the precise location of starving Nazarenes.

You exalt yourself in your mind at the expense of others.

What expense exactly? That I believe I'm in a higher standing in Heaven than those who fornicate and break the law? Is that supposed to be a problem?

You wish to be first in the Kingdom of God and you push towards the front of the line, never once understanding what Jesus meant when he said "the last shall be first and the first shall be last".

I think it's you who has absolutely no idea what Jesus meant by that. Maybe if you actually read the passage, you'd know Jesus was talking about those who were born earlier than others who had less time to face tribulations with. How am I "pushing towards the front of the line" exactly? Like your woeful attempts to use scripture in personal condemnations, I think you are equally woeful in even trying to make personal condemnations to begin with.

You go through this existence joylessly, never once realizing that the Kingdom can be had in this very lifetime by letting go of all selfish desire.

Define Selfish Desire. Does wanting to be in the Kingdom count as selfish Desire? Does wanting to obey the Law as Jesus taught count as Selfish desire?

You live in fear of hell never once realizing that you're experiencing hell right now, enslaved to selfish desires you believe somehow are "higher" than those of others.

Again, I'm very suspicious of people who have a problem with thinking that a non-rapist is better than a rapist. In my mind, it sounds like you're clawing and viciously hoping to bring people to some level that you are at.

Your outer appearance as a good person is a lie.

I'm glad you know me so well to know about my outer appearance.

The constant voice in your head telling you that you're better than other people is a lie.

Okay, how nice of you to know what is and isn't a lie. Did your own voice in your head tell you this?

"Surely your righteousness must be greater than the scribes and pharisees if you wish to enter the Kingdom".

Jesus agrees with me. Not you. And it sounds like you have some serious vendetta against people who think better of themselves for not having committed sins. You are confused about the difference between feeling "prideful" and "feeling good about yourself". It seems to me as if you won't feel content unless you're dragging others to down to some level you feel you're at, as if you want the most vile of people to be seen at equal levels as those who dutifully obey their religious beliefs.

To put it simply, any sane person should have notice a red flag to someone who thinks rapists, thieves, and murderers aren't worse than those who haven't done so. People who ascribe to such beliefs should be monitored at all times.

 

[Prophet]

Yes my definition is congruent with the particular scripture that we are debating in the scriptural debates section, including the books that contain the out-of-context words you are using in your attempts to make personal swipes at me. I also believe it has much to do with intent, as Jesus says as well.

The word you are looking for here is not congruent, but consistent, agreed? And I do not contest that the passage in question in the OP is, indeed, consistent with what you believe about sin. However, you need to realize that I have been consistent as well in my criteria for discarding of what I deem to be false scripture, that being, that we should disregard anything of a magical or poorly reasoned nature. In rooting out false prophets, beliefs, or Scripture, we are commanded to use all of our rational capacity.

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. -Matthew 10:16

You accused me earlier of being selfish. I have yet to see where you have demonstrated this, even if I admit I can be selfish. However, the definition of sin is to break the Mosaic Law. It CAN include intent. But if you crossdress or break Sabbath (for a non-emergency related reason), or you marry your sister, or you eat pork, you're sinning, no matter if you think it's done with love or not. Biblically speaking.

Okay, no question there...with most things. I don't see the contention. I think you're confusing the very basis behind what I'm talking about with a general concept of "love" and "selflessness". I'm just talking about absence of sin and the concept of a natural built in guilt and shame.

You treated me like absolute garbage from the first moment you ever read any of my posts. You actually treat just about everyone here like that. Unless they agree with you. You just can't help but be a bully. I would explain how selfish your general attitude is further if I felt like anyone reading this other than you couldn't see it plainly as day.

But, here we run into our differences in understanding of sin again. I think we agree that sin is congruent with evil. When someone, anyone, Jew or not, does something evil, a psychological discomfort is felt in the form of guilt. I think we also agree on this. Now, I have to ask a question: What EXACTLY causes this guilt? I believe that this guilt is caused by an internal knowledge that the act they've performed is selfish and alters them from who they are meant to be. You seem to be saying that this guilt is caused by subconsciously referencing Mosaic Law and finding themselves wanting, even in cases where the one feeling guilt has never heard of Mosaic Law.

What about the period of time before the Mosaic Law was written? Was there no sin then? Where was Moses when Cain murdered Abel?

I can also say that many things done out of selflessness are actually done out of fear. I can turn practically any declaration of an act of "selflessness" into being actually motivated by fear.

Well, sir, you've successfully identified the magic bullet you will need to bring out to actually attempt debate. Put forth the selfless act that is motivated by fear if you have the scenario, and I will predictably prove this act to be hypocrisy.

What it seems you're getting into is the age-old controversy of whether piety is motivated more by love of God or fear of Him.

I'm not saying one motivates piety more than the other. I'm saying that love is the motive for true piety and the fear is the motive for false piety aka hypocrisy.

I guess a rapist is motivated by fear of not being able to seduce a woman on his own?

No, that's probably your own issue, but if that's the worst fear you know, of COURSE you'd never be a rapist. People who have lived the hardest lives and have murdered and raped and desensitized themselves to all else know that the only thing that is truly terrifying is being alone. Whatever hardships your life may have cast your way, you've never been alone, and you take credit for the luck of your birth. The only reason you aren't a literal murderer is that the hell you were born in wasn't as deep as the hell of the people you judge. As for way murder warps the mind of the one performing it, you do exactly the same. You are a murderer in your heart when you judge them angrily.

 

[look3467]

What verse are you referring to which you think it says "As God"?

Zec_12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Key words: “In that day” and “at that day” two things happened, 1. God defends the inhabitants of Jerusalem. How? By “he that is feeble among them” when Jesus makes the following statement “Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do”….

The second part of number one above is “shall be as David”…

“As David”….. qualifies the following verse: Luk_1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
and number 2. “the house of David shall be as God”.

1Ki_5:5 And, behold, I purpose to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God, as the LORD spake unto David my father, saying, Thy son, whom I will set upon thy throne in thy room, he shall build an house unto my name.
Most would say it was Salomon to whom it spoke about, and indeed it was, except for one thing, King Salomon built and earthly house which was destroyed.

But the true message was directed, via that verse to Jesus, who was to build a spiritual house which shall never end, given the throne of his Father David.

That is why the following verse takes meaning: Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The house of Davis becomes “as God” with respect to Jesus, for the redemption of the world.

The concept of God saving the world via His Son is the theme intertwined, in spiritual messages, through the whole of the bible history of the mankind, beginning with Abraham.

Jesus came saving the world “as God”.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Ken Brown]

The key to understand here is two words: "as God".
Only God could redeem His own creation because mankind was made short of perfection or in other words, a lesser god.

So, unless God Himself, becomes as a man, mankind does not stand a chance for survival after this fleshly life is over.

Therefore, Jesus "as God" in the flesh, with all the authority of God, "as God" takes the hit for us. In our place.

So, Jesus in complying with all the requirements of an earthly man, as a son of man, also fulfills all the requirements as the "Son of God".

Whether we believe it or not does not change the fact that salvation has come tous all regardless.

Blessings, AJ

Hi AJ (look3467), you are correct in your view that mankind was "made short of perfection," for Elohim has consigned ALL to disobedience (Rom 11:32), and He also subjected this creation to "vanity," with the hope of transforming it to be as the Children of Elohim (Rom 8:20-21). The word Paul uses for "vanity" is:

G3153
ματαιότης
mataiotēs
mat-ah-yot'-ace
From G3152; inutility; figuratively transientness; morally depravity: - vanity.

So Elohim subjected mankind to moral depravity, by creating Adam and Eve FLESH. The flesh cannot and will not submit to obedience, but rather disobedience (Rom 8:5-8), and according to Elohim's plan, the earthly/fleshly man was FIRST, NOT the Heavenly/Spiritual Man:

1Co 15:45-49
(45) Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural (fleshly man), and then the spiritual.
(47) The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
(48) As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
(49) Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

So according to the predetermined plan of Elohim, fleshly or carnal man had to come FIRST, and THEN the Spiritual Man. Now why would He do something like this? Isn't it to teach us and train us how to become like Him, to know good AND evil, and choose the good? Consider this:

Gen 3:22
(22) Then Yahweh Elohim said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—"

So IF Elohim created us UNDER sin (by creating us FLESH), so that we could come to understand and know what good and evil is all about, isn't it only fair that He send forth someone who would be like us in EVERY WAY (Heb 2:17-18, 4:15), and who would show us how to overcome, as He overcame through His suffering, and was made Perfect:

Heb 2:10
(10) For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

Heb 5:8-9
(8) Although he was a son (a man), he learned obedience through what he suffered.
(9) And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

You see AJ, Yeshua came to redeem us OUT from under the condition that sinful man was created in (which is sin), and to be set free FROM sin. Elohim is PERFECTING us, and making us to be LIKE Him, and it took Him becoming a man and showing us the WAY. And that way is to suffer for the sake of others, to give of yourself, and serve in humility as He did (Phil 2). Therefore, those who are Children of Elohim (Psa 82:6, John 10:34-35), stops practicing sin, and becomes righteous, as He is righteous:

1Jn 3:2-10
(2) Beloved, now we are the children of Elohim, and it was not yet revealed what we shall be. But we know that if He is revealed, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.
(3) And everyone having this hope on Him purifies himself even as that One is pure.
(4) Everyone practicing sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
(5) And you know that that One was revealed that He might take away our sins, and sin is not in Him.
(6) Everyone remaining in Him does not sin. Everyone sinning has not seen Him, nor known Him.
(7) Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
(8) The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of Elohim was revealed, that He might destroy the works of the devil (which is sin).
(9) Everyone who has been begotten of Elohim does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of Elohim.
(10) By this the children of Elohim and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of Elohim; also the one not loving his brother.

It is not a matter of Yeshua "taking a hit for us," and "dying in our place," as THAT would be AGAINST Scripture, for the soul which sins shall die, not the sinless One shall die in the place of the wicked (Exo 23:7, Pro 17:15, Ezek 18:20-23, 33:11-16). Those who think that Elohim needs to punish the Righteous and Innocent One in the place of sinners, just so that He can forgive them, is under a Strong Delusion. Yeshua died, and His blood was shed by ALL sinners, so that sinners could die also and no longer dwell in sin. Sinners are being saved FROM their sin, by coming to a knowledge of the truth concerning what their sin did (killed Yeshua). This salvation does not allow a sinner to fall back into their sin, their former way of life, to where they would again have to be brought to repentance FROM their sin, thus, re-crucifying Him anew (Heb 6:6).

It's pretty simple when you see it AJ, Elohim is making us to be as He is, and it took us first to experience darkness (evil) before we could come into the Light (good), and be LIKE Him. In the day that He heals the wound that He inflicted, we will be as He is, and He will be magnified even greater:

Isa 30:26
(26) The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day Yahweh binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted.

Zec 12:8
(8) In that day shall Yahweh defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as Elohim, as the angel of Yahweh before them.

KB

 

[Prophet]

Sorry look3467. I don't think he'll be back.

 

[look3467]

Hi AJ (look3467), you are correct in your view that mankind was "made short of perfection," for Elohim has consigned ALL to disobedience (Rom 11:32), and He also subjected this creation to "vanity," with the hope of transforming it to be as the Children of Elohim (Rom 8:20-21). The word Paul uses for "vanity" is:

G3153
ματαιότης
mataiotēs
mat-ah-yot'-ace
From G3152; inutility; figuratively transientness; morally depravity: - vanity.

So Elohim subjected mankind to moral depravity, by creating Adam and Eve FLESH. The flesh cannot and will not submit to obedience, but rather disobedience (Rom 8:5-8), and according to Elohim's plan, the earthly/fleshly man was FIRST, NOT the Heavenly/Spiritual Man:

1Co 15:45-49
(45) Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural (fleshly man), and then the spiritual.
(47) The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
(48) As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
(49) Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

So according to the predetermined plan of Elohim, fleshly or carnal man had to come FIRST, and THEN the Spiritual Man. Now why would He do something like this? Isn't it to teach us and train us how to become like Him, to know good AND evil, and choose the good? Consider this:

Gen 3:22
(22) Then Yahweh Elohim said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—"

So IF Elohim created us UNDER sin (by creating us FLESH), so that we could come to understand and know what good and evil is all about, isn't it only fair that He send forth someone who would be like us in EVERY WAY (Heb 2:17-18, 4:15), and who would show us how to overcome, as He overcame through His suffering, and was made Perfect:

Heb 2:10
(10) For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

Heb 5:8-9
(8) Although he was a son (a man), he learned obedience through what he suffered.
(9) And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

You see AJ, Yeshua came to redeem us OUT from under the condition that sinful man was created in (which is sin), and to be set free FROM sin. Elohim is PERFECTING us, and making us to be LIKE Him, and it took Him becoming a man and showing us the WAY. And that way is to suffer for the sake of others, to give of yourself, and serve in humility as He did (Phil 2). Therefore, those who are Children of Elohim (Psa 82:6, John 10:34-35), stops practicing sin, and becomes righteous, as He is righteous:

1Jn 3:2-10
(2) Beloved, now we are the children of Elohim, and it was not yet revealed what we shall be. But we know that if He is revealed, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is.
(3) And everyone having this hope on Him purifies himself even as that One is pure.
(4) Everyone practicing sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
(5) And you know that that One was revealed that He might take away our sins, and sin is not in Him.
(6) Everyone remaining in Him does not sin. Everyone sinning has not seen Him, nor known Him.
(7) Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
(8) The one practicing sin is of the devil, because the devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of Elohim was revealed, that He might destroy the works of the devil (which is sin).
(9) Everyone who has been begotten of Elohim does not sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been born of Elohim.
(10) By this the children of Elohim and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of Elohim; also the one not loving his brother.

It is not a matter of Yeshua "taking a hit for us," and "dying in our place," as THAT would be AGAINST Scripture, for the soul which sins shall die, not the sinless One shall die in the place of the wicked (Exo 23:7, Pro 17:15, Ezek 18:20-23, 33:11-16). Those who think that Elohim needs to punish the Righteous and Innocent One in the place of sinners, just so that He can forgive them, is under a Strong Delusion. Yeshua died, and His blood was shed by ALL sinners, so that sinners could die also and no longer dwell in sin. Sinners are being saved FROM their sin, by coming to a knowledge of the truth concerning what their sin did (killed Yeshua). This salvation does not allow a sinner to fall back into their sin, their former way of life, to where they would again have to be brought to repentance FROM their sin, thus, re-crucifying Him anew (Heb 6:6).

It's pretty simple when you see it AJ, Elohim is making us to be as He is, and it took us first to experience darkness (evil) before we could come into the Light (good), and be LIKE Him. In the day that He heals the wound that He inflicted, we will be as He is, and He will be magnified even greater:

Isa 30:26
(26) The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven days, on the day Yahweh binds up the fracture of His people and heals the bruise He has inflicted.

Zec 12:8
(8) In that day shall Yahweh defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as Elohim, as the angel of Yahweh before them.

KB

Ken

Very well stated! I am in agreement with you on all of it except the part where mankind can not reach a state of perfection without the second (perfect man sacrifice) man being our substitute.

That only means that being shown the path and the way does not gain ones salvation by works of righteousness, but rather by the shed blood of the perfect one.

That being the case, IMO, the path and the way does lead one to Christ in acknowledging His sacrifice as our own, granting us salvation solely based on His faithful obedience. Living in the flesh and knowing ones salvation is secure is a blessing of privilege. Solely the responsibility of the Holy Spirit.

But if, one has no knowledge, or even if one has knowledge of, which in many cases is, but does not accept that knowledge as ones own, than salvation is differed until death of the flesh, upon which ones soul will bow at the feet of Jesus and be instantly saved.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

Sorry look3467. I don't think he'll be back.

Why?

Blessings. AJ

 

[Prophet]

He would rather dodge than admit defeat.

 

[look3467]

He would rather dodge than admit defeat.

Your wishing, right?

Blessings, AJ