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If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
The Trinity was still there. The only difference is that He left His glory and power to confront Satan on the same level as Adam and thus is called the second Adam. Still God but manifested on earth as fully man (but without sin). The reason why God had to create the body in Mary)

He left His glory and power - where did he left it?
Still God but manifested on earth as fully man (but without sin)? Where are these in the bible or these are just your explanations instead of the No and Yes answer?
It came from the evil one.

John 17:1-3 New International Version (NIV)

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
images


What is eternal life?
  1. To know the Father as the ONLY true God
  2. and to know that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father
What is the opposite of eternal life?
Eternal punishment is the opposite of eternal life.
Just don't believe what Jesus said and eternal punishment will be waiting.

Why don't people believe what Jesus said?
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John 12:39-40 New International Version (NIV)

For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”

upload_2017-5-17_14-56-7.jpeg
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
He left His glory and power - where did he left it?
Why ask me? Let scriptures speak for itself.

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory and majesty that I had with You before the world existed.

I took note that you really haven't refuted my position. "Where" doesn't change the scripture that said he emptied himself. Nor does it change the fact that he said to refill him with the glory and majesty that he had BEFORE the world existed.

Nor does it change "and the Word WAS GOD"

Nor does it change the reality that you are a three part being, spirit soul body, but still one person. We were made in His image and in His likeness.

But you DO show a lot of pictures. GREAT VARIETY. Doesn't answer any questions but it sure brings colors to your posts.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Why ask me? Let scriptures speak for itself.

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory and majesty that I had with You before the world existed.

I took note that you really haven't refuted my position. "Where" doesn't change the scripture that said he emptied himself. Nor does it change the fact that he said to refill him with the glory and majesty that he had BEFORE the world existed.

Nor does it change "and the Word WAS GOD"

Nor does it change the reality that you are a three part being, spirit soul body, but still one person. We were made in His image and in His likeness.

But you DO show a lot of pictures. GREAT VARIETY. Doesn't answer any questions but it sure brings colors to your posts.

What is glory? praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent

Definition of GLORY

It is not power, it is glory! Praise, Honor not God powers.
upload_2017-5-18_0-25-26.jpeg

Even Americans use glory to the banner.

Examples of glory in a sentence. As a young soldier he dreamed of winning military glory. He now has only a few trophies to remind him of the glory of his athletic career. Let us give glory to God. The glory of the town is its fountain.

I don't know but you as an American should know English better than like me a Filipino. Ok, I find that very strange but I would understand if you are an immigrant. Okay?

You mentioned that the Lord Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. But I have disclosed in John 8:40-45 that he said he is "a Man who heard the truth from God." Was he lying?

Of course not, unless your Jesus lied because my Jesus did not lie. But did you know that people who refuse to believe that Jesus is truly human (like saying he is God manifested in the flesh) are the antichrists? Would you agree to that?

There are many antichrist during the apostles time. They saw it. 1 John 2:18 The Jews and the pagans were called by the apostles antichrist because they do not recognize Jesus as the Christ 1 John 2:22 They refuse to acknowledge Jesus 1 John 4:3

And lastly the antichrist are people who refuse to believe Jesus is a man 2 John 1:7

MSG
There are a lot of smooth-talking charlatans loose in the world who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ was truly human, a flesh-and-blood human being. Give them their true title: Deceiver! Antichrist!
upload_2017-5-18_0-44-53.jpeg


You may not like it and reject it
Or you could think about it and do something about it
But the truth is something we all have to face.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.
How do we know Matthew got it right? It may be a fictitious story.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
What is glory? praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent

Definition of GLORY

.

I prefer the more biblical Greek definition:
    1. magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
    2. majesty
      1. a thing belonging to God
      2. the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity
 

Athena Plato

"Who do you say I am?"
Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.



“Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And He said to them. Ye say that I am.” ---Luke 22:70, King James Bible.

Regardless of the rumours, Jesus never said that He was God. Some say that because He did not deny He was God, when others said it, means that He was. But, that's not Proof. We are all God’s Children, which makes Jesus God’s Son. That’s a Fact. The difference between Him and Us is that He memorized God’s Scripture and understood God’s Parables.

God’s relationship with the Devil? Our Creator (Author) can take any Good or Evil Form. In the Old Test-ament, it was a Wise Serpent who taught Eve (First Woman), the difference between Good and Evil. She shared it with Adam (First Man), but could not teach Him anything and God destroyed Man in a Flood. God saved Noah, a Good Man, but eventually the mixture became diluted, and Man turned Evil again.

In the New Test-ament, instead of starting over again, God mated with a Woman. Our Creator took the Form of the Devil, to teach Jesus the difference between Good and Evil. Jesus shared it with Mankind, but just like Eve and God, Jesus could not teach Him anything, and Man killed God’s Son and buried Him in a Cave. Although God and Jesus Forgave Man’s Sin (Ignorance), look at what He has become?

“…the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with mortal mixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, begin unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly and to him who had an eye to see grew visibility debased, for they were losing their precious gifts…” ---Critias, Plato, Lost Island of Atlantis, (Earth) Modern Day Status.

PS: Great Question!
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
I prefer the more biblical Greek definition:
    1. magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
    2. majesty
      1. a thing belonging to God
      2. the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity

doyouspeakshakespearelanguage-14-638.jpg


Joseph, son of Jacob and Rachel, said:

Genesis 45:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

“And behold, your eyes and the eyes of my brother Benjamin see that it is my mouth that speaks to you. So you shall tell my father of all my glory in Egypt, and of all that you have seen; and you shall hurry and bring my father down here.”

Is Joseph, god too?

Jeremiah 22:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

Therefore thus says the Lord concerning Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah:

“They shall not lament for him,
Saying, ‘Alas, my brother!’ or ‘Alas, my sister!’
They shall not lament for him,
Saying, ‘Alas, master!’ or ‘Alas, his glory!’

Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, god too?

Proverbs 20:29 New King James Version (NKJV)

The glory of young men is their strength,
And the splendor of old men is their gray head.

Young men are gods too?

Glory is Honor and Praise

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Unless Americans want to be gods too? Hmmmm?

Now that happens when non-Greeks try to be Greeks

 

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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Joseph, son of Jacob and Rachel, said:

Genesis 45:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)

“And behold, your eyes and the eyes of my brother Benjamin see that it is my mouth that speaks to you. So you shall tell my father of all my glory in Egypt, and of all that you have seen; and you shall hurry and bring my father down here.”

Is Joseph, god too?

Strawman....

Did Joseph say to God "Now glorify me with the glory that I once held with you from the beginning"?

That's because "IN THE BEGINNING... AND THE WORD WAS GOD". There isn't anything that says Joseph was god.

I prefer believing scripture!

You may not like it and reject it
Or you could think about it and do something about it
But the truth is something we all have to face.
 
Last edited:

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Strawman....

Did Joseph say to God "Now glorify me with the glory that I once held with you from the beginning"?

That's because "IN THE BEGINNING... AND THE WORD WAS GOD". There isn't anything that says Joseph was god.

I prefer believing scripture!

You may not like it and reject it
Or you could think about it and do something about it
But the truth is something we all have to face.

tenor.gif


Who wrote those phrases or verses in the Bible? It was apostle John, it was an opening for the Book of John - done in a Hellenistic style very popular at that time. Let us check the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible

John 1:1 New International Version (NIV)

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.


The verse have 3 phrases as shown above and if you would check the copy of your bible these 3 phrases have 2 commas and a period for the last.
What does it mean to you? There are 2 gods?
One is God - the original God
One is the Word - who was God

I thought you had three (3) gods - where is the other one?
When the Word was God - it is a past tense isn't it? He is no longer a God - the Word? Then God would be two (2) and the Word was God - no longer God - is that it?

And connecting that with this:

"Now glorify me with the glory that I once held with you from the beginning"?

It would mean the Word was God or Jesus was God
but no longer God - being a past tense "was"
Then you are left with 2 gods, instead of three (3), isn't it?

You have 2 gods in heaven
While the Word was no longer god?
Then the Trinity is no longer a Trias
It is a Duo as the Word was god (no longer god)

That is when people equate the Word in John 1:1 is Jesus Christ. The Word in John 1:1 is about Jesus Christ, not Jesus Christ himself.

James Moffatt New Testament - THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.
upload_2017-5-19_0-11-56.jpeg

John 1:1 Moffatt(i) 1

THE Logos existed in the very beginning,
the Logos was with God,
the Logos was divine.

images


The truth is this:

Ephesians 4:4-6 New International Version (NIV)

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You know, you never really explained the verse other than posting great videos that say nothing.


James Moffatt New Testament - THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.

John 1:1 Moffatt(i) 1

THE Logos existed in the very beginning,
the Logos was with God,
the Logos was divine.

Divine:

1religion
: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god
: being a deity the divine Savior a divine ruler
: directed to a deity

Still says the same!!!

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NIV
1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. NLT
1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. CEB
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God. JB2000
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE
1 In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. DARBY

You may not like it and reject it
Or you could think about it and do something about it
But the truth is something we all have to face.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. NIV

John%2B1.1%2BThe%2BWord%2Bwas%2BGod.png


THE proponents of the Christ-is-God theology so confidently affirm that the verse John 1:1 (specially the third clause) expressly supports their belief that one is led to think that this verse explicitly calls Jesus Christ “God.” However, the first verse of The Gospel According to John states:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1).

The Greek text of John 1:1 states:

’ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
En arche en o logos, kai o logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en o logos.

In this and in other Greek versions of the Bible, we do not find the name “Jesus Christ” in the first verse of the Fourth Gospel. Also, none of the Bible’s English translation, strictly so called, could be shown to contain the name of Jesus Christ in that verse.

Thus, the Greek text, the Greek versions of the Bible, and the English translations of the Bible, strictly so called, do not contain the name of Jesus Christ in the first verse of the Fourth Gospel, the Gospel According to John.

However, the proponents of the belief in the deity of Christ still so confidently believe that this verse (specially the third clause which says “the Word was God”) expressly supports their belief. Hence, let us examine the interpretations and text itself of the third clause of John 1:1 to determine whether or not they are justified in asserting that Jesus Christ is called God in this verse.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. NLT

WE MUST EMPLOY LOGICAL ANALYSIS “TO DETERMINED
WHAT PROMPTED JOHN’S FAIRLY UNUSUAL SYNTAX”


The English translation “and the Word was God” comes from the Greek “kai theos en o logos.” Professor Millard J. Erickson, author of many boks in Christian theology, says that we must employ logical analysis “to determined what prompted John’s fairly unusual syntax” (Erickson, p. 460).

Millard Erickson - Wikipedia
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Note that in the Greek text, the term “theos” (God) comes before the subject of the clause, “o logos” (the Word): καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (kai theos en o logos/and the Word was God). The key to learn what John might mean is to determine how John used the simple copula (the verb “ἦν”) in θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (the Word WAS God) – to determine the copular relationship of “theos” (God) and “o logos” (the Word).

Erickson cites at least three possible meanings of the verb “ἦν” (“was”) in New Testament Greek in which John wrote to determine what John might mean by the third clause of John 1:1:

“In an Indo-European language like New Testament Greek, there are at least three usages of the simple copula. One is the ‘is’ of conclusion, where the subject is said to be a member of a class. One is the ‘is’ of of predication or of attribution, where a particular quality is predicated of the subject by use of an adjective. The final use is the ‘is’ of identity, where the subject is equivalent with the predicate. This is, in the terminology of logic, a double A-type proposition where ‘All X is Y’ and ‘All Y is X.’ Such propositions are invertible: in other words, there really is no subject and predicate, only nouns in the first and second position.” (Erickson, p. 460)


WHY JOHN WOULD NEVER MEANT IN HIS WRITING
THAT “THE WORD IS GOD HIMSELF” WHEN HE SAID
“THE WORD WAS GOD”


Interestingly, “‘is’ of conclusion” and “‘is’ of identity” are how the proponents of Christ-is-God theoogy interpret the clause “the Word was God” to prove their belief that Jesus Christ is God. For instance, Bruce A. Demarest, in his book says that in this verse:

Faculty | Denver Seminary
bruce%20demarest%20christian%20theology_people_profile.jpeg


“John stresses the Logos’ eternal identity with God: ‘and the Word was God’. John wants us to know that the Word was not merely God’s eternal companion; He was in truth God Himself.” (Demarest, p. 25)

Demarest interprets the clause on the basis of his understanding that the copular relationship between the “logos” (Word) and “theos” (God) is that of identification. He interpret the verb “en” (was) as “’is’ of identification.” This is also how many people interpret the clause “the Word was God” which led them to believe that this clause proves that Jesus Christ is “God Himself.”

However, the interpretation that identifies the Word with God is indeed very difficult to defend, because the preceeding clause states that ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν (“the Word was with God”). If it is true that the Word is God Himself (as their interpretation of the clause “the Word was God”), then there must be two Gods, because John 1:1 also said that “the Word was with God” – one “God” (the Word) who is with another God (the God who the Word was with). This is unacceptable with monotheistic people to whom John was writing. John would never contradict what he wrote in John 17:3:

“And this is the real and eternal life: THAT THEY KNOW YOU, THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, And Jesus Christ, whom you sent.” (John 17:3 The Message, emphasis ours)

Thus, John would never meant in his writing that “the Word is God Himself” when he said “the Word was God” because he will not contradict himself by saying in one part of his writing that “the Word is God Himself” and writing in another that “the Word was with God.” Also, John would never contradict what he wrote that the Father of Jesus Christ is the one and only true God.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. CEB

WHY THE CLAUSE “THE WORD WAS GOD” WOULD NEVER
REFERS TO THE “DIVINE RELATIONSHIP OF THE TRINITY”


To avoid the difficulty of the “simple copula of identification,” other proponents of Christ-is-God theology assert that “there is a Divine relationship between the ‘Word’ and ‘God’ without absolute identification.” Says James M. Pratt in his booklet The Deity of Jesus of Nazareth:

“The ‘Word’ (Gk. logos)’was God’. John both identifies the Word as God as well as distinguishes Him from God. In other words, there is a Divine relationship between the ‘Word’ and ‘God’ without absolute identification. That is, while the Word is Deity. He is not the Father. For John, God is a larger entity than God the Father.” (Pratt, pp. 48-49)

Pratt’s interpretation of “was” in the clause “the Word was God” conforms to “simple copula of conclusion” rather than “simple copula of identification.” For him, the Word was God in the sense that the Word is a member of a class of being known as God. Neither the Word alone God nor is the Father alone God. He said, “God is a larger entity than God the Father.” Pratt’s interpretation can be summarized in the words of Professor Murray J. Harris:

Murray J. Harris - Wikipedia
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“Like the Father, and equally with him, the Logos may be included within the category of Deity as a partaker in the divine essence.” (Harris, p. 67)

In other words, the reason why there is no absolute identification between the Word and the Father, only divine relationship, is they are both parts of a larger entity, God, where one is God the Father and the other is God the Son. This is how trinitarians interpret the third clause of John 1:1 (“the Word was God”). However, even those scholars who uphold the trinity doctrine admit that the absence of any reference to the so-called God the Holy Spirit in the verse, is a gaping hole in that argument. Says Professor Harris:

“…the articular θεὸς [theos] could not refer to the divine essence (‘the Word was with the divine nature’ is nonsensical) or to the trinitarian God (since ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν [en pros ton theon] is predicated of the Logos-Son and the Spirit is not mentioned or alluded to elsewhere in the Prologue).” (Harris, p. 55)

This interpretation of John 1:1 that it shows divine relation between the Father and the Word, that they are both parts of a larger entity, God, where one is God the Father and the other is God the Son,
is also very difficult to defend because John would never conforms with the idea that God the Father is only a part of a larger entity, God.

John wrote Jesus’ statement giving distinction between Jesus and the Father like what is written in John 14:28:

“You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, FOR THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.” (John 14:28 NIV, emphasis mine)

John also wrote Jesus’ statement giving distinction between Jesus and God:

“I AM A MAN who has told you the truth which I HEARD FROM GOD, but you are trying to kill me. Abraham did nothing like that.” (John 8:40-41 NCV, emphasis mine)

“If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.” (John 7:17 NIV)

But John never made a distinction between God and the Father, because he wrote Jesus’ statement that identified the Father as the one and only trie God:

“Jesus said these things. Then, raising his eyes in prayer, he said: Father, it's time…
“And this is the real and eternal life: THAT THEY KNOW YOU, THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD, And Jesus Christ, whom you sent.” (John 17:1 and 3 The Message, emphasis ours)

In fact, nowhere in the entire book of the Gospel According to John that John ever make a distinction between God and the Father let alone hint that there is “a larger entity” than God the Father. This statement wrote by Apostle Paul refutes the trinitarian belief that there is “a larger entity” than God the Father:

“One God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:6 RSV)

Therefore, the assertion that there is a larger entity than God the Father is without biblical basis. How can there be a larger entity than the Creator of all things Himself? Says Apostle Paul:

“Yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.” (I Corinthians 8:6 TEV)

Thus, the weakness of interpreting the trinity in John 1:1c is this interpretation presupposes more than what the verse actually states. Nowhere in the verse, nor in the entire book for that matter, does John ever make a distinction between God and the Father let alone hint that there is “a larger entity” than God the Father. Basing such an interpretation of John 1:1 on such presuppositions would be an exegetical argument, dependent ultimately on circular reasoning. Existence of the Trinity is first assumed in order to interpret the verse, and then the verse is used in order to defend the doctrine of the Trinity. For this reason alone, we can dismiss a trinitarian interpretation as unscriptural.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God. JB2000

WHAT DOES JOHN MEAN WHEN HE SAID
THAT “THE WORD WAS GOD”?


Professor Bruce Vowter, a Catholic biblical scholar and a trinitarian, on his commentray on “The Gospel According to John” agrees with the “Simple copula of predication”:

“Here ‘God’ without the article is oredicative. The Word is divine, but he is not all of divinity, for he has already been distinguished from another divine person.” (Vowler, p. 422)

This trinitarian holds that “’God’ without the article is predicative.” The word “theos” is mentioned in the last two clauses of John 1:1. But, please take note the differences:

“En arche en o logos, kai o logos en pros TON THEON, kai THEOS en o logos.”

The second clause mentioned the word “theos” but with definite article “ton” (“the”), but take note that in the third clause, the word “theos” is mentioned without definite article “kai THEOS en o logos.” However, the word “logos” is mentioned in all the three clauses, and all mention of “logos” there is a definite article before it (“o logos”). Because of this, Vowler concluded “Here ‘God’ without the article is oredicative.” Remember what Erickson said about the “simple copula of predication”?

“…One is the ‘is’ of of predication or of attribution, where a particular quality is predicated of the subject by use of an adjective. The final use is the ‘is’ of identity, where the subject is equivalent with the predicate. This is, in the terminology of logic, a double A-type proposition where ‘All X is Y’ and ‘All Y is X.’ Such propositions are invertible: in other words, there really is no subject and predicate, only nouns in the first and second position.” (Erickson, p. 460)

To be classified as “simple copula of identification” or “simple copula of conclusion”, Erickson said, “there really is no subject and predicate, only nouns in the first and second position.” But, in the third clause of John 1:1, the absence of a definite article confirms that the term theos (God) function not as a noun, but as predicate, and the term o logos (the Word) is the subject. Because of this reason we can dismiss the use of the simple copula (verb “en”) of the third clause of John 1:1 as “is of identification” and “is of conclusion.” Thus, the Word is not God Himself, and not a part of a larger entity called “God.”

Those who interpret this (“kai theos en o logos” - “and the Word was God”) to mean that Jesus Christ is God accuse those who hold the opposite view of making so much of the omission of the definite article “o” (Greek for “the”) before theos (Greek for “God”). The implication of such criticism is that the omission of “o” before “theos” is not that important.

However, those critics easilly dismiss the importance of the article before “theos” would not only have to answer why the article is “omitted,” but also face those thoughtful and sincere trinitarian scholars who, although not completely certain why the article was “omitted,” cannot deny the importance of this “omission.” According to the admission of Professor Harris, a trinitarian, the absence of the article before the term theos:

“…show that the statement ‘the Word was God’ is not convertible position. John thereby denies that “God was the Word.” (Harris, p. 63)

Had there been an article with both nouns, the proposition would have been true in both directions (“the Word was God”; “God was the Word”). But John did not say that. With the absence of a definite article, “the statement ‘the Word was God’ is not convertible position.” Indeed, JOHN DENIES THAT “GOD WAS THE WORD.”

It is like the statement “Time is Gold.” But, surely it is not in convertible position, as “Time is Gold”; “Gold is Time.” Indeed, “Time is Gold” but “Gold is not Time.” THUS, WITH THE ABSENCE OF A DEFINITE ARTICLE, “THE WORD WAS GOD” BUT “GOD IS NOT THE WORD.”

Without the definite article, theos (God) is predicative and has the significance of an adjective describing the characteristic of the logos (Word). As Vowler said, “Here ‘God’ without the article is oredicative. The Word is divine…” Thus, the reason why some Bible scholars and translators translated John 1:1 as:

John 1:1 Goodspeed
“…and the Word was divine.”

John 1:1 Moffatt
“…the Logos was divine.”

In the statement “the Word was God”, the term theos (God) is not used as the subject, but as predicate, an adjecive. John used the term theos (God) to described the characteristic of the logos (Word). So, why does the text say θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (the Word was God)?

“For no word from God shall be void of power.” (Luke 1:37 ASV)

Like God eho is almighty or all-powerful (Gen. 35:11), no word of God is without power.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE
1 In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. DARBY

BELIEVERS IN THE DEITY OF CHRIST WRESTED THE
VERSE AND TRIED TO TWIST IT TO FORCE OUT
THE MEANING THAT THEY WANTED IT TO YIELD


How do the believers in the deity of Christ explain the absence of a definite article before the term theos? The proponents of the belief that Christ is God wrested with the verse and tried to twist it around to force out the meaning that they wanted it to yield. Here is some example:

“Why, then, is θεὸς [theos] anarthrousin John 1:1c? Although it is inappropriate to speak of John’s omission of the article, one may justifiably speak of his purpose in writing θεὸς [theos]rather than, say, ὸ θεὸς [ho theos] or θεὶὸς [ho theios] or θεὸv [theon].. Having distinguished the Logos from the Father (τὸν θεόν [ton theon], 1:1b) John wished to point to their commonality, not merely in purpose but in being (θεὸς [theos]). Lke the Father, and equally with him, the Logos may be included within the category of deity as a partaker of divine essence. If, then, a single reason is to be given for the anarthrous state of θεὸς [theos], it is that this noun is qualitative, emphasizing nature rather than personal identity. In an incidental manner, this anarthous θεὸς [theos] also confirms that the articularλόγος is the subject of the clause and excludes the inferencethat the Word exhausts the category of Deity or that the Son was the Father.” (Harris, p.67)

So far, we can see how complicated and involved are the interpretations given to John 1:1c by the proponents of the deity of Christ. They made their interpretations more complicated believing that they can lure the innocents to believe that their interpretations answer the difficulty given by John’s omission of the article ὸ before the term θεὶὸς. But, how much complicated their interpretations are, still these are only their own interpretations. The fact remains that the absence of the article ὸ before the term θεὸς shows that this is a predicate, and articular λόγος is the subject, thus, it shows that the statement ‘the Word was God’ is not convertible position. John thereby denies that “God was the Word. Without the definite article, theos (God) is predicative and has the significance of an adjective describing the characteristic of the logos (Word).

CONCLUSION

We must employ logical analysis and consult the truth written in the Bible, and not to resort to opinions or interpretations “to determined what prompted John’s fairly unusual syntax.

The English translation “and the Word was God” comes from the Greek “kai theos en o logos.” Note that in the Greek text, the term “theos” (God) comes before the subject of the clause, “o logos” (the Word). Thus, the key to learn what John might mean is to determine how John used the simple copula (the verb “ἦν”) in θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (the Word WAS God) – to determine the copular relationship of “theos” (God) and “o logos” (the Word).

At least three possible meanings of the verb “ἦν” (“was”) in New Testament Greek in which John wrote to determine what John might mean by the third clause of John 1:1: (1) “is of identification”; (2) “is of conclusion”; and (3) “is of predication.”

If the use of the term “en” (was) in the clause “theos EN o logos” (“the Word WAS God”) is “simple copula of identification” – John would mean “the Word is God Himself”; If it’s “simple copula of conclusion” – John would mean “the Word is a part of a larger entity called ‘God’”; But if it’s “simple copula of predication” – the term theos(God) is a predicate, thus, John used the term theos (God) to described the characteristic of the logos (Word).

However, To be classified as “simple copula of identification” or “simple copula of conclusion,” there really is no subject and predicate, only nouns in the first and second position. But, in the third clause of John 1:1, the word “theos” is mentioned without definite article – “kai THEOS en o logos.” The absence of the definite article before the term “theos” proves:

(1) the term theos (God) function not as a noun, but as predicate, and the term o logos (Word) is the subject;

(2) because the term theos (God) function not as a noun, but as predicate, we can dismiss the use of the simple copula (verb “en”) of the third clause of John 1:1 as “is of identification” and “is of conclusion.” Thus, the Word is not God Himself, and not a part of a larger entity called “God”;

(3) it shows that the statement ‘the Word was God’ is not convertible position, John thereby denies that “God was the Word.” Thus, with the absence of a definite article, “the Word was God,” but “God is not the Word.”

(4) Without the definite article, theos (God) is predicative and has the significance of an adjective describing the characteristic of the logos (Word) – the “Word was divine” (John 1:1 Goodspeed).

THEREFORE, JESUS CHRIST IS NEVER CALLED GOD IN JOHN 1:1.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
BELIEVERS IN THE DEITY OF CHRIST WRESTED THE
VERSE AND TRIED TO TWIST IT TO FORCE OUT
THE MEANING THAT THEY WANTED IT TO YIELD


How do the believers in the deity of Christ explain the absence of a definite article before the term theos? The proponents of the belief that Christ is God wrested with the verse and tried to twist it around to force out the meaning that they wanted it to yield. Here is some example:

“Why, then, is θεὸς [theos] anarthrousin John 1:1c? Although it is inappropriate to speak of John’s omission of the article, one may justifiably speak of his purpose in writing θεὸς [theos]rather than, say, ὸ θεὸς [ho theos] or θεὶὸς [ho theios] or θεὸv [theon].. Having distinguished the Logos from the Father (τὸν θεόν [ton theon], 1:1b) John wished to point to their commonality, not merely in purpose but in being (θεὸς [theos]). Lke the Father, and equally with him, the Logos may be included within the category of deity as a partaker of divine essence. If, then, a single reason is to be given for the anarthrous state of θεὸς [theos], it is that this noun is qualitative, emphasizing nature rather than personal identity. In an incidental manner, this anarthous θεὸς [theos] also confirms that the articularλόγος is the subject of the clause and excludes the inferencethat the Word exhausts the category of Deity or that the Son was the Father.” (Harris, p.67)

So far, we can see how complicated and involved are the interpretations given to John 1:1c by the proponents of the deity of Christ. They made their interpretations more complicated believing that they can lure the innocents to believe that their interpretations answer the difficulty given by John’s omission of the article ὸ before the term θεὶὸς. But, how much complicated their interpretations are, still these are only their own interpretations. The fact remains that the absence of the article ὸ before the term θεὸς shows that this is a predicate, and articular λόγος is the subject, thus, it shows that the statement ‘the Word was God’ is not convertible position. John thereby denies that “God was the Word. Without the definite article, theos (God) is predicative and has the significance of an adjective describing the characteristic of the logos (Word).

CONCLUSION

We must employ logical analysis and consult the truth written in the Bible, and not to resort to opinions or interpretations “to determined what prompted John’s fairly unusual syntax.

The English translation “and the Word was God” comes from the Greek “kai theos en o logos.” Note that in the Greek text, the term “theos” (God) comes before the subject of the clause, “o logos” (the Word). Thus, the key to learn what John might mean is to determine how John used the simple copula (the verb “ἦν”) in θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (the Word WAS God) – to determine the copular relationship of “theos” (God) and “o logos” (the Word).

At least three possible meanings of the verb “ἦν” (“was”) in New Testament Greek in which John wrote to determine what John might mean by the third clause of John 1:1: (1) “is of identification”; (2) “is of conclusion”; and (3) “is of predication.”

If the use of the term “en” (was) in the clause “theos EN o logos” (“the Word WAS God”) is “simple copula of identification” – John would mean “the Word is God Himself”; If it’s “simple copula of conclusion” – John would mean “the Word is a part of a larger entity called ‘God’”; But if it’s “simple copula of predication” – the term theos(God) is a predicate, thus, John used the term theos (God) to described the characteristic of the logos (Word).

However, To be classified as “simple copula of identification” or “simple copula of conclusion,” there really is no subject and predicate, only nouns in the first and second position. But, in the third clause of John 1:1, the word “theos” is mentioned without definite article – “kai THEOS en o logos.” The absence of the definite article before the term “theos” proves:

(1) the term theos (God) function not as a noun, but as predicate, and the term o logos (Word) is the subject;

(2) because the term theos (God) function not as a noun, but as predicate, we can dismiss the use of the simple copula (verb “en”) of the third clause of John 1:1 as “is of identification” and “is of conclusion.” Thus, the Word is not God Himself, and not a part of a larger entity called “God”;

(3) it shows that the statement ‘the Word was God’ is not convertible position, John thereby denies that “God was the Word.” Thus, with the absence of a definite article, “the Word was God,” but “God is not the Word.”

(4) Without the definite article, theos (God) is predicative and has the significance of an adjective describing the characteristic of the logos (Word) – the “Word was divine” (John 1:1 Goodspeed).

THEREFORE, JESUS CHRIST IS NEVER CALLED GOD IN JOHN 1:1.

I agree. The word "word" is logos, meaning someone's plans, thoughts or reasons, etc. The "word" or logos was in the beginning with God, or we can say that God's plans was in the beginning. And of course it is God and with Him. Because it is His plans and thoughts.

Then in verse 14, His plans and spoken word became real and flesh. And that was Jesus. Jesus is not God and John is not saying that Jesus pre-existed. Is Jesus the word? Yes, but it is not Jesus in the flesh in the first few verses until verse 14.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
BELIEVERS IN THE DEITY OF CHRIST WRESTED THE
VERSE AND TRIED TO TWIST IT TO FORCE OUT
THE MEANING THAT THEY WANTED IT TO YIELD


How do the believers in the deity of Christ explain the absence of a definite article before the term theos? The proponents of the belief that Christ is God wrested with the verse and tried to twist it around to force out the meaning that they wanted it to yield. Here is some example:

“Why, then, is θεὸς [theos] anarthrousin John 1:1c? Although it is inappropriate to speak of John’s omission of the article, one may justifiably speak of his purpose in writing θεὸς [theos]rather than, say, ὸ θεὸς [ho theos] or θεὶὸς [ho theios] or θεὸv [theon].. Having distinguished the Logos from the Father (τὸν θεόν [ton theon], 1:1b) John wished to point to their commonality, not merely in purpose but in being (θεὸς [theos]). Lke the Father, and equally with him, the Logos may be included within the category of deity as a partaker of divine essence. If, then, a single reason is to be given for the anarthrous state of θεὸς [theos], it is that this noun is qualitative, emphasizing nature rather than personal identity. In an incidental manner, this anarthous θεὸς [theos] also confirms that the articularλόγος is the subject of the clause and excludes the inferencethat the Word exhausts the category of Deity or that the Son was the Father.” (Harris, p.67)

So far, we can see how complicated and involved are the interpretations given to John 1:1c by the proponents of the deity of Christ. They made their interpretations more complicated believing that they can lure the innocents to believe that their interpretations answer the difficulty given by John’s omission of the article ὸ before the term θεὶὸς. But, how much complicated their interpretations are, still these are only their own interpretations. The fact remains that the absence of the article ὸ before the term θεὸς shows that this is a predicate, and articular λόγος is the subject, thus, it shows that the statement ‘the Word was God’ is not convertible position. John thereby denies that “God was the Word. Without the definite article, theos (God) is predicative and has the significance of an adjective describing the characteristic of the logos (Word).

CONCLUSION

We must employ logical analysis and consult the truth written in the Bible, and not to resort to opinions or interpretations “to determined what prompted John’s fairly unusual syntax.

The English translation “and the Word was God” comes from the Greek “kai theos en o logos.” Note that in the Greek text, the term “theos” (God) comes before the subject of the clause, “o logos” (the Word). Thus, the key to learn what John might mean is to determine how John used the simple copula (the verb “ἦν”) in θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (the Word WAS God) – to determine the copular relationship of “theos” (God) and “o logos” (the Word).

At least three possible meanings of the verb “ἦν” (“was”) in New Testament Greek in which John wrote to determine what John might mean by the third clause of John 1:1: (1) “is of identification”; (2) “is of conclusion”; and (3) “is of predication.”

If the use of the term “en” (was) in the clause “theos EN o logos” (“the Word WAS God”) is “simple copula of identification” – John would mean “the Word is God Himself”; If it’s “simple copula of conclusion” – John would mean “the Word is a part of a larger entity called ‘God’”; But if it’s “simple copula of predication” – the term theos(God) is a predicate, thus, John used the term theos (God) to described the characteristic of the logos (Word).

However, To be classified as “simple copula of identification” or “simple copula of conclusion,” there really is no subject and predicate, only nouns in the first and second position. But, in the third clause of John 1:1, the word “theos” is mentioned without definite article – “kai THEOS en o logos.” The absence of the definite article before the term “theos” proves:

(1) the term theos (God) function not as a noun, but as predicate, and the term o logos (Word) is the subject;

(2) because the term theos (God) function not as a noun, but as predicate, we can dismiss the use of the simple copula (verb “en”) of the third clause of John 1:1 as “is of identification” and “is of conclusion.” Thus, the Word is not God Himself, and not a part of a larger entity called “God”;

(3) it shows that the statement ‘the Word was God’ is not convertible position, John thereby denies that “God was the Word.” Thus, with the absence of a definite article, “the Word was God,” but “God is not the Word.”

(4) Without the definite article, theos (God) is predicative and has the significance of an adjective describing the characteristic of the logos (Word) – the “Word was divine” (John 1:1 Goodspeed).

THEREFORE, JESUS CHRIST IS NEVER CALLED GOD IN JOHN 1:1.
BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It takes me three sentences to explain what it says and it takes you an essay to explain your position and you say we twist it to say what we want???


BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. :D

And His name shall be called Emanuel - God with us!!

I don't even have to explain it!! It's so clear that even a child can understand it.

As one person said "You may not like it and reject it
Or you could think about it and do something about it
But the truth is something we all have to face."
 
Last edited:

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It takes me three sentences to explain what it says and it takes you an essay to explain your position and you say we twist it to say what we want???


BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. :D

And His name shall be called Emanuel - God with us!!

I don't even have to explain it!! It's so clear that even a child can understand it.

As one person said "You may not like it and reject it
Or you could think about it and do something about it
But the truth is something we all have to face."

John 1:1 New International Version (NIV)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

upload_2017-5-20_8-39-33.jpeg


The essay wasn't all mine.
It came from American bible professors who are Trinitarians
Those are their blood in sweat studies
I didn't break a leg for it.

What did they say?
  • Where is Jesus Christ in John 1:1? Not there.
  • The Word is not Jesus Christ but the logos
  • Apostle John did not write John 1:1 to suggest the Trinity
  • In fact it did not even mention about the Trinity
  • If John 1:1 is used to force to the Trinity you will just end up with 2 gods but Apostle John knew who is the only true God.
upload_2017-5-20_8-48-8.jpeg

Even this bible translated by a Trinitarian
James Moffatt - Wikipedia
James Moffatt faithfully translated John 1:1

John 1:1
Moffatt(i) 1 THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine
James Moffatt New Testament - THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.

There is a John 1:1 at en.wikipedia which discusses John 1:1 fairly too.

John 1:1 - Wikipedia

I don't do the twist, I just read.
giphy.gif

Maybe dance the twist with the 50's music.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
John 1:1 New International Version (NIV)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

View attachment 17385

The essay wasn't all mine.
It came from American bible professors who are Trinitarians
Those are their blood in sweat studies
I didn't break a leg for it.

What did they say?
  • Where is Jesus Christ in John 1:1? Not there.
  • The Word is not Jesus Christ but the logos
  • Apostle John did not write John 1:1 to suggest the Trinity
  • In fact it did not even mention about the Trinity
  • If John 1:1 is used to force to the Trinity you will just end up with 2 gods but Apostle John knew who is the only true God.
View attachment 17386
Even this bible translated by a Trinitarian
James Moffatt - Wikipedia
James Moffatt faithfully translated John 1:1

John 1:1
Moffatt(i) 1 THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine
James Moffatt New Testament - THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.

There is a John 1:1 at en.wikipedia which discusses John 1:1 fairly too.

John 1:1 - Wikipedia

I don't do the twist, I just read.
giphy.gif

Maybe dance the twist with the 50's music.


Like I said!!!

BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

It takes me three sentences to explain what it says and it takes you an essay to explain your position and you say we twist it to say what we want???


BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. :D

And His name shall be called Emanuel - God with us!!

I don't even have to explain it!! It's so clear that even a child can understand it.

As one person said "You may not like it and reject it
Or you could think about it and do something about it
But the truth is something we all have to face."
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
Like I said!!!

John 1:1 is the first verse in the opening chapter of the Gospel of John. In the Douay–Rheims, King James, New International, and other versions of the Bible, the verse reads:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The phrase "the Word" (a translation of the Greek word "Logos") is widely interpreted as referring to Jesus, as indicated in other verses later in the same chapter.[4] This verse and others throughout Johannine literature connect the Christian understanding of Jesus to the philosophical idea of the Logos and the Hebrew Wisdom literature. They also set the stage for later understanding development of Trinitarian theology early in the post-biblical era.

John 1:1 - Wikipedia

k61nOBRRBMxva.webp

Trinity belief was only developed, therefore invented.

Like what I said before.
 
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