If Jesus was God, Is the Christian God no more?

[Pegg]

do you consider angels to be a "spiritual" being?

Yes. The spirits in heaven are angels....the angels are spirits.
At Psalm 8:5, the angels are referred to as ’elo‧him′ which is god because they exist in Gods form...they are spirits like him.

does spirit die ?

Yes. Spirits can die. God has proclaimed death to Satan and the angels who rebelled with him. They are spirits and they will be put to death.

Some say that humans have spirits that survive after the body dies, but the bible does not say that about humans. It says the opposite.
Psalm 78:39 "And he kept remembering that they were flesh,
That the spirit is going forth and does not come back."

If not, God know well that his "angel" wouldn't die, it is a matter of human body disposal!

If you are referring to Jesus here, then he was not a spirit angel when he was on earth. His life was transferred into the womb of Mary so that he could be born as a human and live as a human and die as a human.
Jesus was fully man, fully flesh. That is why he could be put to death. Angels are supernatural and do not have physical bodies that can die. But their life force is from God and if God chooses to end the life of a spirit person/angel, he can.

does God feel pain for losing something!

Yes he does. The account of Abraham and Isaac was given as a living illustration of how hard it was for God to give up his own son (Jesus) for us. When you think long and hard about the sacrifice Abraham was asked to give, it helps us to understand what God was doing for us. Even though he knew he could raise Jesus from the dead, it was still a painful experience for him.

We know God feels pain because the bible speaks of the pain the Isrealites caused him.
Psalm 78:40 "How often they would rebel against him in the wilderness, They would make him feel hurt in the desert!
41 And again and again they would put God to the test,
And they pained even the Holy One of Israel"

God the almighty does not feel pain, neither does feel regret; because he does not make mistakes.

The bible informs us that he does feel pain as i've already shown in above scripture. But when it comes to regret, he does not regret in the same way that we do. We feel regret over mistakes that we've made, but as you said, God does not make mistakes so the regret he feels is not about his mistakes but about the mistakes of others. Here are some examples of Gods regrets.

Genesis 6:5-6 Consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time. 6 And Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart"

1 Samuel 15:10 "The word of Jehovah now came to Samuel, saying: 11 “I do regret that I have caused Saul to reign as king, because he has turned back from following me, and my words he has not carried out.”

Jeremiah 18:6-10 . "At any moment that I may speak against a nation and against a kingdom to uproot [it] and to pull [it] down and to destroy [it], 8 and that nation actually turns back from its badness against which I spoke, I will also feel regret over the calamity that I had thought to execute upon it. 9 But at any moment that I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom to build [it] up and to plant [it], 10 and it actually does what is bad in my eyes by not obeying my voice, I will also feel regret over the good that I said [to myself] to do for its good.’

Psalm 106:45 "And he would remember concerning them his covenant, And he would feel regret according to the abundance of his grand loving-kindness

As the context of the above verses show, the regret that God feels always refers to a change in his attitude toward humans due to the way humans behave toward him.

did he realy know his role?

then why did he cried saying "why hast thou forsaken me"?

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

What many dont know is that the words Jesus cried out were similar to the words of King David when he was running from Saul. Psalm 22:1 "My God, my God, why have you left me?
Jesus was at the lowest point in his life. He was in pain and dieing on a stake...anyone of us would feel the same. It was to show us his humanity, to show us that he was fully human and like us, at times of calamity, we ask the same question because calamity upon the innocent is unjust and we know it. Jesus knew it too.

 

[Starsoul]

(pegg, you are really sweet.)

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Dear mohammed_beiruti,
I just now remembered that I had said I'd get back to you on this. Please, forgive my awful forgetfulness!

there were messengers like abraham,moses,david,...,etc, they were sent by God to teach people what God want from them to do .
can't we consider Jesus the same as them?
I mean acording to you dfinition (God’s ideal way of being)?

At our next talk, I must ask for Msgr's thoughts on this particular question, for raised as an atheist, I myself am not well enough acquainted with all biblical figures and cannot properly explain why Christians only admit Jesus as God's self-image (and not all in Bible, who may appear to have lived ideal lives).

Moving on to the "infinity of sacrifice" though; it is said that God's sacrifice of Jesus [as God's self-image], occurred that one time only. However, the effects of that particular sacrifice - God's pardoning of man's inability to eliminate his own ego while still alive and, the chance of repentance, given to mankind - are thought to have been present ever since.
Will they remain so eternally though? According to most believers, probably not. The chance for repentance at least, is said to be limited and, after this certain limited period of time, God is not thought to pardon everyone again.

Till next time,
Hermit

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I'm having a hard time understanding this, how do christians explain this to themselves and others, that Jesus was God, or was one form of God, and yet he died without any defense from God?

How can God be perceived to have died with human interposition? That would mean ,that man is more powerful than God, which cant be true If God was more powerful. And if jesus has died, how could he be God, because God is forever, immortal, untouchable.

Anyone?

Regarding physical death, when your spirit leaves your body, your body is dead. Jesus (God) is a spirit that DWELLED in a human body, and when his spirit left his body, his body was dead, but his spirit lives forever. It is the spirit that is the real "you"...not the body.

 

[Etritonakin]

I'm having a hard time understanding this, how do christians explain this to themselves and others, that Jesus was God, or was one form of God, and yet he died without any defense from God?

How can God be perceived to have died with human interposition? That would mean ,that man is more powerful than God, which cant be true If God was more powerful. And if jesus has died, how could he be God, because God is forever, immortal, untouchable.

Anyone?

Christ and the Father are "one" -because they are in agreement and have always existed together -but they are two beings. A man and woman are two beings -yet become "one" flesh. A group can be made of many individuals -yet can be "one" in purpose, etc...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This also describes two beings -but in unity. The two beings have always existed together -and are always in agreement.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

This is how Christ was on earth -yet prayed to and spoke about his Father in heaven.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

They are not the same being -as they have conversations with each other..... discuss things.... and the Father can even know things Christ does not -such as the day of his return.

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

 

[Muffled]

Regarding physical death, when your spirit leaves your body, your body is dead. Jesus (God) is a spirit that DWELLED in a human body, and when his spirit left his body, his body was dead, but his spirit lives forever. It is the spirit that is the real "you"...not the body.

I believe the text does not specifically say this. The first reference to the death of Jesus was when the soldiers were taking HIm down from the cross. The Qu'ran however states that Jesus did not die so that would mean the body was still alive when the spirit departed.

 

[Muffled]

Christ and the Father are "one" -because they are in agreement and have always existed together -but they are two beings. A man and woman are two beings -yet become "one" flesh. A group can be made of many individuals -yet can be "one" in purpose, etc...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This also describes two beings -but in unity. The two beings have always existed together -and are always in agreement.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

This is how Christ was on earth -yet prayed to and spoke about his Father in heaven.

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

They are not the same being -as they have conversations with each other..... discuss things.... and the Father can even know things Christ does not -such as the day of his return.

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

I believe the text does not say this.

I believe there is no evidence to support this.

However other instances do not mean that this instance is the same.

I believe this is illogical but please do your best to explain why you think so.

It is possible for one being to talk to Himself and it is does not necessitate two beings.

 

[Etritonakin]

I believe the text does not say this.

I believe there is no evidence to support this.

However other instances do not mean that this instance is the same.

I believe this is illogical but please do your best to explain why you think so.

It is possible for one being to talk to Himself and it is does not necessitate two beings.

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Talking to yourself is one thing -but if one knows something the other does not -they are separate.

 

[catch22]

Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Talking to yourself is one thing -but if one knows something the other does not -they are separate.

Perhaps you should read Philippians 2:6-8.

 

[catch22]

To answer the OP, Jesus was God in human form, His death on the cross was temporary -- thus He conquered it. He wouldn't have come back to life 3 days later, hung around for a month and a half, and then ascended to heaven, clearly alive, if He was actually dead.

 

[Desert Snake]

Well I dunno. A better question might be where was the invisible sky being people think is more 'credible' than Jesus being God. On a picnic?
Personally I find the narrative of Jesus 'saying' on the cross, 'God why have you forsaken me'? to be ridiculous. That has 'agenda for plot twist' written all over it. lol

 

[catch22]

Well I dunno. A better question might be where was the invisible sky being people think is more 'credible' than Jesus being God. On a picnic?
Personally I find the narrative of Jesus 'saying' on the cross, 'God why have you forsaken me'? to be ridiculous. That has 'agenda for plot twist' written all over it. lol

What are you talking about? He was quoting scripture. Read Psalm 22. His quote was verse 1. Verses 11-18 are of important note.

Or go on believing in plot twists and what not, whatever suits you.

 

[Desert Snake]

What are you talking about? He was quoting scripture. Read Psalm 22. His quote was verse 1. Verses 11-18 are of important note.

Or go on believing in plot twists and what not, whatever suits you.

It's not what I'm talking about. It's pretty commonly accepted understanding of the narrative. I actually created a thread about Jesus words on the cross, what you are saying isn't 'common knowledge' or anything so your 'incredullosness is ridiculous.

 

[catch22]

It's not what I'm talking about. It's pretty commonly accepted understanding of the narrative. I actually created a thread about Jesus words on the cross, what you are saying isn't 'common knowledge' or anything so your 'incredullosness is ridiculous.

So you created a thread about Psalm 22, and I should know that you're, what? Joking in your last post when you "lol" at my Savior dying on the cross as some silly plot twist to a day time drama program?

How dare I not know you started a thread about that since joining the forum today! PREPOSTEROUS!

You might lookup the word incredulous though, not sure it means what you think it does.

 

[Desert Snake]

So you created a thread about Psalm 22, and I should know that you're, what? Joking in your last post when you "lol" at my Savior dying on the cross as some silly plot twist to a day time drama program?

How dare I not know you started a thread about that since joining the forum today! PREPOSTEROUS!

You might lookup the word incredulous though, not sure it means what you think it does.

Nope, not entirely accurate. I really do believe that people have 'made up' a scenario between Jesus and 'the father'. I believe 'them' to be the same being. Or, if you like, 'Jesus' is God/JHVH. The 'man' Jesus is not separated from the father in knowledge, He even says it explicitly. 'Jesus' is a man, sure, but that doesn't mean He was viewing the father as totally separate from Him. He said, He was in the father, and the father in Him.

 

[catch22]

Nope, not entirely accurate. I really do believe that people have 'made up' a scenario between Jesus and 'the father'. I believe 'them' to be the same being. Or, if you like, 'Jesus' is God/JHVH. The 'man' Jesus is not separated from the father in knowledge, He even says it explicitly. 'Jesus' is a man, sure, but that doesn't mean He was viewing the father as totally separate from Him. He said, He was in the father, and the father in Him.

People make stuff up all the time. Stick with the Bible, it's just easier. I assume you're talking about John 14 there in your last reference. Jesus says,

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

What you fail to make not of, though, is He also says He'd be in us. Does that make you and me... God? Of course not, so you missed the point a little, I reckon.

Let me ask you something, have you ever played with a child? When you play with kids as an adult, whatever you do, you are going to win, fairly easily at that. Like playing tag, or wrestling, or playing a board game. But to make it real and fun for the child, you limit yourself for their well being.

In order to serve the role perfectly, Christ had to be limited in capacity. And He actually admits this in Matthew 24 when He says no one but the Father knows the hour of the second coming of the Christ. Now that Christ is in heaven and no longer in His mortal shell, He knows the hour too I'm sure since He's with the Father.

Consider Philippians 2:5-8

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

You are right to say Christ and the Father are One, because they are One. Jesus came as a man, a servant, to save humanity. God does the job right, though, and did what was necessary to make it meaningful and perfect. In this case, I do believe that meant to limited in capacity in order to live the life of a man. Otherwise, the fact He was totally sinless would have no meaning, and thus the sacrifice wouldn't be sufficient.

If you are a believer, this isn't something to joke about. I mean, I think God does have a sense of humor (there's a season for everything), but in doing what you did above, you would lead others astray, and you know what He says about causing children to stumble? Millstone!

Blessings.

 

[Etritonakin]

Perhaps you should read Philippians 2:6-8.

Perhaps you should read verses 8-11

To whom was Christ obedient? Himself? No. The Father.

Did he exalt himself? No. He humbled himself and the Father exalted him.

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Also -here we have Christ saying that the will of the Father should be done -even though his own will was different......

Who is he praying to -himself? No. The Father. Whose will should be done rather than his own? His own? No. The Father's.

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

He didn't say... nevertheless not as I will, but as I will -because he was taking to someone else.

 

[Desert Snake]

People make stuff up all the time. Stick with the Bible, it's just easier. I assume you're talking about John 14 there in your last reference. Jesus says,

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

What you fail to make not of, though, is He also says He'd be in us. Does that make you and me... God? Of course not, so you missed the point a little, I reckon.

No, it doesn't make us God, it means that Jesus is 'in' us as well, but notice Jesus doesn't say He is exactly the same as us. He makes a differentiation between the 'father, Himself, and us. Yet He, 'Jesus' is in us. It's only confusing when we are making these arbitrary 'separations' between the father and Eshu.
He isn't saying we can know the father without Him! That's the whole point, we know the father through Him, not because we are 'like' Eshu, and He's making a metaphorical poem.

In order to serve the role perfectly, Christ had to be limited in capacity. And He actually admits this in Matthew 24 when He says no one but the Father knows the hour of the second coming of the Christ. Now that Christ is in heaven and no longer in His mortal shell, He knows the hour too I'm sure since He's with the Father.

Ok. The thing is, the 'limitation' here is not the same way we are limited. Jesus was made like us, but His person is different in that He is not all, /just/, man. He is Deific.

Consider Philippians 2:5-8

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

You are right to say Christ and the Father are One, because they are One. Jesus came as a man, a servant, to save humanity. God does the job right, though, and did what was necessary to make it meaningful and perfect. In this case, I do believe that meant to limited in capacity in order to live the life of a man. Otherwise, the fact He was totally sinless would have no meaning, and thus the sacrifice wouldn't be sufficient.

I'm not sure what the inference here is. Jesus, /Eshu is a man, yes, however in Spirit form He is actually Deity. Eshu in man form was not an automaton working for the 'father', like a puppet. That's sort of bizzare to be honest.

If you are a believer, this isn't something to joke about. I mean, I think God does have a sense of humor (there's a season for everything), but in doing what you did above, you would lead others astray, and you know what He says about causing children to stumble? Millstone!

Blessings.

The 'other side' of this argument is that if Jesus isn't Deific, his words make no sense.