SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
It is? Why?
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If the Big Bang was proved false what alternatives would evolutionist have?
- Thread starter Sculelos
- Start date
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
Given I do not accept the premise of inherent 'meaning' or 'purpose', your assertion is one I simply can not understand.
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." Umberto Eco
As for what would scientists have if the big bang were proved incorrect, why that would depend on what was found that contradicts the theory, a new model of accounting for all previously identified phenomena would then need to be devised. It is quite possible to do, but would be substantially altered depending on what phenomena was identified as contradicting the Big bang model of understanding the formation of the universe - (AFAIK) there is currently no identified phenomenon which is inconsistent with the big bang model so I am not sure that a substantive answer to the proposition in the OP could be given.
"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth." Umberto Eco
As for what would scientists have if the big bang were proved incorrect, why that would depend on what was found that contradicts the theory, a new model of accounting for all previously identified phenomena would then need to be devised. It is quite possible to do, but would be substantially altered depending on what phenomena was identified as contradicting the Big bang model of understanding the formation of the universe - (AFAIK) there is currently no identified phenomenon which is inconsistent with the big bang model so I am not sure that a substantive answer to the proposition in the OP could be given.
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RedJamaX
Active Member
Based on the topic... why did the discussion get past this??
voice crying
Member
The structure of science may be sound but often fact is merged with speculation. Fact must be separated from speculation. The Big Bang(BB) can never be proved&Evolution(Ev)isn't true.
God(only a spirit can exist in nothing-undetected&only a spirit can occupy true infinity=360deg-anything that can be measured has finite properties, a beginning&an end)SPOKE all in2 existence=no BB/Ev but ppl CONFUSE TRUTH(offends many)&HATE &/or impose human limits&labels 2 God's abilities=dumb limits. Science has PERMANENT limits:
Cause for the universe, expansion&contract claims CAN'T Prove if propulsion&cause are due to forces: outside the universe, the BB or its collapse(we CAN'T get outside it all to do CLEAN tests=QM fluctuation, CMBR, anti-dark matter&energy calculations CAN'T Be proved).
Perpetual regression double-talk(think 1800s perpetual motion scams)omits theres a 1st cause no matter the number of universes &/or dimensions one claims exists. To create singularity&the universe uses energy(work). (Un)used energy (ie gamma&x-ray radiation) escapes usage &/or leaks out[no barrier], thus perpetual universe regression is impossible. As more of the universe is consumed[doubt 100% can b]the less energy there is to use-we can't get something for nothing.
To make singularity(tiny blob with 1 property whatever that may be)for our"whole"universe, it would have required the universe to be entirely ANNIHILATED(there would be nothing left to act or react for any cause, let alone a BB). Like the required increase in energy to turn over a large motor it would take much greater energy to"cause"the universe than what is present in our universe.
Even if there was something in the blob that could act as fuel, the sheer strength of gravity at the center of the blob would be so powerful you can't get a detonator even close enough w/o it also being annihilated. The detonator would have to penetrate to the blob's center to get the desired effect(the BB)but the trouble is even if 1 got very close, even if it fired it would b akin to putting a match in water as you lit it-it would not do much more than vibrate the blob=no BB.
Ppl confuse fact&speculation(i.e. call Ev whats only adaptation). The scientific-method cant prove the BB. BBnc, Ev, Abiogenesis theories-billions of yrs old COLD cases&we DIDNT SEE it done. W/o UNCUT film starting from before the BB&life to today=speculation. 1 species' parts in another=just more species. Also, life only comes from life.
Side note: [Stars seen at 13.7billion Lt yrs away=3 things: 1. You see it as it was 13.7billion yrs ago; 2. If it blew up today you wont know it for 13.7billion yrs; 3. Its an illusion as you can't know what happened to that star since 13.7billion yrs ago. At 1,000,000mph it takes 24,000,000+ earth yrs[nearest star=2850 earth yrs]just to reach our galaxy center-33,000+Lt yrs away. You get to a speed like over-driving your car lights=you can't see or avoid pebbles. This can end your trip. Also parts(even replacement parts)wear out long before you could reach your destination.]
Ev Creation processes=a blind man building a car he's never heard of, seen, touched, heard or rode in-it can't be done w/o 1st teaching him about car functions&parts assembly for it 2 work. Cells have same limits.
Ev's a lie/calls in2 ? BB/Abiog&w/o an IDr the universe&we wouldn't be here:
*1. We have 2 lungs, kidneys, ears, arms&legs-each has NEAR PERFECT 3D MIRROR-IMAGE companion organs/limbs(NOT A COPY). IT CAN'T B EXPLAIN AWAY. To make mirror-image organs takes FULL REVERSE ENGINEERING, knowledge of companion's functions&purpose or it can't be created to perfection in nature=2 WITNESSES in nature=KILLS Ev/Abiog).
2. Our bodies are highly symmetrical 1 side to the other-impossible w/o an outside overview POV for full knowledge of the whole life-form.
3. Cells/organisms are just copies of, copy parents'&all ancestors' acts. You won't find a bird building a better nest than parents/chicks build even better nests/bears passing better life to cubs. Cells have 2 LIVES-1 copying parents/1 SECRET-working on changes or the Creator is God.
4. The fossil record doesn't have millions of trial/error phyla that should exist if NatS/fittest survivor is Creation source. Odds are so great against near perfection for many millions of greatly diverse species, such precision cant happen w/o 1st having full knowledge for what to do(even adding billions of yrs beyond start of the universe can't solve the probem). If not true millions more misfits with mistakes, having only 1/3 eyes in odd places, 1 leg growing out of a head, where a fin, arm, wing should be, etc would exist than perfection seen in nature.
5. Picture u boxed(+near 0 intelligence)within microscopic cell-smaller than a text period&no way to sense much beyond your cell=real limits so how can you invent millions of such diverse species to perfection found in nature? NO OTHER ORGANISMS EXISTED so cells are great geniuses or Ev's a lie.
6. Cells need DNA to function. DNA's useless w/o a cell so which came 1st a cell or DNA? DNA's very complex(esp for higher life-forms)so odds against figuring out&using DNA(in correct sequences/related processes)is many magnitudes higher than for pc program code. Its useless w/o an IDr to identify/assign its proper order. Give apes books, they cant learn from whats written w/o intelligence. DNA's COMMON to ALL LIFE-98% of another species' DNA doesnt=Ev.
7. Look at ID, knowledge, time&energy used to create&improve(many mistakes made)airplanes. If ppl didn't"learn"what to do we'd still be grounded.
8. Creation's astronomically more complex than airplanes. More complex an organism is it multiplies ID&knowledge needed to create it. Creation source is God or it couldn't exist let alone evolve(adaptation not Ev is built in for survival).
9. Earth has the best orbit, gravity, axis, spin, atmosphere, magnetic field, water&the moon has the right size&orbit for tidal cycles&many foods taste good for life. Just 1 or 2 small differences for orbits&environments&most likely life would be different, higher life-forms die in short time if it survived.
On the other hand, God's Creation order isn't as man thinks: Plants were made before the sun(only true believers wil know why); the 24hr day was not made till day 4(for sure God didn't rest from Creation for only 24hrs)&the Bible doesn't say earth's age&the ww flood took place: To separate the continents great distances it would require huge water pressure btwn&below them-Gen6. Tectonic plate movement, continental drift, volcanoes &/or earthquakes etc. would cause greater tearing&splitting in their land mass.
Only 1 God can occupy infinity=God of Israel=only position NO CAUSE needed can exist&you can declare the end from the beginning=the Bible=no other legit gods can exist. Its only fully proved b/c Jesus is God's Son&He wasn't talking out 2nor1000s of sides of His mouth=no confusion.
Jesus couldn't do whats in NT w/o knowing the entire OT(impossible w/o God&the NT didn't exist yet). The Apostles couldn't write the NT w/o Jesus having them remember all He did-Lk 24:25-27,45.
God outsmarted us: reading the Bible(religious or not)u cant find nor rightly know Jesus&the Bible w/o His directions-Jn 5:39/10:1,7/3:3,5(Jn 14:6/2Cr3:14/Is 29:11-12=Jewish ppl cant unveil OT w/o Jesus=all gentiles can't=its why many interpretations exist&its called fiction).
Its why religion&spirit of don't=the truth as most are built on ideas man likes=they CANT ALL BE RIGHT(only 1 Bible-why so many interpretations? 2Pt1:19-21=can't teach what u don't know). Who knows more about a house-the Builder or ppl moving in later?
God knew many would twist His word so He used an unchangeable system-like God&Jesus-Prv 30:4-6. God's 66 legit Bible Books, mindset&message forever binds OT/NT truth 2 His system.
If Jesus is God's Son: the Quran/islam(contradicts Bible); LDS/BoM/mormon(no another testament); JWs(twisted NWT/Watchtower/Awake)/Oc-RCc-Cc/many Protestants/SDA/moonies/Chr Scientists/Scientology, Buddhist/Hindus others r wrong on Jesus-they demote Jesus to a prophet or good man, 1 way/another. If He isnt God's Son(false teacher)the Bible&all named above are wrong=false teachers. We can't have it to ways: 1 Jesus=only 1 true Gospel=2Cor11:4.
God(only a spirit can exist in nothing-undetected&only a spirit can occupy true infinity=360deg-anything that can be measured has finite properties, a beginning&an end)SPOKE all in2 existence=no BB/Ev but ppl CONFUSE TRUTH(offends many)&HATE &/or impose human limits&labels 2 God's abilities=dumb limits. Science has PERMANENT limits:
Cause for the universe, expansion&contract claims CAN'T Prove if propulsion&cause are due to forces: outside the universe, the BB or its collapse(we CAN'T get outside it all to do CLEAN tests=QM fluctuation, CMBR, anti-dark matter&energy calculations CAN'T Be proved).
Perpetual regression double-talk(think 1800s perpetual motion scams)omits theres a 1st cause no matter the number of universes &/or dimensions one claims exists. To create singularity&the universe uses energy(work). (Un)used energy (ie gamma&x-ray radiation) escapes usage &/or leaks out[no barrier], thus perpetual universe regression is impossible. As more of the universe is consumed[doubt 100% can b]the less energy there is to use-we can't get something for nothing.
To make singularity(tiny blob with 1 property whatever that may be)for our"whole"universe, it would have required the universe to be entirely ANNIHILATED(there would be nothing left to act or react for any cause, let alone a BB). Like the required increase in energy to turn over a large motor it would take much greater energy to"cause"the universe than what is present in our universe.
Even if there was something in the blob that could act as fuel, the sheer strength of gravity at the center of the blob would be so powerful you can't get a detonator even close enough w/o it also being annihilated. The detonator would have to penetrate to the blob's center to get the desired effect(the BB)but the trouble is even if 1 got very close, even if it fired it would b akin to putting a match in water as you lit it-it would not do much more than vibrate the blob=no BB.
Ppl confuse fact&speculation(i.e. call Ev whats only adaptation). The scientific-method cant prove the BB. BBnc, Ev, Abiogenesis theories-billions of yrs old COLD cases&we DIDNT SEE it done. W/o UNCUT film starting from before the BB&life to today=speculation. 1 species' parts in another=just more species. Also, life only comes from life.
Side note: [Stars seen at 13.7billion Lt yrs away=3 things: 1. You see it as it was 13.7billion yrs ago; 2. If it blew up today you wont know it for 13.7billion yrs; 3. Its an illusion as you can't know what happened to that star since 13.7billion yrs ago. At 1,000,000mph it takes 24,000,000+ earth yrs[nearest star=2850 earth yrs]just to reach our galaxy center-33,000+Lt yrs away. You get to a speed like over-driving your car lights=you can't see or avoid pebbles. This can end your trip. Also parts(even replacement parts)wear out long before you could reach your destination.]
Ev Creation processes=a blind man building a car he's never heard of, seen, touched, heard or rode in-it can't be done w/o 1st teaching him about car functions&parts assembly for it 2 work. Cells have same limits.
Ev's a lie/calls in2 ? BB/Abiog&w/o an IDr the universe&we wouldn't be here:
*1. We have 2 lungs, kidneys, ears, arms&legs-each has NEAR PERFECT 3D MIRROR-IMAGE companion organs/limbs(NOT A COPY). IT CAN'T B EXPLAIN AWAY. To make mirror-image organs takes FULL REVERSE ENGINEERING, knowledge of companion's functions&purpose or it can't be created to perfection in nature=2 WITNESSES in nature=KILLS Ev/Abiog).
2. Our bodies are highly symmetrical 1 side to the other-impossible w/o an outside overview POV for full knowledge of the whole life-form.
3. Cells/organisms are just copies of, copy parents'&all ancestors' acts. You won't find a bird building a better nest than parents/chicks build even better nests/bears passing better life to cubs. Cells have 2 LIVES-1 copying parents/1 SECRET-working on changes or the Creator is God.
4. The fossil record doesn't have millions of trial/error phyla that should exist if NatS/fittest survivor is Creation source. Odds are so great against near perfection for many millions of greatly diverse species, such precision cant happen w/o 1st having full knowledge for what to do(even adding billions of yrs beyond start of the universe can't solve the probem). If not true millions more misfits with mistakes, having only 1/3 eyes in odd places, 1 leg growing out of a head, where a fin, arm, wing should be, etc would exist than perfection seen in nature.
5. Picture u boxed(+near 0 intelligence)within microscopic cell-smaller than a text period&no way to sense much beyond your cell=real limits so how can you invent millions of such diverse species to perfection found in nature? NO OTHER ORGANISMS EXISTED so cells are great geniuses or Ev's a lie.
6. Cells need DNA to function. DNA's useless w/o a cell so which came 1st a cell or DNA? DNA's very complex(esp for higher life-forms)so odds against figuring out&using DNA(in correct sequences/related processes)is many magnitudes higher than for pc program code. Its useless w/o an IDr to identify/assign its proper order. Give apes books, they cant learn from whats written w/o intelligence. DNA's COMMON to ALL LIFE-98% of another species' DNA doesnt=Ev.
7. Look at ID, knowledge, time&energy used to create&improve(many mistakes made)airplanes. If ppl didn't"learn"what to do we'd still be grounded.
8. Creation's astronomically more complex than airplanes. More complex an organism is it multiplies ID&knowledge needed to create it. Creation source is God or it couldn't exist let alone evolve(adaptation not Ev is built in for survival).
9. Earth has the best orbit, gravity, axis, spin, atmosphere, magnetic field, water&the moon has the right size&orbit for tidal cycles&many foods taste good for life. Just 1 or 2 small differences for orbits&environments&most likely life would be different, higher life-forms die in short time if it survived.
On the other hand, God's Creation order isn't as man thinks: Plants were made before the sun(only true believers wil know why); the 24hr day was not made till day 4(for sure God didn't rest from Creation for only 24hrs)&the Bible doesn't say earth's age&the ww flood took place: To separate the continents great distances it would require huge water pressure btwn&below them-Gen6. Tectonic plate movement, continental drift, volcanoes &/or earthquakes etc. would cause greater tearing&splitting in their land mass.
Only 1 God can occupy infinity=God of Israel=only position NO CAUSE needed can exist&you can declare the end from the beginning=the Bible=no other legit gods can exist. Its only fully proved b/c Jesus is God's Son&He wasn't talking out 2nor1000s of sides of His mouth=no confusion.
Jesus couldn't do whats in NT w/o knowing the entire OT(impossible w/o God&the NT didn't exist yet). The Apostles couldn't write the NT w/o Jesus having them remember all He did-Lk 24:25-27,45.
God outsmarted us: reading the Bible(religious or not)u cant find nor rightly know Jesus&the Bible w/o His directions-Jn 5:39/10:1,7/3:3,5(Jn 14:6/2Cr3:14/Is 29:11-12=Jewish ppl cant unveil OT w/o Jesus=all gentiles can't=its why many interpretations exist&its called fiction).
Its why religion&spirit of don't=the truth as most are built on ideas man likes=they CANT ALL BE RIGHT(only 1 Bible-why so many interpretations? 2Pt1:19-21=can't teach what u don't know). Who knows more about a house-the Builder or ppl moving in later?
God knew many would twist His word so He used an unchangeable system-like God&Jesus-Prv 30:4-6. God's 66 legit Bible Books, mindset&message forever binds OT/NT truth 2 His system.
If Jesus is God's Son: the Quran/islam(contradicts Bible); LDS/BoM/mormon(no another testament); JWs(twisted NWT/Watchtower/Awake)/Oc-RCc-Cc/many Protestants/SDA/moonies/Chr Scientists/Scientology, Buddhist/Hindus others r wrong on Jesus-they demote Jesus to a prophet or good man, 1 way/another. If He isnt God's Son(false teacher)the Bible&all named above are wrong=false teachers. We can't have it to ways: 1 Jesus=only 1 true Gospel=2Cor11:4.
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johnhanks
Well-Known Member
This. Very much this.
I love the way you state "Fact must be separated from speculation." and then go on to vomit a tirade of unevidenced rubbish as though it was fact. An unkind person might consider that maybe a touch hypocritical.
There is so much wrong with what you've posted, showing such a deep lack of understanding, it's hard to know where to start. Would you try to understand if I tried to explain?
RedJamaX
Active Member
You just spouted out a lot of; arguments from ignorance; uninformed claims; positive claims about things that are actually unknown and only hypothesized; and scripture...
None of what you said holds any ground toward saying that the BigBang Theory is false.
Looncall
Well-Known Member
Quite right. He/she did nicely demonstrate the pernicious effect of religion on the human intellect, however.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Specifically which?...the mystery of Man having no God?
Or the default of disbelief?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
If you lay all of science to experiment...there will be no scientific result proving God.
There won't be a photo, fingerprint, equation or lab result.
Science can be of thought.
Some exercises can only be done in that way.
How's your logic?
McBell
Unbound
If that post was clarified, I would really hate to see the original post....
My logic is fine. I'm just confused by your argument. There are other evidences apart from scientific. But you are not offering scientific evidence of God. If you're not looking to, then all is good. I'm honestly confused what you are arguing at this point.
tomteapack
tomteapack
The idea that a theory about the origins of the univetse
tomteapack
tomteapack
The idea that a theory about the origins of the universe has any connection to to the facts supporting evolution is sad, silly and shows typical religious bias and hatred.
JerryL
Well-Known Member
Evolution. The option they would have is "evolution".
ScottySatan
Well-Known Member
I could have a banana or a human? Normally I'd take you up on a human, but if it must be a clone of me, I'd prefer the banana. With 99% DNA sequence identity, I can probably start a family with it.
gnostic
The Lost One
Hence, this is why your god, your miracles, your religion/faith, your bible and your brand of creationism are "unfalsifiable", hence "not scientific". They are all a matter of personal belief or personal opinion, and a heavy dose unsubstantiated wishful thinking.
You rather based your life on myth (Genesis' creationism), which was also based older myths, demonstrated your bias and lack of understanding (or your ignorance) on matter of science and towards empirical evidences.
In the past, you keep talking of how you believe in science and in cause-and-effect, but you actually don't believe in either, because you rather based on so-called "knowledge", on preconceptions (faith & belief) of the supernatural than on empirical and verifiable evidences of the naturals.
You may call yourself a "rogue" theologian, but you still allowed your biased blind faith dictate what you accept or don't accept as science. Your brand cause-and-effect is no different from the time when Christians were still burning witches and heretics, or still think the Earth is flat - that is fear, ignorance and superstitions.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
At some 'point' science cannot continue.
THEN reason takes over.
Science will take you TO that 'point' of decision where the experimentation cannot be applied.
At that 'point' you have to make the choice.
Spirit first?...or substance?
The rest of your belief unfolds from there.
I suspect consequence for choosing one and not the other.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
See previous post.