If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

[Dawnofhope]

Adam was technically created but most likely that means he was cloned and done by technology not a miracle so it can't be nearly as great as God performing a miracle in the womb of Mary.

I appreciate you are sincere in your Faith. My point was that the reality of Christ as expressed through the Gospel's account of the virgin birth is to inspire the faithful and to portray His greatness. However its impossible to rationally prove to someone who does believe that it happened or it didn't. I'm not sure you understand that. I find the above comment very strange. Is that your humour or do you really believe it? Would you elaborate please?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Very simple.

Priests, kings, and prophets were all anointed. There was an anointing of oil for priests and kings (recipe since lost), and an anointing of Spirit for prophets.

I was thinking about the Persian King Cyrus a Zoroastrian who issued the decree to rebuild the Jewish temple.

"That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." Isaiah 44:28

"Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:" Isaiah 45:1-2

 

[Tumah]

Never is a strong word. How about these verses from Isaiah. Should we interpret them literally?

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.…" Isaiah 11:6-9

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Isaiah 13:9-10

It may be a strong word, but it is the correct one. There is a difference between the 'plain meaning' of the verse and the 'literal meaning' of it. The plain meaning of a passage may be metaphorical if the literal meaning is not a logical interpretation.

Incidentally, there are Jewish commentaries that mention that animals' predatory nature and lack of fear of man is a result of man's sin and not their natural state. So during the messianic era when there are no more sins and sinners the cow and the bear et al will graze.

 

[Tumah]

No where in Jewish scripture does it say there is only one anointed, nor does it say there is only one anointing. But, it does say that there will be many proxies, or mediators:


Daniel 12:3

And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever.

I don't see anything in that verse or passage that warrants the words "proxies" or "mediators". Why do you think it does?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have not proposed such a civilization. I wouldn't mind a theocratic civilization for Jews at least to some degree. The only theocratic civilization that I would really encourage though is the one that will be led by the Messiah. For non-Jews a society built around the Noahide Laws would be ideal, but ultimately not really my concern.

Thank you. Do you think these verses from Isaiah 2:1-6 along with Isaiah 11:6-9 quoted above and Isaiah 9: 6-7 relate to that future civilisation? It appears to be a vision of world peace based on the New Covenant,

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this."

What do you think the different animals represent here?
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."

 

[Tumah]

Thank you. Do you think these verses from Isaiah 2:1-6 along with Isaiah 11:6-9 quoted above and Isaiah 9: 6-7 relate to that future civilisation? It appears to be a vision of world peace based on the New Covenant,

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this."

Besides for Isaiah 9 which is a prophecy about Hezekiah, the other two passages you quote do appear to be speaking about the Messianic Age.
I don't understand why you call this world peace "based on the New Covenant". I don't see anything here that relates to it at all.

What do you think the different animals represent here?
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."

I think they're just metaphors for the degree of peace that will be present.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I was thinking about the Persian King Cyrus a Zoroastrian who issued the decree to rebuild the Jewish temple.

There's actually no historical evidence that Cyrus the Great was a Zoroastrian. In fact the Cyrus Cylinder indicates the opposite - that Cyrus was a polytheist.

I made a post about this a while ago. Here it is.

It's important to remember that the account of Cyrus setting the Jews free was written by Jews, for Jews, so it will be written through the lens of Jewish culture. If it had been the Greeks writing they'd have more than likely said that Cyrus was told something similar by Zeus.



Actually he probably wasn't a Zoroastrian because he recognises the existence of multiple deities and the validity of their cults. The Cyrus cylinder accredits him saying:

"I am Cyrus, king of the world, great king, mighty king, king of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four quarters, the son of Cambyses, great king, king of Anšan, grandson of Cyrus, great king, king of Anšan, descendant of Teispes, great king, king of Anšan, of an eternal line of kingship, whose rule Bêl and Nabu love, whose kingship they desire for their hearts' pleasure. When I entered Babylon in a peaceful manner, I took up my lordly abode in the royal palace amidst rejoicing and happiness. Marduk, the great lord, established as his fate for me a magnanimous heart of one who loves Babylon, and I daily attended to his worship.

"From [Babylon] to Aššur and (from) Susa, Agade, Ešnunna, Zamban, Me-Turnu, Der, as far as the region of Gutium, the sacred centers on the other side of the Tigris, whose sanctuaries had been abandoned for a long time, I returned the images of the gods, who had resided there, to their places and I let them dwell in eternal abodes. I gathered all their inhabitants and returned to them their dwellings. In addition, at the command of Marduk, the great lord, I settled in their habitations, in pleasing abodes, the gods of Sumer and Akkad, whom Nabonidus, to the anger of the lord of the gods, had brought into Babylon."

"May all the gods whom I settled in their sacred centers ask daily of Bêl and Nâbu that my days be long and may they intercede for my welfare. … The people of Babylon blessed my kingship, and I settled all the lands in peaceful abodes."

All of those are from the Cyrus cylinder (translation can be found here The Cyrus Cylinder )

So from the looks of things, Cyrus kept faith with some of the old gods of the Persian Empire and conquered peoples - specifically Marduk, and possibly Bel and Nabu as well.

 

[Akivah]

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

You are using an incorrect translation from a Christian bible. The correct English translation of I s a 9:5 from the Tanakh is actually "For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

 

[Sleeppy]

I don't see anything in that verse or passage that warrants the words "proxies" or "mediators". Why do you think it does?

Teachers are mediators.

 

[roger1440]

Teachers are mediators.

How is a person to know if a so called teacher isn’t just your garden variety nut case? One guy knocks on my door and tells me a story about a Jewish dude born of a virgin, the next guy tell me a story about Martians. What am I to do?

 

[Dawnofhope]

You are using an incorrect translation from a Christian bible. The correct English translation of I s a 9:5 from the Tanakh is actually "For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

Great. So whats you understanding of it?

Btw, have you even wondered what would happen if a star fell to earth?

Whats your understanding of the talking serpent in Genesis 3. Should we take that literally?

 

[psychoslice]

This whole idea of a Messiah is childish, for Christ sake get over it, and wake up to your selves.

 

[Beth Stitely]

In order to understand the Gospels it is necessary to read them from a first century Jewish perspective. These Gospels were written by Jews, for Jews

Luke was a Gentile

 

[Sleeppy]

How is a person to know if a so called teacher isn’t just your garden variety nut case? One guy knocks on my door and tells me a story about a Jewish dude born of a virgin, the next guy tell me a story about Martians. What am I to do?

It doesn't matter who or what comes to you. You eat of the tree of knowledge. Trial and error precede wisdom.

 

[Beth Stitely]

Jesus was The Christ and The Christ who returns will have the same Spirit but not physical body....besides how would we recognise Him anyhow if He did have the same physical body. It doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

Jesus still carries the scars of his crucifixion. (John 20:27) The Jews will recognise him when He returns. (Zech 12:10)

 

[Beth Stitely]

Jesus clearly hasn't. If Jesus fulfilled the prophecy, where are all the Jews singing Jesus' praises?[/QUOTE]
Read Romans 9

 

[Tumah]

@Beth Stitely your comments will work better if you stop deleting the part that causes your response to alert the person you are responding to.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Depending on situation and the nature of the illness you're curing. From what I understand that's a fairly complicated set of Laws although in general, yes a Jew is permitted to practice a degree of medicine (especially when it comes to suspicions of life-or-death situations). I'm not competent in those Laws to be able to give you an outline of the exact parameters.

If there is uncertainty for even one as learned in such matters as yourself, does it not put some doubt in the mind of the practitioner. What of it is just a broken arm with agonising pain but not immediately life threatening. Do I wait until the Sabbath is over to treat him or provide relief for his pain?

 

[Beth Stitely]

@Beth Stitely your comments will work better if you stop deleting the part that causes your response to alert the person you are responding to.

OK...like this?

 

[Tumah]

If there is uncertainty for even one as learned in such matters as yourself, does it not put some doubt in the mind of the practitioner. What of it is just a broken arm with agonising pain but not immediately life threatening. Do I wait until the Sabbath is over to treat him or provide relief for his pain?

I am by no standard considered learned in my sect.
You study the laws as you study medicine like a normal person. It would be pretty foolish to have gone through medical school and the night before starting residency to wake up and realize you know absolutely nothing about what you can and can't do.
I'm not a doctor and I have not studied medical Halacha. It would be irresponsible of me to answer such a question. But I'm sure when a doctor decides to convert its not that difficult to ask the presiding court for a simple primer in how to proceed until a stronger foundation could be learned.