If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

[Tumah]

OK...like this?

That's right. Add your comment at the end after the [/quote] part.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Jesus was The Christ and The Christ who returns will have the same Spirit but not physical body....besides how would we recognise Him anyhow if He did have the same physical body. It doesn't make sense.

Beth posted:
Jesus still carries the scars of his crucifixion. (John 20:27) The Jews will recognise him when He returns. (Zech 12:10)[/QUOTE]

So a man appears with scars or wounds on his wrists and legs. He claims to be Jesus The Christ, the Jewish Messiah, that was crucified by his own people 2,000 years ago. Why would the Jews want to converse with such a man let alone accept him as their Messiah?

 

[Dawnofhope]

There's actually no historical evidence that Cyrus the Great was a Zoroastrian. In fact the Cyrus Cylinder indicates the opposite - that Cyrus was a polytheist.

I made a post about this a while ago. Here it is.

Thank you for pointing that out. On reviewing literature I can see that the latter Persian Kings were Zoroastrian but it is unclear and debatable to the religion of the earlier ones including Cyrus the Great. Clearly some scholars think he might of been but the evidence would be circumstantial at best.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Thank you for pointing that out. On reviewing literature I can see that the latter Persian Kings were Zoroastrian but it is unclear and debatable to the religion of the earlier ones including Cyrus the Great. Clearly some scholars think he might of been but the evidence would be circumstantial at best.

I think the claim that Cyrus is a Zoroastrian may have arisen out of the desire for there to be a tangible connection between Zoroastrianism & Judaism - but it's much more likely that people only think Cyrus was a Zoroastrian because of the way the verse is worded in reference to the Jewish god.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think the claim that Cyrus is a Zoroastrian may have arisen out of the desire for there to be a tangible connection between Zoroastrianism & Judaism - but it's much more likely that people only think Cyrus was a Zoroastrian because of the way the verse is worded in reference to the Jewish god.

I had thought of Zoroastrianism as being an independent religion rather than derived from Judaism. Although both monotheistic one may have been more embracing of different cultures which the Persians clearly were. However there's always political motivation...

Cyrus from what we know of him seems to have had a largely positive influence and I had wondered if that was inspired by his faith.

 

[roger1440]

It doesn't matter who or what comes to you. You eat of the tree of knowledge. Trial and error precede wisdom.

I have no idea what you mean.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I had thought of Zoroastrianism as being an independent religion rather than derived from Judaism.

No, no, that's not what I meant. The two are distinct & separate religions with neither emerging from the other. I was referring to the fact that the two have mixed in the past - notably when Darius conquered Babylon and the Persian Empire expanded to cover the Levant. Some believe this had an influence on Second Temple Judaism.

Cyrus from what we know of him seems to have had a largely positive influence and I had wondered if that was inspired by his faith.

It was probably more to do with the Israelite contact with another culture which had an emergent monotheist religion gaining influence. The fact the two faiths seemed to see eye-to-eye on a lot of things, along with Persian tolerance of foreign cultures, would have helped too

 

[rosends]

There are all sorts of resources regarding medicine and the Sabbath online. The best option is to sit with an expert and review the pertinent sources inside and establish a way to resolve questions as they arise, but in the meanwhile, one can start with a site like this.

 

[Sleeppy]

I have no idea what you mean.

God is no respecter of persons, contrary to what Moses', Jesus', and others' narratives imply.

In other words, everyone and everything serves as a teacher to you. From the least to the greatest, they all know, according to Adam's prescribed method of trial and error.

 

[roger1440]

Beth, what makes you think Luke was a Gentile?

 

[Dawnofhope]

There are all sorts of resources regarding medicine and the Sabbath online. The best option is to sit with an expert and review the pertinent sources inside and establish a way to resolve questions as they arise, but in the meanwhile, one can start with a site like this.

Thank you. That provides an excellent overview of how Mosaic law would be applied to the art of medicine within a theocracy based on the Torah.

As I study the Torah it becomes clear that had the Hebrew people not violated the Covenant of their Lord there was great potential in these Laws of God. However as you appreciate there is a very real question as to whether the application of such laws in a modern setting would be acceptable to many Jews let alone those who are not.

Another concern would that once a Covenant is broken, can it be restored with all the original laws? 2,500 years on a renewal with a new set of laws applicable to the modern age appears more likely.

It all come back to our understanding of Jeremiah 31:31-34
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I appreciate the thoughtfulness and entertaining wit that adherents of Judaism have taken in exploring these weighty issues with me.

 

[Ben Avraham]

If the Jewish Messiah has already come why hasn’t he made himself known? If the Messiah has made himself known, please explain how. Nowhere in Jewish or Christian scripture does it say he will be known by proxy. What I mean by “proxy” is one who speaks for another.

The concept of a coming Messiah got its meaning when every time Israel fell to another nation, and only the high class was taken into exile while the peasants would stay behind in the Land and would pray daily for the return of the Messiah aka Israel. Now, for a proof of the collective concept of Messiah, you might want to read Habakkuk 3:13. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One, aka Israel the Messiah if you read Exodus 4:22,23.

 

[rosends]

However as you appreciate there is a very real question as to whether the application of such laws in a modern setting would be acceptable to many Jews let alone those who are not.

Two points: first, why would the application be unacceptable to any Jews? The sources out there are specifically the application as acceptable to Jews. Second, why does it matter if any application is unacceptable to non-Jews?

Another concern would that once a Covenant is broken, can it be restored with all the original laws? 2,500 years on a renewal with a new set of laws applicable to the modern age appears more likely.

Except that textually, it is the original laws. Jer. 31:32 says explicitly that what will be inscribed on the heart is "Torati" my Torah. For more on this, check Lev 26:44-46, and Deut 32:46. The Torah laws are eternal. The covenant that will be renewed is Israel's abiding by those laws, not a new set of laws.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Two points: first, why would the application be unacceptable to any Jews? The sources out there are specifically the application as acceptable to Jews. Second, why does it matter if any application is unacceptable to non-Jews?

It might be unacceptable to Jews because:
(1) the world is a very different place to what it was when Moses revealed these laws. The degree of education and interconnectedness between all peoples in the world is entirely different;
(2) we have experience of different forms of government and I know democracy is attractive to many people including Jews;
(3) We have had experience with theocracies and generally they are not well regarded. I know many Jews are concerned about the establishment of a Jewish theocracy and what that might look like.

It might be unacceptable to non-Jews for all the above reasons. Increasing humanity is seeing ourselves as one people and respecting the need for international law.

Except that textually, it is the original laws. Jer. 31:32 says explicitly that what will be inscribed on the heart is "Torati" my Torah.

I'm still struggling to understand what that means to you.

The covenant that will be renewed is Israel's abiding by those laws, not a new set of laws.

That's the central issue I'm investigating. Thank you again for taking the time to thoughtfully engage in discussion on this extremely important matter.

 

[Akivah]

Great. So whats you understanding of it?

I s a I a h 9:56 is not a messianic prophecy according to the Jewish perspective. The correct context of this passage is that it describes events that had already taken place in Jewish history, namely, the birth and naming of this particular child (believed to be Hezekiah, the son of King Ahaz), and a prophecy concerning his future mission (which was fulfilled). Hezekiah's role was to lift Judah from the degenerate conditions into which it had sunk, and to lead the indestructible faithful "Remnant of Israel". According to one interpretation, this passage speaks of the wonders performed by G-d for Hezekiah as King of Judah, and in it, the Prophet expresses his praise of G-d for sparing Hezekiah and his kingdom from demise at the hands of Sanheriv and his army, who besieged Jerusalem.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I s a I a h 9:56 is not a messianic prophecy according to the Jewish perspective.

Thank you.

Have you considered my question as to whether the stars falling to heaven in Isaiah, or the Serpent in Genesis 3 is literal or metaphorical?

 

[whirlingmerc]

The Messiah makes himself known progressively. He is the shoot from the stump in Isaiah it grows and fills the earth. Not an all at once thing.

 

[Akivah]

Thank you.

Have you considered my question as to whether the stars falling to heaven in Isaiah, or the Serpent in Genesis 3 is literal or metaphorical?

No I haven't. You need to acknowledge your error with the first reference before you start moving the goal posts and throwing in verses ad nauseum.

Besides, @Tumah

 

[Akivah]

Thank you.

Have you considered my question as to whether the stars falling to heaven in Isaiah, or the Serpent in Genesis 3 is literal or metaphorical?

No, I haven't. You need to acknowledge your error with I s a I a h 9:5-6 before moving on.

Also, @Tumah already answered you at post #283 regarding literal vs. plain meanings.

 

[Dawnofhope]

9

I s a I a h 9:56 is not a messianic prophecy according to the Jewish perspective. The correct context of this passage is that it describes events that had already taken place in Jewish history, namely, the birth and naming of this particular child (believed to be Hezekiah, the son of King Ahaz), and a prophecy concerning his future mission (which was fulfilled). Hezekiah's role was to lift Judah from the degenerate conditions into which it had sunk, and to lead the indestructible faithful "Remnant of Israel". According to one interpretation, this passage speaks of the wonders performed by G-d for Hezekiah as King of Judah, and in it, the Prophet expresses his praise of G-d for sparing Hezekiah and his kingdom from demise at the hands of Sanheriv and his army, who besieged Jerusalem.

Thank you taking the time to explain your perspective on verses in Isaiah 9. It is actually Isaiah 9:6-7 that I refer, 9:5-6

A few points to consider:

These verses have been a source of debate between Christians and Jews for a very long time and the debate no doubt has resulted in ill feeling and misunderstandings on both sides. Christians and Jews clearly have a very different understanding.

I am a Baha'i, not a Christian. As a Baha'i I am interested in friendly discussion and debates with peoples of different Faiths. I am very interested in understanding your perspectives and have little interest in trying to convert you either to Christianity or the Baha'i Faith. I do not wish to offend and I try not to take offense. So if anyone has been offended by anything I have said that is not my intention.

I believe Isaiah 9:6-7 neither refers to Hezekiah, nor Jesus but is messianic. I agree with everything you have said about Hezekiah and that he was a Godly and great man mentioned in several books of the Tanakh. He Is clearly described in Isaiah 36-39. However the verses in Isaiah 9 refer to:

"Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever."

"Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end!" How can that have been Hezekiah's very temporal government?
"And from that time forward, even forever"?