If "the West" is nice, 500 mil. Islamists won't push for Sharia??

[leibowde84]

which of those would you be happy to compromise on?

I'm not sure we would have to compromise on any of them. Possibly all of them would be augmented or ditched altogether if Sharia was going to be instituted in a non-muslim society.

 

[leibowde84]

Sorry, you're strawmanning me here. Of course there are different interpretations of Sharia. But there are also some common elements that are almost universally agreed to. That core would include things like:

- religiously driven legal systems
- theocratically influenced government
- scripture-driven restrictions on free inquiry
- institutionally enforced misogyny
- loss of key universal human rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion

As for whether Sharia can be removed from Islam, I would of course welcome such a move, I never said it was impossible, but you'd have to admit that it's highly unlikely.

That's where we disagree. I don't think it would be highly unlikely at all. For example, I highly doubt that any Muslim in the US would demand the loss of freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

I'm not sure we would have to compromise on any of them. Possibly all of them would be augmented or ditched altogether if Sharia was going to be instituted in a non-muslim society.

My goodness, man.
What would be the point of even starting up with it then? Foot in the door maneuver, perhaps?
Someone actually tried that in real life at my front door and got their foot slammed in it as i flinched out of fear.
Sorry, i just never had seen it in real life and it was as frightening as any forced entry would tend to be.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Learn how to read . . . . .

Hmm..39 countries surveyed, why would you think 'their country' doesn't mean the country they live in? (USA, Europe, Canada,etc)

Since there isn't even 39 Muslim majority countries....

 

[leibowde84]

My goodness, man.
What would be the point of even starting up with it then? Foot in the door maneuver, perhaps?
Someone actually tried that in real life at my front door and got their foot slammed in it as i flinched out of fear.
Sorry, i just never had seen it in real life and it was as frightening as any forced entry would tend to be.

Not sure what you are getting at here.

 

[leibowde84]

Hmm..39 countries surveyed, why would you think 'their country' doesn't mean the country they live in? (USA, Europe, Canada,etc)

Since there isn't even 39 Muslim majority countries....

The countries are listed in the article. The US, Canada and most of Europe aren't included.

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

Not sure what you are getting at here.

I'm asking why you would ever give sharia a foothold in any form at all. You should know well that fundamentalist Islam forbids all but a single interpretation, so Sharia law would be the physical embodiment of fundamentalist Islam. Your thought that it can be watered down just isn't the reality you/we would ever see.

 

[icehorse]

For example, I highly doubt that any Muslim in the US would demand the loss of freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

Some already are. There are movements to install blasphemy laws. It is quite common for Muslim women in the west to be restricted from apostasy. Aspects of this sort of regressive ideology are already in the gates.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Hmm..39 countries surveyed, why would you think 'their country' doesn't mean the country they live in? (USA, Europe, Canada,etc)

Since there isn't even 39 Muslim majority countries....

I call it reading; you should give it a try.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I call it reading; you should give it a try.

Well how can I compete with wit and cogency like that?

I repeat; 39 countries, not all Muslim majority.

I assure you you would sing a totally different tune if you actually lived anywhere near where Sharia was more than an ultralib talking point.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Well how can I compete with wit and cogency like that?

I repeat; 39 countries, not all Muslim majority.

I assure you you would sing a totally different tune if you actually lived anywhere near where Sharia was more than an ultralib talking point.

"Well how can I compete with wit and cogency like that?"

I have doubts you can.

 

[leibowde84]

Some already are. There are movements to install blasphemy laws. It is quite common for Muslim women in the west to be restricted from apostasy. Aspects of this sort of regressive ideology are already in the gates.

There are also crazy Christians out there wanting basically the same things, so it seems unfair to point to a small group of Muslims who want these things. There are small groups all over the US wanting ludicrous things, but they aren't representative of their entire religion.

If you could show me evidence that any substantial portion of the Muslim community in the US want these things, I'm all ears. But, thus far you have just made claims that are, as of yet, unsubstantiated.

 

[leibowde84]

I'm asking why you would ever give sharia a foothold in any form at all. You should know well that fundamentalist Islam forbids all but a single interpretation, so Sharia law would be the physical embodiment of fundamentalist Islam. Your thought that it can be watered down just isn't the reality you/we would ever see.

I'm not saying that I would give it a foothold. I am merely pointing out that I don't see any evidence that any substantial number of Muslims in the US, for example, would want Sharia law to become the law of the land. Can you provide any evidence of this?

Also, the vast majority of Muslims are not fundamentalists, so your claim here seems ludicrous. But, I'm all ears if you can back it up.

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

I'm not saying that I would give it a foothold. I am merely pointing out that I don't see any evidence that any substantial number of Muslims in the US, for example, would want Sharia law to become the law of the land. Can you provide any evidence of this?

Also, the vast majority of Muslims are not fundamentalists, so your claim here seems ludicrous. But, I'm all ears if you can back it up.

This stuff makes me a little hysterical, so sorry, my bad! I Know most of them aren't fundies and i know they don't want sharia law. I totally know that on a large scale, but there is a microscopic scale hidden sector that must be accounted for in which individuals are either abusing (Domestic) or accepting abuse. Not all by any means, but enough to move public opinion from the deeps over time. This is abuse/acceptance reality at the level of family, friends and neighbors and is hard to see for a number of reasons, mainly rights to privacy, illegal search and seizure, 4th Amendment kind of stuff i agree with and support. No one's privacy need be violated for us to learn and identify the warning signs of abuse and other anti-social behaviors. I only want to emphasize that it's empirically possible to make a change in society for the better through proactive education and strong support for laws that prosecute abuse at any and every level of society, because that is the fertile ground for more extreme behaviors when conditions are right. I beg all of you who read this to learn the warning signs and one of the best places to start is with domestic abuse/violence. Learn all you can and stand against it when you see it. Call the cops, help your fellows in your communities everywhere lean how to be safe, learn how to manage anger and show acceptance and reward for learning and progress from those who have failed in the past, a real showing of good will and a desire to work for better safer communities. Teach your children kindness and let them be free to play and wonder and teach them away from violence by knowing how to identify it at a distance. It can be done.
I did and i was a moron.
Maybe still am, but i won't hurt anyone and i will defend anyone from it, any way i can.

 

[icehorse]

Also, the vast majority of Muslims are not fundamentalists, so your claim here seems ludicrous

It depends on your definition of "fundamentalist". I would agree that there are very few extremists, but there are hundreds of millions of "Islamists", and you could argue that an Islamist is a fundamentalist.

I'm not saying that I would give it a foothold. I am merely pointing out that I don't see any evidence that any substantial number of Muslims in the US, for example, would want Sharia law to become the law of the land. Can you provide any evidence of this?

First, it doesn't take a substantial number to cause trouble.

Second:

Muslims Rapidly Adopt U.S. Social Values

From this poll of Muslims living in the US:

37% think Sharia should be a source of legislation
13% think terrorism is sometimes justified to "defend Islam"

 

[Glaurung]

Can you back this claim up? That, if Sharia was going to be instituted in the western world, it would include all of these things necessarily?4

Dude, what I described is Sharia. If you want an example, open a map and look at how many nations will relieve apostates of their heads. Anything less than what I described wouldn't be Sharia.

And no, neither do I think Muslims have a right to a parallel legal system here in the west that allows them to institute Sharia in areas of family law amongst themselves, which mind you they're already beginning to demand.

 

[Regolith Based Lifeforms]

It depends on your definition of "fundamentalist". I would agree that there are very few extremists, but there are hundreds of millions of "Islamists", and you could argue that an Islamist is a fundamentalist.



First, it doesn't take a substantial number to cause trouble.

Second:

Muslims Rapidly Adopt U.S. Social Values

From this poll of Muslims living in the US:

37% think Sharia should be a source of legislation
13% think terrorism is sometimes justified to "defend Islam"

Thank you for this information, it's a bit worse than i had thought. Good to know.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

It depends on your definition of "fundamentalist". I would agree that there are very few extremists, but there are hundreds of millions of "Islamists", and you could argue that an Islamist is a fundamentalist.



First, it doesn't take a substantial number to cause trouble.

Second:

Muslims Rapidly Adopt U.S. Social Values

From this poll of Muslims living in the US:

37% think Sharia should be a source of legislation
13% think terrorism is sometimes justified to "defend Islam"

Many Americans Uneasy with Mix of Religion and Politics

Although the public clearly sees a strong link between Christianity and the country’s national identity, most Americans think citizen preferences should outweigh the Bible as an influence on American law. When asked which should have more influence over the laws of the country the Bible or the will of the people, even when it conflicts with the Bible most Americans (63%) say the people’s will should have more sway. A significant minority (32%), however, believes the Bible should be more important.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

This thread's only goal is to stereotype and smear Muslims.

 

[icehorse]

This thread's only goal is to stereotype and smear Muslims.

Well in the post before this one you mentioned that many Christians think we should put the Bible before their US citizenship. I'm happy to criticize BOTH Christians AND Muslims who are anti-secular.

The point of this thread is to defend secularism. full stop.