If the world is predominantly religious, why is it such a mess?

[Laika]

I don't "assert" things, even if I believe them. I'm an agnostic theist. In any case, I don't believe a "supernatural realm beyond our comprehension" is necessary for Gods; they can be very, very immanent. For the record, I do believe in an intangible realm, but not that it's inherently "beyond our comprehension".



It's... similar, though perhaps more fatalistic. Wyrd is not so much "fate" as it is "destiny".

And in pre-Christian European conceptions, nothing "made" it. It just... is. The story given in Edda Lore is that there was just a Yawning Gap, and then Fire-Land and Ice-Land (not the country) just... appeared. Then they just crept closer to each other, and as their inter-influence increased, Ymir was just born. Then a cow named Audhumbla was born from the same process, and she licked the ice and uncovered Buri, father or Bor, father of Odin, Vili, and Ve. No "Creator" did this; it just happened.

In my personal conception, the Sole Eternal Being is Death, who is the Mother of Life. The Firstborn of Death is the Weaver, whom I conceive of as a spider, and Her Web, ever being spun, is basically Wyrd. But a spider is significantly smaller than Her web, and the threads can be altered by a delicate external force whether She wills it or no. (...hey, I could use that to tell a Promethean story).

Here's a practical example. It is the Wyrd of humanity that we cannot fly. It wasn't through Seiðr, but that thread was ultimately altered; such that our bodies still cannot fly, but we have built tools that enable us to do so.

I would argue that god does not exist in a physical or material realm and that is why I would say it requires a supernatural realm for a god to exist.("assert" was perhaps a strong word as I'm obviously speaking from a contrary point of view).

I tend to think of existence less as something which is determined or fated. But I know what you mean by saying it just "is". I tend to be a bit suspcious of the concept of a "Big Bang" as the origin of the universe (from a position of ignorance), as it leaves the cause unexplained. So again, I don't believe there is a creator and that the world just "is" and always has been.

Death is pretty central to understanding life and once we become aware of "him", he is our constant companion. (I'm being honest, in that I think of death as a person, waiting at some metaphorical door to take us away, as it is hard to think of it in a realistic way. perhaps death is a shadow of my future self yet to be realized). I suppose the difference between fatalism and determinism can best be seen in regards to death; fatalism says the time, place and way we die, whereas determinism would argue only that death is a necessary result of the exhaustion of our biological existence- it does not suppose that it is a fixed point in time only an ultimate- destination. Our journey there is still the product of our freedom.

I like the story of the weaver-spider. Spider webs are very beautiful in morning dew. As the spider is symbolic of death, are we the flies to be caught in the web of fate?

I see many of your points, thank you for your candor!

So, why is religion necessary if it's not really driving the world to become a better place?

Part of my point is that atheists often get a bad rap by many religious sectors and it's funny to me considering the state of the world and the fact that atheists are well in the minority.

Religion is necessary to conceive of our place in the world. The evolution to a point in our understanding where we become conscious of our own power, when we become as close to gods as it ever possible and therefore won't need religion, is hinted at in religion and so are its dangers. Yet in religion, it remains illusive since it is not man that makes the world a better place, but the divine which we neither fully comprehend or control.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I see many of your points, thank you for your candor!

So, why is religion necessary if it's not really driving the world to become a better place?

Part of my point is that atheists often get a bad rap by many religious sectors and it's funny to me considering the state of the world and the fact that atheists are well in the minority.

You have to remember that whatever one's religion, most of the world is the "wrong" religion and if they converted to the "right" one, things would be much better.

 

[Sapiens]

...

Religion is necessary to conceive of our place in the world. The evolution to a point in our understanding where we become conscious of our own power, when we become as close to gods as it ever possible and therefore won't need religion, is hinted at in religion and so are its dangers. Yet in religion, it remains illusive since it is not man that makes the world a better place, but the divine which we neither fully comprehend or control.

I beg to differ, religion distorts our place in the world with taxocentristic clap-trap. Only science says that humans are just one more animal.

 

[Riverwolf]

I would argue that god does not exist in a physical or material realm and that is why I would say it requires a supernatural realm for a god to exist.("assert" was perhaps a strong word as I'm obviously speaking from a contrary point of view).

Suppose I should clarify something. When I refer to "Gods", I'm referring to things which are "deified". That is, things are "Gods" because someone or someones say so; this makes the status of Godhood a subjective one, rather than an objective one. In this sense, for example, Emperor Akihito is a "God", despite also being a fully mortal man without any supernatural or mystical powers beyond, from what I can tell, being generally awesome.

However, this isn't to say atheism is an impossible position. Under this conception, an atheist is someone who hasn't deified anything. (And I mean actually deified, not metaphorically deified.)

Beings that are thought of as "Gods", "Demons" or anything else in that general category, that are called kami in Japanese, nomen in Latin, etc., I call by the somewhat archaic word, "wights". And I do believe in the existence of wights. I don't call them "supernatural", because everything that exists, even if not understood, is natural; I call them intangible.

I tend to think of existence less as something which is determined or fated. But I know what you mean by saying it just "is". I tend to be a bit suspcious of the concept of a "Big Bang" as the origin of the universe (from a position of ignorance), as it leaves the cause unexplained. So again, I don't believe there is a creator and that the world just "is" and always has been.

Death is pretty central to understanding life and once we become aware of "him", he is our constant companion. (I'm being honest, in that I think of death as a person, waiting at some metaphorical door to take us away, as it is hard to think of it in a realistic way. perhaps death is a shadow of my future self yet to be realized). I suppose the difference between fatalism and determinism can best be seen in regards to death; fatalism says the time, place and way we die, whereas determinism would argue only that death is a necessary result of the exhaustion of our biological existence- it does not suppose that it is a fixed point in time only an ultimate- destination. Our journey there is still the product of our freedom.

I like the story of the weaver-spider. Spider webs are very beautiful in morning dew. As the spider is symbolic of death, are we the flies to be caught in the web of fate?

Perhaps. Or maybe we're smaller spiders in our own rights, capable of spinning our own smaller webs that connect in a larger Colony. Either way, the Weaver is still subject to Death. (Who I regard as a female Mother figure; She's named Hel in Edda Lore though She's not in the same cosmic position there. ... and yes, Her name is the etymological ancestor of the Modern English 'Hell'.)

BTW, as a rather humorous aside, I chose the image of a spider largely for two reasons:

1. I'm an artist and so feel a certain kinship with spiders, and yet...
2. I'm arachnophobic, quite badly. ^_^

The Weaver is not part of survived traditional Germanic Lore. I'm not even sure if anything to do with spiders has survived.

 

[nazz]

For a world that is so religion-saturated (Abrahamic faith-based to be specific) ...why is there so much poverty, hatred, violence, bigotry, chaos, war, immorality, oppression, and greed?

Just my random question for the day.

A lot of it is because of religion. A lot of it is because most people don't take their religion seriously.

 

[George-ananda]

For a world that is so religion-saturated (Abrahamic faith-based to be specific) ...why is there so much poverty, hatred, violence, bigotry, chaos, war, immorality, oppression, and greed?

Just my random question for the day.

Because the world is filled with imperfect human beings on a growing experience.

 

[Laika]

I beg to differ, religion distorts our place in the world with taxocentristic clap-trap. Only science says that humans are just one more animal.

This is true. We are animals, but we are unique among animals- at least in the magnitude to which we can change our environment. I think in Gensis it is "God created man in his own image." If the reverse is true, and man created god in his image, religion distorts our place in the world because we think we can achieve infinite power derived from our consciousness rather than one limited by our physical powers and our capacity to make what we desire happen in a predictable way.

Suppose I should clarify something. When I refer to "Gods", I'm referring to things which are "deified". That is, things are "Gods" because someone or someones say so; this makes the status of Godhood a subjective one, rather than an objective one. In this sense, for example, Emperor Akihito is a "God", despite also being a fully mortal man without any supernatural or mystical powers beyond, from what I can tell, being generally awesome.

However, this isn't to say atheism is an impossible position. Under this conception, an atheist is someone who hasn't deified anything. (And I mean actually deified, not metaphorically deified.)

Beings that are thought of as "Gods", "Demons" or anything else in that general category, that are called kami in Japanese, nomen in Latin, etc., I call by the somewhat archaic word, "wights". And I do believe in the existence of wights. I don't call them "supernatural", because everything that exists, even if not understood, is natural; I call them intangible.



Perhaps. Or maybe we're smaller spiders in our own rights, capable of spinning our own smaller webs that connect in a larger Colony. Either way, the Weaver is still subject to Death. (Who I regard as a female Mother figure; She's named Hel in Edda Lore though She's not in the same cosmic position there.)

BTW, as a rather humorous aside, I chose the image of a spider largely for two reasons:

1. I'm an artist and so feel a certain kinship with spiders, and yet...
2. I'm arachnophobic, quite badly. ^_^

The Weaver is not part of survived traditional Germanic Lore. I'm not even sure if anything to do with spiders has survived.

I tend to think of gods as generally anything that we conceive of to be "infinite"; God is someone whose power is "infinite" whereas man is finite because of his physical properties. The distinction between natural and supernatural would appear to be a product of my atheism in that a line has to be drawn somewhere, so understandably it may not hold up.

I suspect I would seek to deify "man" in some sense as a sacred value, so I might not be an atheist in you're sense.Though perhaps it is more the love of mankind which I would deify. In a way I conceive of 'humanity' as a divine cause, as something which gives me continuity with the past that happened before I was born and the future that will happen after I die. It doesn't deal well with the infinity of the universe, but certainly with how great our diversity and potential is.

I like that you're creating you're own beliefs and I imagine it must be very rewarding. I think having a spider as a symbol of death is a good choice, especially if it something you fear. I had an poster of a wolf on my wall at some point; it kind of represented that ferocious passion I feel sometimes and how it can work both ways as a force for others and to be solitary and alone. I'm no where near as savage as that implies; I hope it's more like free spirited.

 

[Riverwolf]

I tend to think of gods as generally anything that we conceive of to be "infinite"; God is someone whose power is "infinite" whereas man is finite because of his physical properties. The distinction between natural and supernatural would appear to be a product of my atheism in that a line has to be drawn somewhere, so understandably it may not hold up.

I suspect I would seek to deify "man" in some sense as a sacred value, so I might not be an atheist in you're sense.Though perhaps it is more the love of mankind which I would deify. In a way I conceive of 'humanity' as a divine cause, as something which gives me continuity with the past that happened before I was born and the future that will happen after I die. It doesn't deal well with the infinity of the universe, but certainly with how great our diversity and potential is.

I'm pretty sure there's a term for that. ^_^

I don't really think of Gods as infinite, because the Old Gods are anything but. They can, and do, die, and are very imperfect. Woden didn't start out knowing so much; he had to seek knowledge and wisdom out.

But for all His Wisdom, His Son Balder, God of All That Is Good (basically), died nevertheless.

I like that you're creating you're own beliefs and I imagine it must be very rewarding. I think having a spider as a symbol of death is a good choice, especially if it something you fear. I had an poster of a wolf on my wall at some point; it kind of represented that ferocious passion I feel sometimes and how it can work both ways as a force for others and to be solitary and alone. I'm no where near as savage as that implies; I hope it's more like free spirited.

I do believe in Creativity, and that religion is not static. The Old Way is my Source and Inspiration, and I do honor the Old Gods. But the Lore has been lost, mostly. So I reforge it. But the spider is not iteslf Death, but the Firstborn of Death. Remember that I named Death the Mother of Life, so if anything, the Weaver is Life.

I have the Wolf for part of my name, not for solitariness, but as an inspiration to reach out. Without the Pack, a Wolf is nothing; the Lone Wolf starves. And wolves aren't savage at all; like us, they're tribe-social. They have a bad reputation in Folklore more because they were a huge nuisance to farmers(and are bigger and scarier than foxes), more than for being an actual danger to humans.

And that all ties into my original point. My religion is not submissive, but active. I'm not limited by the scant surviving accounts of Lore, but instead choose to reforge my own Lore from the fragments using the fire of my soul and hammer of my intellect. My Wyrd is that of an introvert, but I choose to not submit to that, and have been taking steps to redirect that Thread into something more socially alive.

In fact, a major aspect of my religion summed up BEAUTIFULLY in a most unlikely source. You see, since my approach to religion is living and dynamic, I take religious and spiritual inspiration from sources that were never meant to be religious or spiritual.

LIU KANG: If you are Raiden [God of Thunder], why did you let [my brother] Chan die? Why didn't you protect him?!
RAIDEN: Why didn't you?

 

[Straw Dog]

For a world that is so religion-saturated (Abrahamic faith-based to be specific) ...why is there so much poverty, hatred, violence, bigotry, chaos, war, immorality, oppression, and greed?

Just my random question for the day.

And the answer is randomness.

Everything happens for a reason, but those reasons are often random and personally meaningless.

For example, an asteroid may be re-directed into a collision course with Earth. There's a reason, but it was random and doesn't mean much to us once we're all dead.

 

[Laika]

And that all ties into my original point. My religion is not submissive, but active. I'm not limited by the scant surviving accounts of Lore, but instead choose to reforge my own Lore from the fragments using the fire of my soul and hammer of my intellect. My Wyrd is that of an introvert, but I choose to not submit to that, and have been taking steps to redirect that Thread into something more socially alive.

I'm not going to argue with this, as I feel exactly the same way about my atheism and regardless of whether either of us is right or wrong, it's still admirable. To be honest, I think this is probably the best way to practice a religion. I actively seek out different ideas, generally Marxist but not always, which suit my purposes. I'm also an an introvert so I know how much effort can go into finding a belief that "feels right" even if you can never be sure it's 100% true.
Atheism should really be about liberating humanity, and maybe I shouldn't be so certain about excluding religion from that as I can be slavish to what I think is the "truth". I often wonder if I need to be a militant atheist, but really I need to be more self-assured about it. I suspect you know what I mean as in creating something like a belief system, you can mix things up and get passive-aggressive over a belief because it is so deeply held and closely related to my/your sense of self. Even if God is a projection of man, a person's atheism is still going to include some projection of their sense of self and their insecurities.

 

[nazz]

 

[Spiderman]

It depends. For Muslims, they bring misery and suffering and war to the world when they obey the commands and example of the inventor of their Religion.

When Christians bring misery and suffering and war to the world, they do it in disobedience to the founder of their Faith.

So the misery that Christians bring to the world is their decision to be Christian by name and not by deed. That would be the majority of Christians who do that.

Christians and Muslims make up more than half the world's population.

 

[Deidre]

Religion implies that man is not in control of his surroundings and is subservient to them as a supernatural force or "god". We seek the illusion of control by submitting to such a higher power, only of course to feel that we are being controlled and are the victims of such a power and "the problem of evil". We blame god for evil in the world, but really we're the ones who are making it that way. Yet we struggle to recognize it because doing so would mean admitting we do not have the understanding of our own nature to know what is good either. So we tell ourselves we are sinners to save us from the burden of growth and knowledge. At this stage we do not have the knowledge to know what is good, nor the power or freedom to make the world better. But we'll get there. eventually.

What an outstanding post!

 

[Revoltingest]

For a world that is so religion-saturated (Abrahamic faith-based to be specific) ...why is there so much poverty, hatred, violence, bigotry, chaos, war, immorality, oppression, and greed?

I wondered too, so I asked my Xian fundie worker about this. (He's a big fan of posting the 10 Commandments in public schools because it would improve student behavior.) The question I posed:
Why would a believer do something which he knew was wrong, fully knowing that his god would know he did wrong?
His answer was that believers are like non-believers in that they just do things without giving it any thought. I don't think he saw the irony that religion, even in his opinion, doesn't get people to behave morally.

 

[Deidre]

I wondered too, so I asked my Xian fundie worker about this. (He's a big fan of posting the 10 Commandments in public schools because it would improve student behavior.) The question I posed:
Why would a believer do something which he knew was wrong, fully knowing that his god would know he did wrong?
His answer was that believers are like non-believers in that they just do things without giving it any thought. I don't think he saw the irony that religion, even in his opinion, doesn't get people to behave morally.

Precisely. Religion doesn't make people behave better, in fact...it gives an illusion of goodness, often times.

An interesting study was done (but as studies go, it can always be open to interpretation) that stated the reasons why atheists give to charities, and why religious people do. Atheists give to charities mainly because they are moved by compassion for humanity, whereas the religious people were more moved to give to charities out of a duty to follow their religion, which dictates to be giving to those in need. And atheists ''out give'' on average to charities, than Christians. The sad part of that is atheists are the minority.

Now let me say...I'm not trying to imply that atheists are better than religious people...truly, I'm not. What I'm driving at is ...compassion doesn't come from religion, neither does morality. If it did...the world would be in a lot better shape. If your religion doesn't make you a better person, why follow it?

 

[Quintessence]

Now let me say...I'm not trying to imply that atheists are better than religious people...truly, I'm not. What I'm driving at is ...compassion doesn't come from religion, neither does morality. If it did...the world would be in a lot better shape. If your religion doesn't make you a better person, why follow it?

May I ask why you assume that the role of religions is to make the world a "better" place or to make a person a "better" person?

This assumption and these questions you're asking are just very strange to me. Even granting that this is the case (and I don't believe it is), it does not logically follow that the world would be a "better" place if the goal of religions was to make it "better." You'll notice I've been putting that word "better" in quotes all the time? I do that because nobody agrees on what that is. People having different ideas of how the world ought to be is the fundamental engine of war and conflict in human society.

 

[Spiderman]

THe world is a mess because people are selfish and inconsiderate of others.

 

[Deidre]

May I ask why you assume that the role of religions is to make the world a "better" place or to make a person a "better" person?

This assumption and these questions you're asking are just very strange to me. Even granting that this is the case (and I don't believe it is), it does not logically follow that the world would be a "better" place if the goal of religions was to make it "better." You'll notice I've been putting that word "better" in quotes all the time? I do that because nobody agrees on what that is. People having different ideas of how the world ought to be is the fundamental engine of war and conflict in human society.

Okay, that's fair...let me reword.
The world doesn't need religion. If on any given day, the sum total of a person's life is based on their good or bad choices (and I believe that to be true)...then, religion is honestly an irrelevant concept.

 

[Deidre]

Because there are several million religions throughout the world, and none of them actually agree on anything. Within Christianity itself there are 30,000 denominations alone.

Instead of taking time out of their day to help others, most people are too busy fighting amongst themselves.

Also, the negative things that you mention, are not something that will ever be eradicated, even if there was only one singular religion on the planet. This is because they are the exasperated versions of natural human qualities. The more people we have, the bigger these problems will seem, because the more that will succumb to them.

Reminds me of when my cats chase their tails. ^_^

 

[Deidre]

It's a necessary coping tool.

agree, that is what it was for me.

I believe that the bad rap atheists receive is in response to the fears of the believer: That the rejection of one of the primary sources of comfort as baseless may actually be true. They need the reassurance of a collective agreement--no disagreement allowed.

Yes, true...and when I was a theist, I didn't understand atheism...until the path led me to it...almost naturally. But, I still have spiritual leanings, I can't say for sure that a deity doesn't exist...who knows right? I'm okay with not knowing, religion doesn't have anymore answers than an atheist does, to be honest. It just gives an illusion it does.

These are human problems. Religion can exacerbate or remedy some of them, but at the core these are faults in what we are.

Yes, we're all in the same boat and religion won't save us from ourselves.