"If there is a hell, there can be no heaven"

[Bronze]

In your view, does "omnibenevolence" mean forcing people to go to Heaven who don't want to be there?

no, on the rare occasion someone doesnt want to go to heaven, he could send them.......where ever it is they do want to go, which is ultimately heaven anyway, because heaven is supposed to be 'the perfect place and situation that best meets your desire'.

 

[Katzpur]

What do you suppose I would be proud of?

Well, to me, compassion is a godly virtue. It's something I would think each of us would want to gain over time as opposed to lose over time. The way you worded this, (i.e. that you would be "past the point of caring") implied that lack of compassion was a step forward.

 

[Bronze]

Well, to me, compassion is a godly virtue. It's something I would think each of us would want to gain over time as opposed to lose over time. The way you worded this, you seemed to be quite pleased that you would be "over" feeling bad about someone else's eternal suffering.

i agree completely. wait! who's side are you on? i thought you opposed me, if you agree with that, then wouldnt you also have to agree that because of hell, there can be no heaven? like i said in the opening post

 

[Katzpur]

i agree completely. wait! who's side are you on? i thought you opposed me, if you agree with that, then wouldnt you also have to agree that because of hell, there can be no heaven? like i said in the opening post

I'm not on anybody's side. I believe in both Heaven and Hell, but that the overwhelming majority of all who have ever lived will end up in Heaven. That is not to say that I expect to be "beyond caring" about those who don't end up in Heaven.

 

[The Seeker]

When my wife passed away, several people told me that "she's in a better place now". I always wondered how people could think she was in a better place if she was no longer with her friends and family. If anything she probably feels like she's in hell. Heaven can only be a wonderful place if everyone you loved on Earth is there.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Well, to me, compassion is a godly virtue. It's something I would think each of us would want to gain over time as opposed to lose over time. The way you worded this, (i.e. that you would be "past the point of caring") implied that lack of compassion was a step forward.

Not a lack of compassion, just an extreme excess of joyfulness. Perhaps I worded it incorrectly.

I believe that when we get to Heaven, we'll be so happy that we're with God, that we'll "forget" in a sense that we have loved ones in Hell. Maybe that is a wrong view, but it is what I've always thought.

What do you believe Katz? I'm assuming you believe there's a Heaven...do you think that God will let everyone go to Heaven or somethin?

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I'm not on anybody's side. I believe in both Heaven and Hell, but that the overwhelming majority of all who have ever lived will end up in Heaven. That is not to say that I expect to be "beyond caring" about those who don't end up in Heaven.

How do you figure that most people will end up in Heaven? The way our world looks today, it seems like followers of God are in the minority.

And then what about those who do end up suffering in Hell? According to your logic (so it seems to me, anyway) it won't be like Heaven for us, because we have friends or loved ones or just plain aquaintences in Hell. That situation would ruin Heaven for me, anyway.

i agree completely. wait! who's side are you on? i thought you opposed me, if you agree with that, then wouldnt you also have to agree that because of hell, there can be no heaven? like i said in the opening post

And now this is about choosing sides?



Typical...

 

[Sunstone]

When my wife passed away, several people told me that "she's in a better place now". I always wondered how people could think she was in a better place if she was no longer with her friends and family. If anything she probably feels like she's in hell. Heaven can only be a wonderful place if everyone you loved on Earth is there.

Sorry to hear about your loss, Seeker.

 

[Katzpur]

What do you believe Katz? I'm assuming you believe there's a Heaven...do you think that God will let everyone go to Heaven or somethin?

No, not everybody, but I'd say that in the LDS view, Heaven is much larger than it is to most Christians. And of course, you probably know by now that we believe that those who did not have a chance to hear, understand and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ during their lifetimes will have that opportunity before they are resurrected and stand before God to be judged.

 

[Katzpur]

When my wife passed away, several people told me that "she's in a better place now". I always wondered how people could think she was in a better place if she was no longer with her friends and family. If anything she probably feels like she's in hell. Heaven can only be a wonderful place if everyone you loved on Earth is there.

Well, not everyone dies at the same time, that does seem to pose a bit of a dilemma. The only way to remove sorrow at death would be to remove love during life. I'm sure you wouldn't want that. Anyway, according to my belief, you'll end up together at some point, if not just now.

 

[Runlikethewind]

i agree completely. wait! who's side are you on? i thought you opposed me, if you agree with that, then wouldnt you also have to agree that because of hell, there can be no heaven? like i said in the opening post

I agree with the sentiments expressed by Katzpur too but I am opposed to the argument put forward in the OP. What I have expressed is an idea of hell which is not compulsory but voluntary. One could still have compassion for those in hell but since it was their desire to be there it would not necessarily effect the bliss of those in heaven. In any event the existence of hell doesn't mean there is no heaven, hell could exist but there might not be anyone there or it might not be eternal. In either case heaven would be unaffected by the existence of an empty hell or a temporal hell. So the existence of hell is only a problem to the existence of heaven under certain views of what hell is. Other views of hell may exist which are compatible with heaven as I have tried to illustrate.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

No, not everybody, but I'd say that in the LDS view, Heaven is much larger than it is to most Christians. And of course, you probably know by now that we believe that those who did not have a chance to hear, understand and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ during their lifetimes will have that opportunity before they are resurrected and stand before God to be judged.

Yes. I know that quite well by now.

About that, I believe that when little children die, they go to Heaven, because they're unaccountable. They don't understand sin, and they don't know what God expects of them.

Wouldn't it be the same for a 14th-century American Indian who had (obviously) never heard the Word? They don't understand sin...they don't know what God expects of them. So how, then, could we say they were accountable and bound for Hell?

So, as you can see, I'm starting to believe that those who haven't heard the Word are unaccountable, and therefore going straight to Heaven. (Obviously not being a Mormon, I don't think they'll get that 2nd chance, so to speak, I believe they would just go straight there after their judgement.)

 

[Katzpur]

(Obviously not being a Mormon, I don't think they'll get that 2nd chance, so to speak, I believe they would just go straight there after their judgement.)

Wait! Did I say "2nd chance"? :no: I just said "a chance." :yes:

 

[Runlikethewind]

In these discussions of heaven and hell I always like to bring up the Catholic concept of purgatory. Technically purgatory is a part of heaven and not a seperate place from heaven and hell as it is often perceived (even by Catholics). Purgatory completes the process of salvation and/or sanctification after one has died. This makes it allot easier to get to heaven since one only needs bare minimum and the rest of the work can be finished in purgatory. The idea of a voluntary hell that I have spoken of makes it possible for even the worst sinner/non-believer/whatever to get into heaven through purgatory because all one has to do is be open to God and willing to be purged of their impurities and off to purgatory they go. This may be a bad description but in any even my point is THANK GOD FOR PURGATORY!:woohoo:

 

[The Seeker]

Well, not everyone dies at the same time, that does seem to pose a bit of a dilemma. The only way to remove sorrow at death would be to remove love during life. I'm sure you wouldn't want that. Anyway, according to my belief, you'll end up together at some point, if not just now.

I don't really believes that God exists, but if he does I'm going straight to hell, do not pass go or collect 200 frubals. A prerequisite to get into heaven is the belief in God and I hold no such belief. So, will my wife be truly happy if I never get to join her in heaven? God only knows

 

[Katzpur]

I don't really believes that God exists, but if he does I'm going straight to hell, do not pass go or collect 200 frubals.

Suppose you don't end up in either heaven or hell when you die, but in some intermediate state? Would you reconsider?

A prerequisite to get into heaven is the belief in God and I hold no such belief. So, will my wife be truly happy if I never get to join her in heaven? God only knows

Again, I believe in God and I believe in Heaven and I don't buy a word you're saying.

 

[Katzpur]

In these discussions of heaven and hell I always like to bring up the Catholic concept of purgatory. Technically purgatory is a part of heaven and not a seperate place from heaven and hell as it is often perceived (even by Catholics). Purgatory completes the process of salvation and/or sanctification after one has died. This makes it allot easier to get to heaven since one only needs bare minimum and the rest of the work can be finished in purgatory. The idea of a voluntary hell that I have spoken of makes it possible for even the worst sinner/non-believer/whatever to get into heaven through purgatory because all one has to do is be open to God and willing to be purged of their impurities and off to purgatory they go. This may be a bad description but in any even my point is THANK GOD FOR PURGATORY!:woohoo:

I would love to have a discussion with you on the difference between the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and the LDS doctrine of the Spirit World. I think there are some interesting similarities. Would you by any chance be interested?

 

[Runlikethewind]

I don't really believes that God exists, but if he does I'm going straight to hell, do not pass go or collect 200 frubals. A prerequisite to get into heaven is the belief in God and I hold no such belief. So, will my wife be truly happy if I never get to join her in heaven? God only knows

Hopefully you are wrong about belief in God being a prerequisite for getting into heaven. I tend to think that it is not, that getting into heaven is a gift from God and He can give it to anyone He wants whether they believe in Him or not. Of course it helps if you do believe in Him.

 

[Runlikethewind]

I would love to have a discussion with you on the difference between the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and the LDS doctrine of the Spirit World. I think there are some interesting similarities. Would you by any chance be interested?

Intriguing, I don't think I have ever hear of the spirit world. I would love to discuss this with you!

 

[Katzpur]

Intriguing, I don't think I have ever hear of the spirit world. I would love to discuss this with you!

I'll start a new thread in the "one on one" debate forum, but it will probably be as much a discussion as a debate. I'm sure we'll have some disagreements, but I think we'll find a lot of common ground and it will be interesting to learn about one another's beliefs. I'll start it tomorrow and PM you when it's there.