If There is Only One God, Then How Do We Know There is Only One God?

[Serenity7855]

Because if there were, we would not need inefficient alternatives that stop working reliably when you are old or you have been to too many metal concerts.

Unless, the designer likes to introduce useless things, of course,

I do not think He does.

When you say God is necessary for morality and civilty to thrive, what you really mean is that BELIEF in God is important for all these things. SO, what you are really trying to prove is the importance of the existence of the belief, not the subject of the belief, at best.

No, I mean that God provided a method for us to live with each other without being immoral and corrupt. Many people are moral yet have no belief. That has come about from the influences of the society that they live in, who believe in Christ and live a Christ centred life. Christ has set the bar, we are those who just follow it, whether we believe in Him or not.

I come from a country (Sweden) where the only believers in God are Muslims and a few vestigial representants of Lutheranism. True is, apart from my past self, I do not know any Swede who believe in Jesus. Do you think that this entails that we are immoral and uncivilized, today?

Ciao

- viole

Let me just give you a couple of facts about Sweden, though I am sure that you already know.

According to Wikipedia,

Corruption in Sweden has been defined as "the abuse of power" by Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brå). By receiving bribes, bribe takers abuse their position of power, which is consistent with how the National Anti-Corruption Unit of the Swedish Prosecution Authority specifies the term. Although bribes and improper rewards are central in the definition of corruption in Sweden, corruption in the sense of "abuse of power" can also manifest itself in other crimes such as misuse of office, embezzlement, fraud and breach of trust against a principal.

All populations have a degree of corruption simply because not everyone is inclined to be moral. It is the nature of man to be carnal. Satan is currently the god of this world and he is doing an exemplary job of it as his influence is rife. As you can see by this article, Sweden is not void of corruption, however, your argument fails because there is just over 9 million people in Sweden but there are 7 billion people in the world. Even if those 9 million were all saints it would not make a difference to the point I was making, that a God's influence is essential in keeping corruption and immorality at bay.

But your argument is questionable by saying that there is very few Christians in Sweden. According to internet sources, more than two thirds are christian. Clearly that is why Sweden rates so low in corruption, which it clearly does,. Lutheran Christianity is officially the largest religion in Sweden, with 6.3 million Swedish citizens being members of the Church of Sweden. That is two thirds of the population of Sweden are Christians. There is an underlying sense of morality that is gleaned from that religion that gives Sweden it's moral climate, not to mention that Sweden is historically steeped in religion.

But none of this is significant as your example is so small that an accurate conclusion cannot be reached from it. Even if it were a viable argument It is like the old saying goes "If you live with pigs long enough then you will begin to squeal" If you live in a morally aware society for long enough then you to will become morally aware. That, I believe, is a given, however, there has to be a set of morals that we are expected to live by. That is where God's existence is essential. He introduced the moral values that we live by today. The morals I speak of can be found in the Holy Bible under commandments, precepts and principles. Can you quote me another source. Has anyone been as successful as He in teaching morality?

The idea was to encourage us to be morally clean through the example of the life of the Saviour, Jesus Christ. That was 2000 years ago and His influence is still very strong today. That means that He has influenced anyone today who is morally astute, which includes the Swedes who do not believe in Christ. It is always far wiser to look at the bigger picture then it is to rely on isolated situations. What you see today has taken time to develop, whether it be good or bad. The Swedish culture has taken much time to achieve its current state of civility. Undoubtedly, religion would have played a major role in creating a society that is less corrupt then most. Sadly, there are many nation who unashamedly display their chequered past far to well.

 

[viole]

I do not think He does.

Well, if telepathy existed, then the standard methods of communication woukd be pretty useless.

No, I mean that God provided a method for us to live with each other without being immoral and corrupt. Many people are moral yet have no belief. That has come about from the influences of the society that they live in, who believe in Christ and live a Christ centred life. Christ has set the bar, we are those who just follow it, whether we believe in Him or not.

Do you think Japanese people are immoral?

Let me just give you a couple of facts about Sweden, though I am sure that you already know.

According to Wikipedia,

Corruption in Sweden has been defined as "the abuse of power" by Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brå). By receiving bribes, bribe takers abuse their position of power, which is consistent with how the National Anti-Corruption Unit of the Swedish Prosecution Authority specifies the term. Although bribes and improper rewards are central in the definition of corruption in Sweden, corruption in the sense of "abuse of power" can also manifest itself in other crimes such as misuse of office, embezzlement, fraud and breach of trust against a principal.

This is a definition. I am sure the Swedes define also what could be considered rape. That does not make Sweden a country of rapists or corrupt people.

All populations have a degree of corruption simply because not everyone is inclined to be moral. It is the nature of man to be carnal. Satan is currently the god of this world and he is doing an exemplary job of it as his influence is rife. As you can see by this article, Sweden is not void of corruption, however, your argument fails because there is just over 9 million people in Sweden but there are 7 billion people in the world. Even if those 9 million were all saints it would not make a difference to the point I was making, that a God's influence is essential in keeping corruption and immorality at bay.

Since Sweden rates pretty high on all aspects concerning quality of life, your point is moot. It shows that belief in God is not necessary at all in order to have a civilized and happy society.

But I agree that some people might find it terrible for a society to allow gay marriages or things of the sort. The Muslims in Sweden for instance. But what do they know of Christian values?

But your argument is questionable by saying that there is very few Christians in Sweden. According to internet sources, more than two thirds are christian. Clearly that is why Sweden rates so low in corruption, which it clearly does,. Lutheran Christianity is officially the largest religion in Sweden, with 6.3 million Swedish citizens being members of the Church of Sweden. That is two thirds of the population of Sweden are Christians. There is an underlying sense of morality that is gleaned from that religion that gives Sweden it's moral climate, not to mention that Sweden is historically steeped in religion.

I am also still a member of the Lutheran church of Sweden. People are registered by default at birth.

But none of this is significant as your example is so small that an accurate conclusion cannot be reached from it. Even if it were a viable argument It is like the old saying goes "If you live with pigs long enough then you will begin to squeal" If you live in a morally aware society for long enough then you to will become morally aware. That, I believe, is a given, however, there has to be a set of morals that we are expected to live by. That is where God's existence is essential. He introduced the moral values that we live by today. The morals I speak of can be found in the Holy Bible under commandments, precepts and principles. Can you quote me another source. Has anyone been as successful as He in teaching morality?

Again, what you need is belief that those moral commands come from God. The actual existence of God is not relevant in order to achieve your moral goals. If everybody believed the Bible and followed it, you would have the perfect moral society (from your point of view) even if God did not exist.

By the way, please God, add "thou shall not hold slaves" in the list of commandments. Just to make it clear. There is nothing wrong with 11 commandements and I am sure that Your power to divinely inspire scriptures did not sedate with the years.

The idea was to encourage us to be morally clean through the example of the life of the Saviour, Jesus Christ. That was 2000 years ago and His influence is still very strong today. That means that He has influenced anyone today who is morally astute, which includes the Swedes who do not believe in Christ. It is always far wiser to look at the bigger picture then it is to rely on isolated situations. What you see today has taken time to develop, whether it be good or bad. The Swedish culture has taken much time to achieve its current state of civility. Undoubtedly, religion would have played a major role in creating a society that is less corrupt then most. Sadly, there are many nation who unashamedly display their chequered past far to well.

Point taken.

Thank you Jesus for inspiring Sweden to allow gay marriages and adoptions of children by gay couples, via the influence of your wonderful morality on our culture. With support of your church, as well. Where would we be without You now? Probably still discriminating those people.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Serenity7855]

Well, if telepathy existed, then the standard methods of communication woukd be pretty useless.

What a very interesting post. It would seem that you have issues with those people who believe that homosexuality is sinful. Those same people also have issues with all sexual perversions, like pedeophillia and rape, yet you are specifically selecting homosexuality for your critique, as though it is an issue for you. It is of no concern to me how two consenting adults agree to act with each other, or what there reasoning for it is. It is my concern that I insure that I do not act in the same manner as God says that all sexual perversion is a sin. It is my sins that I must answer to, not anybody else's. Whether you consider it to be natural or unnatural is anecdotal.

Useless compared to what? I mean, I agree with you, however, it does the job, even if it is badly. If telepathy does exist it maybe because it would be even worse then what we have.

Do you think Japanese people are immoral?

I am sure that some are, however, what they are today is the result of their history and religion. They are reaping good fruit as a result of their beliefs. Both Shinto and Buddhism are religions that are both passive and acquiescent in nature creating a civilised society. Would that have the same effect if their history was full of immoral tyrants? No, it would not, therefore, their lack of immorality is the result of the religions they follow.

This is a definition. I am sure the Swedes define also what could be considered rape. That does not make Sweden a country of rapists or corrupt people.

The point I was making is that some people are incapable of civility

Since Sweden rates pretty high on all aspects concerning quality of life, your point is moot.

Well, that maybe your opinion, however, it is my opinion that they are the result of there historical religious lifestyle, which was Christianity. It is not who they are today that makes them immoral or moral, it is who they were yesterday.

It shows that belief in God is not necessary at all in order to have a civilized and happy society.

That is a hypothesis that can never be tested. Our history tells us that God has been around for at least over 6,000 years and that He set the bar on the laws of morality, therefore, we have never had a time when His laws on morality did not exists so we will never know if what you say is true. I would be inclined to think that it is a result of subjective reasoning, personal opinion.

But I agree that some people might find it terrible for a society to allow gay marriages or things of the sort. The Muslims in Sweden for instance. But what do they know of Christian values?

There are many moralistic parallels between Muslims and Christians. We should not be so quick as to judge the entire religion on the radical acts of the minority extremists.

I am also still a member of the Lutheran church of Sweden. People are registered by default at birth.

But what does that tell you? That two thirds of Sweden's population are Christians or that only one third have bothered to remove their registration. The fact is that over 6 million residence of Sweden are registered as Christian ultimately resulting in a harmonious society. That you say that they maybe registered but they are not active christians is again anecdotal.

Again, what you need is belief that those moral commands come from God.

For me it is just a matter of looking at it objectively, and without ardent bigotry, and you will conclude that it is not necessary to have a perfect knowledge of God to know that He exists, The circumstantial evidence cumulatively provides us with sufficient evidence, that is, if you really want to know.

The actual existence of God is not relevant in order to achieve your moral goals.

Quite right. It is the result of adhering to those moral values that enable us to achieve our moral goals. He has played His part by introducing them to Moses. It is now down to us how we use are agency to either demonstrate compliance or disobedience.

If everybody believed the Bible and followed it, you would have the perfect moral society (from your point of view) even if God did not exist.

Yes, however, your comparison is hypothetical as God is essential to the plan of salvation because He is the creator of mankind and instigator of those moral values. Without Him we would not exist to be judged for our actions on earth. He has set the ball in motion.

By the way, please God, add "thou shall not hold slaves" in the list of commandments. Just to make it clear. There is nothing wrong with 11 commandements and I am sure that Your power to divinely inspire scriptures did not sedate with the years.

No need as their is only the need for just one commandment, that is, to love one another. If we could accomplish that one commandment then slaves would have never been a consideration to humanity.

Thank you Jesus for inspiring Sweden to allow gay marriages and adoptions of children by gay couples, via the influence of your wonderful morality on our culture. With support of your church, as well. Where would we be without You now? Probably still discriminating those people.

To disagree is not to discriminate. Jesus would not condemn it and sanction it together. That would make Him a hypocrite, but He was perfect, having no hypocrisy.

The scripture speak of this. It is all to prevalent in today's society. There will be those who call evil good because the learned of us deceive them and lead them down into paths of unrighteousness. Example, Our media tell us that "AIDS is not specific to gays" yet the evidence is to the contrary. Brainwashing and propaganda.

• What sorrow for those who say that evil is good and good is evil (or that sexual perversion is wholesome and good even though it's fruits are vile and rancid), that dark is light and light is dark, that bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter. What sorrow for those who are wise in their own eyes and think themselves so clever. What sorrow for those who are heroes at drinking wine and boast about all the alcohol they can hold. They take bribes to let the wicked go free, and they punish the innocent. Therefore, just as fire licks up stubble and dry grass shrivels in the flame, so their roots will rot and their flowers wither. For they have rejected the law of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies; they have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. (Isaiah 5:20-24 NLT)

We should not be surprised when we see that which is wrong being pedalled as righteousness. We were warned 2000 years ago so we have had plenty of time to get used to it.

 

[viole]

I am sure that some are, however, what they are today is the result of their history and religion. They are reaping good fruit as a result of their beliefs. Both Shinto and Buddhism are religions that are both passive and acquiescent in nature creating a civilised society. Would that have the same effect if their history was full of immoral tyrants? No, it would not, therefore, their lack of immorality is the result of the religions they follow.

I decided to cherry pick this segment of your post, because it addresses a lot of the rest.

Do you realize you are making my case? If the morality of Japaneses derives from the religion they follow, then we can conclude that it is the belief important, not the actual existence of the gods they believe in. Since I make the assumption that you do not believe that those gods exist.

And this could also do away nicely with the importance of belief in Jesus as God, since they do not believe in Jesus as God and, by your own admission, they managed to develop a moral code, anyway.

So, how is the actual existence of Jesus important, if not even the simple belief in Him appears to be a necessary condition for morality?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Willamena]

I actually rather have a conversation about this because I'd like to know how it makes sense to have on god "running the company" when you can be a team. Just like on earth. Some people like communism others like democracy. If we were perfect, I rather have democracy. How does it make sense, in human terms, to follow only one man? That's like saying I rather learn from my mother even though my father is my parent as well.

I don't understand that.

--

Interdependence is more than one person who are reliant on each other. That's different than team work where we work with each other. Also, the spirits are not supporting each other (relying on each other) but are having an inter-connection with people on earth.

ALSO (I didn't mean to scream/its an edit) How is interdependence a weakness? The gods aren't interdependent on each other. However, if you told that to someone in an AA meeting, that wouldn't work well.

Once the walls that divide one "thing" from another come down (the realization of our dependency on word-concepts to be the world), there is no building them back up. Well, unless you get amnesia and have to start language over from scratch.

For some people, those walls coming down is a path to realization of "god." With nothing to divide god (no words adequate to separate god from all other things, i.e.ineffible), there is only god. Monotheism.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Yeah, I may be worshiping Krishna instead of Shiva and Shiva will see no problem with that. He will have his own worshipers who will not be worshiping Krishna. Some, instead will be worshiping the Mother Goddess. None will disrespect the God/Goddess of others. That is the general pattern in Hinduism. I do not worship any but disrespect none.

Right, but I don't think Hindus have done a significantly better job at avoiding violence and cruelty than most every other group..

 

[Serenity7855]

I decided to cherry pick this segment of your post, because it addresses a lot of the rest.

Do you realize you are making my case?

I am not really making your case for you, in as much as I am just agreeing with certain aspects of it. But let me clarify what I agree with, which might surprise you. I agree with you that God is no longer necessary in our moral decisions and lifestyle. He never really was. He just lit the touch paper and stood back. It is entirely our prerogative and freedom to choose as to whether we adhere to His moral code or flout it. We will then be judged accordingly. It is my belief that God set the bar at the onset of our cognizant conscious awareness. From then on we were to be held accountable for our sins of omission and commision, to be proven herewith to see if we can live a Christ centred life until the end of our mortality.

Where God was an essential factor in this mortal probation was by His introduction of moral values and principles. When Adam and Eve roamed the Garden of Eden, they were perfect in form and spirit. They knew not that they were naked. When they partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is when they became aware of accountability, sin, opposition in all things. It was at the exact point when Adam sunk His teeth into the fruit that Good and Evil entered the world. When the fall took place they became imperfect mortals knowing right from wrong and were ashamed because they were naked.

The purpose of mortal life for the children of God is to provide the experiences needed “to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life.” We progress by making choices, by which we are tested to show that we will keep God’s commandments. To be tested, we must have the agency to choose between alternatives. To provide alternatives on which to exercise our agency, we must have opposition.

If the morality of Japaneses derives from the religion they follow, then we can conclude that it is the belief important, not the actual existence of the gods they believe in. Since I make the assumption that you do not believe that those gods exist.

All religions had their beginnings from the fall of mankind. All mankind had the Law written on their hearts.

And this could also do away nicely with the importance of belief in Jesus as God, since they do not believe in Jesus as God and, by your own admission, they managed to develop a moral code, anyway.

I do not believe that Jesus is God. It is an irrational proposition that has not been properly reasoned out. I believe that they are two separate and distinctive individuals who act independent of each other yet the share the same purpose. To believe otherwise makes a mockery of God and His word

Without God we would not know the difference between right and wrong, natural and unnatural sexual encounters, lust and love. That moral code is the result of thousands of years of parental influence, passed down generation by generation. But more than that, God said that "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. It became a part of our very nature and intellect when Adam succumbed to Eve and partook of the forbidden fruit. We need to praise Eve for what she done and not berate her for it. She was responsible for all of this.

So, how is the actual existence of Jesus important, if not even the simple belief in Him appears to be a necessary condition for morality?

In order for use to believe in a moral code given to us by God you have to first believe in the existence of a God who created it. One cannot exist without the other. The existence of Jesus was to testify of His father and to fulfil the Mosaic law by introducing the Abrahamic Covenant, which was accomplished during the beatitudes. The moral code had been around for some 4,000 years prior to the arrival of Jesus. Although Jesus testified of His father His mission was very much a multifaceted one, however, the law had been in existence for quite some time when He arrived. It was an essential factor in the success of the plan of salvation that we all agreed to. Without it Adam and Eve would still be in the garden wondering why their genitalia are so different. The plan of salvation could not begin and none of us would be here today debating whether God exists or no.

I am sorry if this is overly verbose. The creation is an extremely complex subject, probably due to it's symbolism. It fits together with an unbelievable perfection. I believe that it is on a par with the atonement and crucifixion. All had to be perfect.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Right, but I don't think Hindus have done a significantly better job at avoiding violence and cruelty than most every other group..

Well, people have various views. If that is yours, what can I say about it? We have no tradition of killing or tormenting people who do not accept Hinduism after hearing the 'good news'.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Well, people have various views. If that is yours, what can I say about it? We have no tradition of killing or tormenting people who do not accept Hinduism after hearing the 'good news'.

That may be, but being a Hindu hasn't stopped some Hindus from being violent or cruel towards others (including other Hindus).

 

[Aupmanyav]

There have not been many instances. Many a times Hindus are brought to that brink by other people. After all, there is a limit to how much we can take. We reserve the right to retaliate.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

There have not been many instances. Many a times Hindus are brought to that brink by other people. After all, there is a limit to how much we can take. We reserve the right to retaliate.

So India doesn't have any kind of problem with violent crime then? (sure, some of these crimes will be committed by non-Hindus, but a good proportion of them are likely committed by Hindus, given the demographics of India; I'm obviously aware that India isn't the only place where one finds Hindus, but just sticking to India to keep the argument a bit simpler).

 

[Aupmanyav]

Crime was not much of a problem in earlier years but it has increased after Indian independence and adoption of a democratic system which makes a whole caste the ruler. The middle caste hierarchy which has the largest numbers oppresses the lower castes. I think you are not much familiar with India or Indian politics.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Crime was not much of a problem in earlier years but it has increased after Indian independence and adoption of a democratic system which makes a whole caste the ruler. The middle caste hierarchy which has the largest numbers oppresses the lower castes.

I'm not particularly referring to the increase in crime over the last few decades (which is indeed an interesting phenomenon). Inter-caste cruelty/violence has been a problem for quite a while, though, stretching back quite a bit further. As has gender-based cruelty/violence. For me, these are both major crimes (and examples of cruelty/violence practiced by some Hindus). Neither of these are new things, and both have certain roots in some Hindu beliefs.

Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not trying to single either Hindu religions or India out here or to try to do the Hinduism vs Islaam thing that some Muslims will do. Muslims and Muslim countries don't do great either on the treatment of minorities front or the gender-based violence front. And these too have certain roots in some Islaamic beliefs. And indeed, many of the world's religions don't have a great record for treatment of girls/women or indeed those of other sexes/genders. I'm just challenging you on your earlier claim.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, 'Dharma' has deteriorated, and specially since Independence and rise of democracy. Democracy has its pros and Cons, USA is passing through that phase now.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You know, it depends on your definition of god. If there are multiple gods then who created them? I can suppose that there was one supreme being that was the beginning of the world as we know it.

If one god doesn't need a creator, why would multiple gods?

 

[1robin]

If there is only one god, then on what grounds, if any, can it be claimed there is only one god?

BONUS QUESTION: Are there any good arguments for the existence of multiple gods? If so, what are they?

Hello Sunstone, it's been a while.

This is actually very easy to respond to. We know there is only 1 God because God told us there was. Now if you want to ask how we know he told us that then that is fine but it is also a completely different debate.

Bonus: As far as I know there is no proof that there cannot be more than one God, but there are many lines of reasoning that suggest only one God exists and that multiple God's is unlikely but I will await clarification as to exactly what you are wanting as a response to your bonus question.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is actually very easy to respond to. We know there is only 1 God because God told us there was.

He did?

Do you mean he told you personally, or are you alluding to some passage from the Bible?

 

[1robin]

He did?

Do you mean he told you personally, or are you alluding to some passage from the Bible?

I was alluding to emphatic verses in the bible but even if I had meant he personally told me that is perfectly consistent with Biblical Doctrine as the Holy Spirit is said to be given to lead believers into all truth. Now again, if you actually want to claim that if God exists he could not possibly do what he and Christians say he can (communicate with us) then that is fine. However you need to post an argument to that effect, but I will have to tune in again tomorrow as I am out of time.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We Baha'is believe that God is a single entity. You can read more about it from this link, just scroll to the topic 'There is one God.

I think scientifically there would be proof also as life emanates from one single cell, molecule or atom or point not two.

Also all the major religions speak of only one reality.

http://www.bahai.org/documents/essays/momen-dr-moojan/god-bahaullah

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was alluding to emphatic verses in the bible

You mean like this one?

"For the LORD is a great God,
and a great King above all gods." (Psalms 95:3)

I know plenty of verses where God tells his people to worship him instead of all the other gods, but none where God says that no other gods exist.

Can you list some verses?