• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

"If two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you"

Shermana

Heretic

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hi!

I think that Jesus was quite clever about this!

Can any two believers 'agree' and ask for anything (the same thing!)? Maybe not?

I heard this report decades ago...... Another prophet (Bahaullah) was once challenged do produce a miracle, and promised that he would, if his accusers could agree on what he had to do. They could not come to an agreement!

I know that that report is different, but it has the same 'character' about it.

All the best.....
 
Matthew 18:19 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.


So according to Matthew 18:19, whenever two (or more) believers agree and ask for anything, Jesus says it WILL be done.

What's the explanation then for all the times such prayers go unanswered among these believers?

James 4:3: Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Conståntine;3194639 said:
James 4:3: Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

So can we conclude that whenever Christians pray for something and they don't get it that it's because they're praying for something to placate their lusts by this logic?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is strange but true that someone might ask God for something along with many others in the Name of The Lord but their heart wants what they are asking for to prove to the World that they are right.

The will of God accomplished is for the Glory of God, not for the glory of man.
 
So can we conclude that whenever Christians pray for something and they don't get it that it's because they're praying for something to placate their lusts by this logic?

It's possible. It's also possible that it may not be in the best interest of God despite good intentions, as was the case with David wanting to build a temple for the Lord.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Matthew 18:19 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.


So according to Matthew 18:19, whenever two (or more) believers agree and ask for anything, Jesus says it WILL be done.

What's the explanation then for all the times such prayers go unanswered among these believers?


the surrounding verse helps clarify what is being said

18 “Truly I say to YOU men, Whatever things YOU may bind on earth will be things bound in heaven, and whatever things YOU may loose on earth will be things loosed in heaven. 19 Again I truly say to YOU, If two of YOU on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them due to my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”


Jesus is saying that if two of his apostles have come to a unanimous decision, its because that decision has already been made in heaven.

WT states:
the things that are ‘bound’ or ‘loosed’ on earth are things that have already been ‘bound’ or ‘loosed’ in heaven. The Greek words here used literally mean “having been bound” or “having been loosed,” which are in the perfect tense, passive voice. In other words, the tense suggests that the action had already been decided upon in heaven and is merely reflected in what is subsequently decided upon on earth by those who wish to reflect “wisdom from above.” (Jas. 3:17, 18) “Bound” would refer to being found guilty for punishment; “loosed” would refer to being found innocent.
These words of Jesus follow his discussion of the procedure that should be followed if a servant of God has a major “fault” to take up with his brother. (Verses 15-17) This could lead to the charge being taken up by the “congregation” in that the matter would come before the responsible brothers in the congregation for review and judgment. If the charge was proved true and sufficiently gross, with the individual showing no repentance, the result would be that this one would be considered as “a man of the nations and as a tax collector.” He would be disfellowshiped. All of this, of course, would require deliberations. And these deliberations are what Jesus had reference to in verses 18 to 20.

Since holy spirit would come to Jesus’ disciples through Jesus from and after Pentecost 33 C.E., it could be said that “where there are two or three gathered together in my [Jesus’] name, there I am in their midst.” All gathered to review the matter would need to be alert to the leadings of Jehovah’s spirit. Particularly would they need to weigh matters carefully in the light of his Word, including the instructions and teachings of Jesus, to see what Jehovah’s mind would be on the alleged conduct and what should be done if the evidence proves the charge as being true and the individual does not repent. Of course, those weighing matters impartially might find the accused innocent, or there may be insufficient evidence.

In the first century, Christians had miraculous operations of Jehovah’s holy spirit in some matters of judgment, such as in the judgment of Ananias and Sapphira. (Acts 5:1-11; 1 Cor. 12:4-11) After miraculous gifts of the spirit ceased with the death of the apostles, Christians have not expected direct miraculous indications from heaven as to how a matter should be decided. (1 Cor. 13:8-13) Nevertheless, we still have what Jehovah’s Word says about proper conduct and how matters should be decided. We can, in effect, determine what has already been decided on a matter in the heavens. Admittedly, due to human imperfections, mistakes in judgment are made at times, but this only emphasizes even more the need to adhere closely to the instructions in Jehovah’s Word in handling matters so as to be assured that what is decided is what has already been decided in heaven.


Its really referring to congregational decisions made by the apostles such as judicial matters and the like.
 
Last edited:

Shermana

Heretic
Conståntine;3194675 said:
It's possible. It's also possible that it may not be in the best interest of God despite good intentions, as was the case with David wanting to build a temple for the Lord.

So what would be an example of something Christians could get together to pray and ask for that would be granted as Jesus confirmed it would be?
 

Shermana

Heretic
the surrounding verse helps clarify what is being said

18 “Truly I say to YOU men, Whatever things YOU may bind on earth will be things bound in heaven, and whatever things YOU may loose on earth will be things loosed in heaven. 19 Again I truly say to YOU, If two of YOU on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them due to my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”


Jesus is saying that if two of his apostles have come to a unanimous decision, its because that decision has already been made in heaven.

WT states:
the things that are ‘bound’ or ‘loosed’ on earth are things that have already been ‘bound’ or ‘loosed’ in heaven. The Greek words here used literally mean “having been bound” or “having been loosed,” which are in the perfect tense, passive voice. In other words, the tense suggests that the action had already been decided upon in heaven and is merely reflected in what is subsequently decided upon on earth by those who wish to reflect “wisdom from above.” (Jas. 3:17, 18) “Bound” would refer to being found guilty for punishment; “loosed” would refer to being found innocent.
These words of Jesus follow his discussion of the procedure that should be followed if a servant of God has a major “fault” to take up with his brother. (Verses 15-17) This could lead to the charge being taken up by the “congregation” in that the matter would come before the responsible brothers in the congregation for review and judgment. If the charge was proved true and sufficiently gross, with the individual showing no repentance, the result would be that this one would be considered as “a man of the nations and as a tax collector.” He would be disfellowshiped. All of this, of course, would require deliberations. And these deliberations are what Jesus had reference to in verses 18 to 20.

Since holy spirit would come to Jesus’ disciples through Jesus from and after Pentecost 33 C.E., it could be said that “where there are two or three gathered together in my [Jesus’] name, there I am in their midst.” All gathered to review the matter would need to be alert to the leadings of Jehovah’s spirit. Particularly would they need to weigh matters carefully in the light of his Word, including the instructions and teachings of Jesus, to see what Jehovah’s mind would be on the alleged conduct and what should be done if the evidence proves the charge as being true and the individual does not repent. Of course, those weighing matters impartially might find the accused innocent, or there may be insufficient evidence.

In the first century, Christians had miraculous operations of Jehovah’s holy spirit in some matters of judgment, such as in the judgment of Ananias and Sapphira. (Acts 5:1-11; 1 Cor. 12:4-11) After miraculous gifts of the spirit ceased with the death of the apostles, Christians have not expected direct miraculous indications from heaven as to how a matter should be decided. (1 Cor. 13:8-13) Nevertheless, we still have what Jehovah’s Word says about proper conduct and how matters should be decided. We can, in effect, determine what has already been decided on a matter in the heavens. Admittedly, due to human imperfections, mistakes in judgment are made at times, but this only emphasizes even more the need to adhere closely to the instructions in Jehovah’s Word in handling matters so as to be assured that what is decided is what has already been decided in heaven.


Its really referring to congregational decisions made by the apostles such as judicial matters and the like.

Why should we assume that it only applies to the apostles? The word "You" can also be taken to mean that the Sermon on the mount applies only to his audience there. Can we assume then that other things he teaches to the apostles only apply to them and not others? Are you saying this didn't go into effect until after Jesus died?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Why should we assume that it only applies to the apostles? The word "You" can also be taken to mean that the Sermon on the mount applies only to his audience there. Can we assume then that other things he teaches to the apostles only apply to them and not others? Are you saying this didn't go into effect until after Jesus died?

because Jesus was speaking to his chosen apostles when he said that... it wasnt a general teaching he gave to all his followers at that time. So it would apply to those who were leading the congregations.
 

Shermana

Heretic
because Jesus was speaking to his chosen apostles when he said that... it wasnt a general teaching he gave to all his followers at that time. So it would apply to those who were leading the congregations.

So in that case, we can look at all the other teachings he said directly to his disciples and assume it only applies to them too?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How is what is for the little flock and what is for the great crowd and what is for both distinguishable?
 

Shermana

Heretic
it depends on the context

In the verse you've quoted in the OP, the context shows that Jesus is speaking to his apostles with regard to congregational matters.

And explain how you derive this context in this episode but not another.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
And explain how you derive this context in this episode but not another.

because there are surrounding verses which add to the information in the verse you gave in the OP. when you compare all the verses together relating to the subject, you get a clearer picture.

Matthew 16:18 Also, I say to you, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation, and the gates of Ha′des will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you may bind on earth will be the thing bound in the heavens, and whatever you may loose on earth will be the thing loosed in the heavens.

Later, what Jesus had told Peter above was repeated to the other disciples. The context shows that the authority which Christ delegated to the disciples was the authority over settling problems between individual believers and keeping the congregation clean of unrepentant evildoers.

Matthew 18:15 “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.
18 “Truly I say to YOU men, Whatever things YOU may bind on earth will be things bound in heaven, and whatever things YOU may loose on earth will be things loosed in heaven. 19 Again I truly say to YOU, If two of YOU on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them due to my Father in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
How is what is for the little flock and what is for the great crowd and what is for both distinguishable?

the context should be of help

Who is this verse applying to?
“For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 CORINTHIANS 15:52.
 

Shermana

Heretic
the context should be of help

Who is this verse applying to?
“For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 CORINTHIANS 15:52.

Can anyone else explain to me how this is supposed to help define the context of when Jesus is speaking to his disciples that it only applies to them and when speaking in general? I don't see how quoting Paul writing to his audience has anything to do with it.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Can anyone else explain to me how this is supposed to help define the context of when Jesus is speaking to his disciples that it only applies to them and when speaking in general? I don't see how quoting Paul writing to his audience has anything to do with it.

Nor does it. It cannot.......

Paul was no prophet. No had he been a disciple.

I suppose he could report something that a disciple had (later) told him. That's about it. It is very interesting (to me) that in a high % of discussions or debates, as soon as (some) christians seem to be having difficulties with their points of view that they race to Acts, or Paul's letters, of the convert John's writings in order to gain back ground.

This is very sad, because Jesus's teachings as reported in Matthew and Mark can stand better.... by themselves.

I believe that Jesus simply figured, correctly, that any two people have great difficulty in 'full accord agreement', simply because their focus is upon self. I don't think that's a cop-out, but would respect your disagreement there.
 
Top