If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe the dynamics is a misunderstanding of yours and not mine.

I took the opportunity to change your mind by supplying some material that shows why it is worth investigating.

No, you didn't. You contradicted yourself many times over several pages, then copy-pasted some links.

It is exactly the choice I had, is the choice you face. I rejected the faith as soon as I had heard about it from my wife. Nothing she could have offered verbally to me made me look at it for a couple of months.

One day she left a book besides my bed and said there it is, read it or do not read it, it's your choice. I thank God that I was given that choice by my wife.

So you get the same chance, take the opportunity or do not, ball in your court, no use sending that ball back, it's not a game I am playing.

This was the book I read.

https://bahairesources.com/p/god-loves-laughter/

Regards Tony

It makes sense to try out things that your wife asks you to; that relationship is important.

However, I would bet good money that you haven't given the same care and attention to every JW or Hare Krishna tract you've been handed. Our relationship is like that one: the relationship between a random proselytizer and his mark, not the relationship between spouses.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I would assume you are not in the frame of mind to ask for a proof.

You are happy with your status quo, I am not here to change your choice.

Regards Tony

I'll never be "in the frame of mind" for your "proof" as all you'll do is post some laborious word salad from Mirza that's supposed to be impressive, I guess, and that's no proof of anything at all. I have my own experiences that I go with, and my religion is the reflection of truth as I know it (not just read about it).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, you didn't. You contradicted yourself many times over several pages, then copy-pasted some links.



It makes sense to try out things that your wife asks you to; that relationship is important.

However, I would bet good money that you haven't given the same care and attention to every JW or Hare Krishna tract you've been handed. Our relationship is like that one: the relationship between a random proselytizer and his mark, not the relationship between spouses.

You would be wrong, you should get used to that, we all make many mistakes. I do not bet, but you would have lost

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'll never be "in the frame of mind" for your "proof" as all you'll do is post some laborious word salad from Mirza that's supposed to be impressive, I guess, and that's no proof of anything at all. I have my own experiences that I go with, and my religion is the reflection of truth as I know it (not just read about it).

Great, stay with it, thanks for joining the OP, albeit for a brief moment. It all helps make the truth shine as bright as the noon day sun.

Regards Tony

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I personally see that no other effort will acheive that aim

The Abrahamic religions have no answers. They are NOT religions of unity, peace, or love as they all clam. They have existed on the earth for millennia and have done little to promote unity and much to cause division. It is only the humanist program that has made any progress in that direction. It's why we have Western democracies, why slavery has been abolished, why we have freedom of and from religion, why we have a UN and NATO. All of this proceeded from Enlightenment values of tolerance, equality, empathy, reason, human development, and human opportunity.

In the States, with which I am most familiar, humanists are pushing back against the Christians with their Handmaid's Tale vision for America, and its book banning and LGBTQ+ marginalization.

So, no, I don't look to these religions including yours to bring people together.

your accusations will always be water off a ducks back.

What accusations? Are you referring to "You are not a critical thinker. You're a faith-based thinker" and/or "You have your own game: spouting feckless platitudes about peace and unity"? Those were responses to, "Luck is not needed. Critical thinking is" and "I have no need to play these games."

Sorry, but you're not a critical thinker. If you were, you'd realize how ineffective your program for world unity is and how much more humanism has done toward that end. The evidence is all around you. But you don't notice and instead keep repeating that you have answers and posting empty words.

If you disagree, feel free to make your case.

I took the opportunity to change your mind by supplying some material that shows why it is worth investigating.

We don't need to look at any more of your material. You and other Baha'is have posted thousands of words from your messenger, and all I see there is one long flowery exhortation to be pious written in pseudo-biblical English in the KJV tradition.

More telling than the words of the messenger are the kinds of people this religion generates. Regulars on RF have seen about a half dozen adherents over several years. We see their demeanor, their values, their common culture, and their beliefs about what is true. That's not appealing to me and is apparently unappealing to most others posting here and most of the world. I already have a worldview that works for me, and I have no need for religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You would be wrong, you should get used to that, we all make many mistakes. I do not bet, but you would have lost

Regards Tony

But you understand my point, right?

The belief system you're selling isn't the only game in town. Based on a cursory look at all three, you're more credible than the "Hollow Earth" people and less credible than the Moon Landing Hoaxers.

(Though if the irrational arguments you've given in this thread are the best the Baha'i Faith can offer, you may be dropping down the list quite a bit)

I'm not going to put a ton of effort into investigating the Baha'i Faith until after I've put a ton of effort into investment every claim and belief system that's ahead of the Baha'i Faith on the priority list... unless you can give me something to justify moving your claims up the list.

... and since this is the "what should I investigate?" list, your tactic of telling me to just investigate your claims for myself does nothing to move you up.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm not going to put a ton of effort into investigating the Baha'i Faith until after I've put a ton of effort into investment every claim and belief system that's ahead of the Baha'i Faith on the priority list... unless you can give me something to justify moving your claims up the list.

... and since this is the "what should I investigate?" list, your tactic of telling me to just investigate your claims for myself does nothing to move you up.

Your choice. How you are influenced about what Baha'u'llah offered is entirely up to you.

All I needed to do was made you aware of what is all available, which has been done in the Many OP's that had that as the subject matter . I can only offer to you that the Message applicable to this age, that contains the path to unity and peace, was given by Baha'u'llah.

The way you list your priorities can take that advice, or leave it. Better still, get back on track, ask it of God with a single heartfelt proof of Baha’u’llah, or any other priority on your list.

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

If that is a personal choice one wants to make, they have free will to do so.

There is the best reason to beleive in God though, as God gives us the path to goodness and peace via the Messengers, all the proof of God is via those Messengers.

Regards Tony

Direct evidence and direct experience would obviously be the best reason. A religion that claims that evidence of God is 2nd hands teachings of a human is not a good reason for belief at all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Direct evidence and direct experience would obviously be the best reason. A religion that claims that evidence of God is 2nd hands teachings of a human is not a good reason for belief at all.

I see the connection is first hand. It is between us and the Messengers, who are all we can know of God, they are the "Self of God", the source and Spiritual foundation of creation.

Even creation operates in this manner. The Sun gives the light that sustains creation.

God (Sun) gives the Messenger (Light) that sustains humanity (creation)

When we embrace the light, we live, if we veil ourselves from the light, we die. We live by the Word given by God, via the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

However, I would bet good money that you haven't given the same care and attention to every JW or Hare Krishna tract you've been handed. Our relationship is like that one: the relationship between a random proselytizer and his mark, not the relationship between spouses.

The belief system you're selling isn't the only game in town.

That's the thing... How many people out there have "found" the truth and want to share with us. Even Baha'is reject all of them but one... theirs.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the connection is first hand. It is between us and the Messengers, who are all we can know of God, they are the "Self of God", the source and Spiritual foundation of creation.

I'm wondering why you Baha'is don't use "manifestations" instead of "messengers"? But even that name I don't think is accurate. For those that follow Krishna, I think they see him as God or an incarnation of the God Vishnu. So, going by Krishna's teachings, what do we know about God?

Then there's the Buddha, I don't know, but I was under the impression that he taught that his followers could all become like he was... enlightened. And what did he teach about God?

The Baha'i Faith has an interpretation of God and all these prophets, Messiahs, incarnations and enlightened ones that makes them all one. It makes them all "manifestations" of the one God whom Baha'is claim is real. But we're not going to get the same understanding about God from any of the other religions as the one we get from the Baha'i Faith.

It is your beliefs about God and truth. You like it. You believe it. And you preach it to everyone as if it is the one real truth. The problem with that is... You don't really accept and believe that people in the other religions have the truth. Baha'is believe all of them are off on some of the things they believe. So, the real only source for absolute truth isn't found in any other religion except the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's the thing... How many people out there have "found" the truth and want to share with us. Even Baha'is reject all of them but one... theirs.

Some very religious people out there have not found the truth, but they have discovered what works for them. That, if you look at it more closely, and analyze the actions, the logic, etc. is one HUGE differences (of many) between paradigms. I sure hope you're not projecting that idea (as others are prone to do) onto all the faiths of mankind on this planet.

 

[sayak83]

I see the connection is first hand. It is between us and the Messengers, who are all we can know of God, they are the "Self of God", the source and Spiritual foundation of creation.

Even creation operates in this manner. The Sun gives the light that sustains creation.

God (Sun) gives the Messenger (Light) that sustains humanity (creation)

When we embrace the light, we live, if we veil ourselves from the light, we die. We live by the Word given by God, via the Messengers.

Regards Tony

I prefer (and have) a direct connection with the Ultimate. That and/or publicly available evidence of God or the divine is far more convincing for most, in my opinion.
Your example is also off. The Sun that gives the light is directly observable to all. One does not have to read a book saying there is something called the Sun. You can see it, right there in the sky. There is zero reason for God to be not directly perceivable in a similar manner.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's the thing... How many people out there have "found" the truth and want to share with us. Even Baha'is reject all of them but one... theirs.

A quandary for us all CG. The same thing said when Jesus came, the same thing said when Muhammad came and now the same thing said by the masses when the Bab and Baha'u'llah came.

The Truth, given by God, when God so chooses, some will have embraced it and be sharing it, knowing it is what mankind needs, many will flat out say they are wrong and continue to offer that negitive response without any real effort to search the evidences and proofs given that would confirm that what they beleive, has been validated in the New Messenger.

That's Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Some very religious people out there have not found the truth, but they have discovered what works for them. That, if you look at it more closely, and analyze the actions, the logic, etc. is one HUGE differences (of many) between paradigms. I sure hope you're not projecting that idea (as others are prone to do) onto all the faiths of mankind on this planet.

That's why I said, "found" the truth. I'm talking about proselytizing religions that make it an important part of what their followers must do... go out and teach the faith and spread the word.

Tony's probably a nice guy in person, but here on the forum, he's a proselytizer. He is out promoting his beliefs as the only true ones. Christian teachings aren't true, Muslim teachings aren't true. What any of the various Hindu sects teach isn't true to a Baha'i. Their purpose is to get people to "see" the light. Their religion was the truth. It had the truth. But now the truth is found in only one religion, the Baha'i Faith.

Sorry about generalizing so badly that I made it sound like I included you and your beliefs. But, you know, I do believe that even the people in proselytizing religion have found a truth that works for them. And out of all of them, I really do think the Baha'i Faith isn't all that bad.

But is it all that it claims to be? That their prophet is Kalki, Maitreya, the Messiah, the Christ, the Mahdi and the rest? They are claiming to be the one and only way to fix the world and bring peace and unity. And, ultimately, that means following their rules and following their authority. Give any religion that kind of power, and I don't think things are going to end up all that loving and peaceful.

It's nice to hear from you.

 

[sayak83]

A quandary for us all CG. The same thing said when Jesus came, the same thing said when Muhammad came and now the same thing said by the masses when the Bab and Baha'u'llah came.

The Truth, given by God, when God so chooses, some will have embraced it and be sharing it, knowing it is what mankind needs, many will flat out say they are wrong and continue to offer that negitive response without any real effort to search the evidences and proofs given that would confirm that what they beleive, has been validated in the New Messenger.

That's Faith.

Regards Tony

Why would anyone make an effort to search each and every one of the 500 new religious movements that had started in the last 200 years for the "truth"?
List of new religious movements - Wikipedia
Maybe the true religion is the Fellowship of the ISIS??
Fellowship of Isis - Wikipedia
Or maybe the true messenger of God is Neem Karoli Baba
Neem Karoli Baba - Wikipedia
Your basic premise that one should go around searching for that "one true messenger of God" is impractical and unworkable, over and above your unjustified and unwarranted assumption that God irrationally restricts Itself to communicate with one and only one person...the Messenger....once every 1000 years or so.
The entire thing is just too difficult to swallow.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why would anyone make an effort to search each and every one of the 500 new religious movements that had started in the last 200 years for the "truth"?
List of new religious movements - Wikipedia
Maybe the true religion is the Fellowship of the ISIS??
Fellowship of Isis - Wikipedia
Or maybe the true messenger of God is Neem Karoli Baba
Neem Karoli Baba - Wikipedia
Your basic premise that one should go around searching for that "one true messenger of God" is impractical and unworkable, over and above your unjustified and unwarranted assumption that God irrationally restricts Itself to communicate with one and only one person...the Messenger....once every 1000 years or so.
The entire thing is just too difficult to swallow.

The vast majority can be easily sorted. Many will be piggybacking of the scriptures of a previous Messenger/s. A true Messenger brings thier own Book that God has given them.

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

The vast majority can be easily sorted. Many will be piggybacking of the scriptures of a previous Messenger/s. A true Messenger brings thier own Book that God has given them.

Regards Tony

Oh...new arbitrary condition...they have to have written a book.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh...new arbitrary condition...they have to have written a book.

Every Messenger brings God's Word, that is why they are Prophets/ Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

Every Messenger brings God's Word, that is why they are Prophets/ Messengers.

Regards Tony

Jesus did not write anything. And who said there must be prophets or messengers? Maybe religions claiming that there must be prophets and messengers are false and religions claiming that God communicates directly without any messengers are true? Or religions claiming there are many gods are true. Or ideologies claiming that there are no gods at all are true. According to you, one has to explore each of the infinitely many claims that had been made or are being made in depth before coming to a conclusion, correct?