If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.

[CG Didymus]

It is the Manifestation that can verify that, only to those that look at the evidence and proofs of their life.

Regards Tony

And I do agree with you about this too. Religious people take things like the Bible and use them as proof. Baha'is take the life, character and writings of Baha'u'llah and use them as proof that God is real and that he was God's messenger for today.

The Bible becomes fact. The Baha'i writings become fact. But that only works for believers. And to non-believers there are things in those writings that don't sound very factual.

Which makes TB's position more honest... It can't be proven to be factual.

The best a religious person can say is that they take it on faith. It sounds true. When it is believed, it feels true. So, it becomes true for the believer. Trouble is... everybody in every religion believe something different. And it all seems true to them.

So, non-believers ask for proof and facts, and there aren't any.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This doesn't really answer the question. What I'm looking for is a specific set of claims about Baha'u'llah (or anyone else), then a chain of logical arguments that builds on those premises, ending with "therefore God must exist."

Can you do this?

Do something you would need to do?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which makes TB's position more honest... It can't be proven to be factua

My position is that it can be proven to be factual, only when we make the effort to evaluate the evidence and proof provided.

I have the optimism that every person has that capacity and can choose to be just.

Regards Tony

 

[Jedster]

Should we then not reject any religion? Even those that worship different Gods? Should we not reject the claims of science which can not be supported?

Doesn't truth require discernment. We have to judge. Yes, sometimes we will be wrong in our judgement but if we stop questioning, we won't know that.

What I would ask of God to show their divinity?
I would ask God to destroy creation and then bring it back. Then at least I'd have to accept their role as creator.

Many moons ago I was an orthodox Jew and I remember a Midrash that discuses this. You may find it of interest.

Proof that Hashem recreates the world every day

It says in the first blessing before the morning Shema that Hashem renews, in His goodness, every day, the work of Creation, as it says: "To the One Who creates great luminaries, for eternal is ...

judaism.stackexchange.com

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, non-believers ask for proof and facts, and there aren't any.

Who did they ask it from?

Regards Tony

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

If that is a personal choice one wants to make, they have free will to do so.

No for the experienced critically thinking empiricist. Such a person no longer has the ability to choose to believe something and then believe it. You might consider that a defect. I consider it a virtue.

There is the best reason to beleive in God though, as God gives us the path to goodness and peace via the Messengers, all the proof of God is via those Messengers.

Most good people don't believe in your god.

You probably consider yourself a good person, and you might be, but achieving moral excellence doesn't require a religion, and Abrahamic religions create impediments to maximal goodness with their bigotries and theocratic tendencies.

For example, Baha's, like Jews, Christians, and Muslims who take their scriptures seriously, are homophobic. The Christian church in America has subjugated pregnant women to its will with the help of the theocratic Christians on the Supreme Court, has attempted to reduce access to contraception and IVF, and has waged a cultural war against LGBTQ+. The Jews and Muslims are engaged in a cruel and brutal war.

Atheistic humanists outperform them all morally speaking if the Golden Rule is more than just lip service. You "win" if the standard is blind obedience to irrational and destructive ancient moral dicta.

It is the Manifestation that can verify that, only to those that look at the evidence and proofs of their life.

Empty words. You write, but it says nothing.

I notice you ignored everything I wrote to you and just dismissed it with a handwave but no comment or acknowledgement. I assume that you either didn't read it, didn't understand it, or are unwilling to address it for other reasons. None of those help you.

You like that holy-speak style, which is indistinguishable from Chinese fortune cookie fortunes and horoscopes - vague and sounding more profound than they actually are - but often contain older forms English with words like sayeth and thou, and exclamations like "Holy! O so holy!"

Then you have not looked at that life and have no knowledge of it, or have obtained a very superficial knowledge of that life.

What's there to know? Your guy walked the land preaching. Did he do anything you consider transcendent or superhuman? If you're going to say write out or speak his message, that's mundane. People that can and do do that are plentiful in human history.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I offer scripture guidance on these matters, and it is only those passages that now speak to us, the Word given by Jesus as Christ are given of God.

God spoke to the Prophets, Messengers, one of which was Jesus and not to ordinary man, that is the essence of all past Revelations.

So if we ask proof from Jesus, Jesus has already offered.

John 5:37 "And the Father Himself, who hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.."

Are you claiming the station of one who is Annointed of God and heard his voice?

We only hear God if we embrace the Messengers, and when Jesus gave the Message we hear God through Jesus.

John 5:38 "And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not."

Regards Tony

Believe me, I have zero interest in your preaching or twisting of other religion's scriptures and concepts. I've seen enough of that nonsense over the years. From what I can see of Baha'is and their beliefs on this board (which is the only place I've ever encountered this religion at all), most seem to be near-atheists or deists, barely believing in God. That's not appealing or anything true to the many countless people around the world who do have plenty of interactions and relationships with their deities. It seems to mostly attract former hippie/leftist types with its "world unity" and "world peace" talk, which is straight from the '60s and '70s (which further explains the demographics of Baha'is I'm seeing on this board, but I digress).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, the mystery... did it really happen? In that other thread it is being question whether or not there were eyewitnesses that wrote the Gospels. When it comes to the virgin birth the two writers that wrote about it, I think, for sure weren't eyewitnesses. So, where did they get this story? And why do their stories differ? They had different sources? There were different traditions being told?

The key is as to what you get out of it CG. I personally see the virgin birth as a metaphor for the pre-existing Spirit that Jesus was Annointed with.

No matter how the birth happens, tgis Metaphor allows is to see that the man born as Jesus was given gy God as the "Son". The realisation that though born from the womb, Jesus was a chosen "Son of God" who is not born of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

That's more than logical, given our scientific knowledge is it not?

Each person has to see it in their own frame of reference.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do something you would need to do?

Translating your vague statements into a coherent argument is something something I'm trying to do, but I can only get so far without your help. You haven’t given me much to work with so far.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Translating your vague statements into a coherent argument is something something I'm trying to do, but I can only get so far without your help. You haven’t given me much to work with so far.

The task is made very easy for us in the way of information in this age. Remember this OP is about our willingness to ask. Not us demanding from others any proof, but for us to gather the proofs and evidence and judge them and if we have a desire to see a proof, we can ask.

If you are asking me to give the sources of the most reliable and accurate information, I can give the material I would suggest.

The Dawnbreakers is an epic containing much of the history.

Dawnbreakers

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Believe me, I have zero interest in your preaching or twisting of other religion's scriptures and concepts. I've seen enough of that nonsense over the years. From what I can see of Baha'is and their beliefs on this board (which is the only place I've ever encountered this religion at all), most seem to be near-atheists or deists, barely believing in God. That's not appealing or anything true to the many countless people around the world who do have plenty of interactions and relationships with their deities. It seems to mostly attract former hippie/leftist types with its "world unity" and "world peace" talk, which is straight from the '60s and '70s (which further explains the demographics of Baha'is I'm seeing on this board, but I digress).

I would assume you are not in the frame of mind to ask for a proof.

You are happy with your status quo, I am not here to change your choice.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I notice you ignored everything I wrote to you and just dismissed it with a handwave but no comment or acknowledgement. I assume that you either didn't read it, didn't understand it, or are unwilling to address it for other reasons. None of those help you.

I brushed over it, as most has nothing to do with the OP. You are just venting your status quo.

If a critical thinker does not have to ask a proof from God, then I wish you all the best in life. Go with what you know.

A Baha'i is no enemy to you, we will live in peace with all humanity as we have done so with the enemies of the Faith since the Law of Baha’u’llah was given that religious wars are not allowed.

Humanity as a whole now has to step up and outlaw nations breaching the boarders of other Nations and disarm for the sake of all humanity.

At least the Baha'i have given a path for a global civilization that treats all its citizens as one people on one planet, acknowledging that all have the right to education and a basic peaceful lifestyle. That path allows humanity to build that civilization with no compulsion in religion.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't verify that any of that has anything to do with a god.

That is true.

I doubt he does. What he said was, "If there is some god being that has a message for me then that god being can tell me about it itself. If it doesn't want to tell me itself I can only conclude that it must not be a very important message, because any god being worth it's salt would know that I'm not going to be convinced by some second hand claims made by people I'll never meet about the most powerful being that exists."

He's telling you that the evidence being offered isn't evidence of a deity to him, and that he would need more than that before believing.

Yes, I know that he is telling me that since we have posted back and forth for years.

You're saying that if your god hasn't done that, it's because it doesn't feel any need to. I'd say that that is one explanation,

I have said on more than one occasion that there are three logical possibilities.
In fact, I just said it last Tuesday on another thread: #145

If God exists God does not communicate directly to everyone, so that means that if God existed God would not communicate to everyone.

The only recourse that atheist had after that was God does not exist, which I agreed was congruent with logic.

Given what we see in this world, there are three mutually exclusive logical possibilities:

1) God exists and communicates via messengers (theist)
2) God exists but does not communicate to humans (deist)
3) God does not exist (atheist)

but even if one grants that possibility, he still should not believe in such a thing.

Whether or not he should believe in such a thing is up to him. Obviously he has decided not to.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I brushed over it

No, you didn't. There's no evidence you read it.

You are just venting your status quo.

I am rebutting you.

If a critical thinker does not have to ask a proof from God, then I wish you all the best in life.

What? More fortune cookies?

Humanity as a whole now has to step up and outlaw nations breaching the boarders of other Nations and disarm for the sake of all humanity.

Good luck with that. This is a nice illustration of how feckless what you call a plan actually is. It's just words, and you expect that people will respect them and carry them out. They won't.

At least the Baha'i have given a path for a global civilization

No. You have what Trump called a "concept of a plan," meaning that you have nothing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Good luck with that.

Luck is not needed. Critical thinking is. I have no need to play these games, if you have not noticed.

I give the advice I see have come from the Messengers and leave it up to others as to what they choose to do with it.

Regards Tony

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Luck is not needed. Critical thinking is.

You are not a critical thinker. You're a faith-based thinker.

I have no need to play these games

You have your own game: spouting feckless platitudes about peace and unity.

I give the advice I see have come from the Messengers and leave it up to others as to what they choose to do with it.

And you've seen how little they value it, yet you keep repeating it like next time might be different.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And you've seen how little they value it, yet you keep repeating it like next time might be different.

That is because, in the Message, the apathy people will show to Baha'u'llah and the given Message is foretold. How people will eventually embrace the Message will be a fruit of the Baha'i's perseverance in living and sharing that message, to all those that have and will eventually want to hear. This effort, though now appearing to be and being touted as fruitless, will soon fruit and bring about the realisation of the promisses given by God in that Message. Time is in our side.

This is no game, this is embracing our future for all humanity, others get to choose their path and if that path will bring about the unity of all humanity. I personally see that no other effort will acheive that aim, as that is also already a given piece of advice.

You have no idea of my background, nor the source of my thoughts, you are unable to judge me in any meaningful way, as I also am not able to judge you or any other person. Thus your accusations will always be water off a ducks back. Maybe you can consider that in the future when you decide to go personal. The accusations are absolutely nothing to me, they bring a smile of thanks, you offer me a great bounty in doing so.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The task is made very easy for us in the way of information in this age. Remember this OP is about our willingness to ask. Not us demanding from others any proof, but for us to gather the proofs and evidence and judge them and if we have a desire to see a proof, we can ask.

If you are asking me to give the sources of the most reliable and accurate information, I can give the material I would suggest.

The Dawnbreakers is an epic containing much of the history.

Dawnbreakers

Regards Tony

I think you misunderstand the dynamic here.

I am more than content to write your religion off as nonsense. There is nothing about your religion that suggests to me that investigating it would be a productive use of my time or would likely to lead to truth.

However, I'm giving you an opportunity to try to change my mind... but just posting a link and telling me to read it won't cut it.

Your religion's claims are not the only game in town. They aren't even on the short list, frankly. If I were to devote my whole life to nothing but an earnest search for truth, it would take several lifetimes before I got through all the more credible claims and finally investigated the Baha'i faith.

If you want your religion to jump the queue, then you have to give me a reason.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think you misunderstand the dynamic here.

I am more than content to write your religion off as nonsense. There is nothing about your religion that suggests to me that investigating it would be a productive use of my time or would likely to lead to truth.

However, I'm giving you an opportunity to try to change my mind... but just posting a link and telling me to read it won't cut it.

Maybe the dynamics is a misunderstanding of yours and not mine.

I took the opportunity to change your mind by supplying some material that shows why it is worth investigating.

It is exactly the choice I had, is the choice you face. I rejected the faith as soon as I had heard about it from my wife. Nothing she could have offered verbally to me made me look at it for a couple of months.

One day she left a book besides my bed and said there it is, read it or do not read it, it's your choice. I thank God that I was given that choice by my wife.

So you get the same chance, take the opportunity or do not, ball in your court, no use sending that ball back, it's not a game I am playing.

This was the book I read.

https://bahairesources.com/p/god-loves-laughter/

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

My position is that it can be proven to be factual, only when we make the effort to evaluate the evidence and proof provided.

I have the optimism that every person has that capacity and can choose to be just.

Regards Tony

Well, I think TB is right. How do you find proof for an invisible God?

And like I bring up all the time, the Bible claims he parted seas, sent fire from heaven to consume Elijah's sacrifice, and in the NT, he had Jesus do all sorts of miracles to prove he had some supernatural power. But just because it says all those things happened, how do we really know? All of them are too easily dismissed as myth.

Then there's prophecy. Same problem, it's too easily interpreted in a way to make it fit. And it's too easy to pull verses out of context. Which is one thing I complain about that both Christians and Baha'is have done. Like with all the times "woe" is used in the Bible, but the three woes in Revelation Abdul Baha' makes to be Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah? I don't see how the context fits the claim.

But if you're happy with it, what can I say? Maybe just like Baha'is say people are blind and veil themselves from seeing the truth. It the same thing with Baha'is, they see what they want to see in these verses that are claimed to be prophecies. I've never read any of those books written by Baha'is explaining the Book of Revelation, but I'd imagine they are very questionable on how they interpret things. And that's a strike against the credibility of the Baha'i Faith. It sounds like Baha'is are just making things up to make them fit.

And a book I have looked at, "A Thief in the Night", I believe does that very thing. And, naturally, the things in it that I question, Baha'is act as if it is the gospel truth. To me, it isn't. It's just the opinion of a Baha'i... A Baha'i with a biased opinion.