If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.

[Trailblazer]

As far as this OP's direction, it was mostly Atheists that jumped on board.

Personally I do not see this OP is for them, not at all, as their disbelief in God does not enable them to ask of the proof, they have really cut themselves off from that opportunity.

You have that backwards.
The atheists' disbelief in God is exactly why they would be asking for to ask of the proof and that is why so many atheists jumped on board.
The atheist is not cut off from the opportunity to ask for proof of God. Nobody is cut off from that opportunity.

This is about asking a proof as to the validity of the Messenger, who as we know, is all we can know of God.

That is not what you posted in the OP. In the OP you said:

".....And should we ask for a testimony of His truth, we should content ourselves with one, and only one, that thereby we may attain unto Him Who is the Fountainhead of infinite grace, and in Whose presence all the world’s abundance fadeth into nothingness, that we may cease to cavil at Him every day and to cleave unto our own idle fancy...." — The Kitáb-i-Íqán

That is the OP, it appears if we want proof, then we should ask of only One and be content with it.

Would One proof be sufficient for you?

How can an Athiest ask proof of God, if they do not beleive in God?

The fact that atheists do not believe in God is exactly WHY they would be asking for proof of God.

The only way could be, that they ask proof of the Manifestations, but in the end, they have paced a very dark veil that would have to be lifted before the light could start to impart its penetrative influence.

No, the only way they could ask for proof is would not be if they ask proof of the Manifestations.
Have you not yet figured out that the Manifestations of God do not constitute proof for atheists?

Your bias is showing. I guess you cannot think from any perspective except your own.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've argued with Baha'is about that. The stories in the Bible are filled with God proving himself real.

That is laughable. Stories in a book do not prove that God is real.
If those stories were proof that God is real there would be no atheists.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, for some Christians and Jews, those stories are proof that God is real. For Baha'is... not so much. Their God, apparently, wants to stay hidden. He's just so far beyond us that he can't show us anything, except to send a manifestation now and again. But that doesn't prove much when each one contradicts the others.

But, since these messengers/manifestations, are what Baha'is claim to be the proof, they find ways to explain away the contradictions.

I do not claim that these messengers/manifestations are proof that God exists. They are evidence but they are not proof.
There is no proof that God exists.

There are differences between what the messengers say, but there are no contradictions, if you understand what they said.
The contradictions are between the man-made dogmas of the various religions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, the only way they could ask for proof is would not be if they ask proof of the Manifestations.
Have you not yet figured out that the Manifestations of God do not constitute proof for atheists?

Your bias is showing. I guess you cannot think from any perspective except your own.

I will offer the quote again Trailblazer.

"...It behooveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavor, that, by God’s invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self. And should we ask for a testimony of His truth, we should content ourselves with one, and only one, that thereby we may attain unto Him Who is the Fountainhead of infinite grace, and in Whose presence all the world’s abundance fadeth into nothingness, that we may cease to cavil at Him every day and to cleave unto our own idle fancy...." — The Kitáb-i-Íqán

"His own Self" is Baha'u'llah, every Manifestation is the "Self of God'.

And should we ask for a testimony of His (Baha'u'llah "The Glory of God") truth, then we should be content with One.

The only proof of God is the Manifestation, so you have rightly confirmed what I have offered Trailblazer in that you said. "Have you not yet figured out that the Manifestations of God do not constitute proof for atheists?"

That is the first hurdle they have placed between their own selves and God. We all have many hurdles, a beleiver may even have higher hurdles placed, like doctrines and Names.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry, but saying that you'd REJECT a god that COULD be verified in favor of a god that CAN'T be verified seems to me to be the epitome of silliness. Sounds like you're saying that you're going to believe what you believe, regardless of what the verifiable evidence indicates. Seems like the very definition of irrational to me and the furthest thing possible from trying to determine the actual truth. But then, some people prefer fantasy to reality.

There is only One God, the first hurdle we face is how we ask proof from God and that can only be done by asking proof about the Messengers.

That we need to find God through the Messengers is found also in this Bible verse.

John 14:13-17 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. “If you love Me, keep My commandments.."

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So I personally see that asking proof from God, is asking for us to recognise the Messengers, this quote would indicate this is the path to take, tge guven purpose of life.

". The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness. Whoso hath recognized the Day Spring of Divine guidance and entered His holy court hath drawn nigh unto God and attained His Presence, a Presence which is the real Paradise, and of which the loftiest mansions of heaven are but a symbol. Such a man hath attained the knowledge of the station of Him Who is "at the distance of two bows," Who standeth beyond the Sadratu'l-Muntaha. Whoso hath failed to recognize Him will have condemned himself to the misery of remoteness, a remoteness which is naught but utter nothingness and the essence of the nethermost fire. Such will be his fate, though to outward seeming he may occupy the earth's loftiest seats and be established upon its most exalted throne." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70-71

The Daysprings of Divine Guidance are the Messengers and that is how we come to know God.

Thus to obtain God's presence, we must obtain the knowledge of the Messenger.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

And should we ask for a testimony of His (Baha'u'llah "The Glory of God") truth, then we should be content with One.

But that is after one has recognized Baha'u'llah's station as a Manifestation/Messenger of God.

The only proof of God is the Manifestation, so you have rightly confirmed what I have offered Trailblazer in that you said. "Have you not yet figured out that the Manifestations of God do not constitute proof for atheists?"

That is the first hurdle they have placed between their own selves and God. We all have many hurdles, a beleiver may even have higher hurdles placed, like doctrines and Names.

You are correct. That is the first hurdle.

First, atheists need to realize that the only evidence of God is the Manifestations/Messengers of God.
If they cross that hurdle the second hurdle is recognizing Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation/Messenger of God.
If they cross that hurdle, the third hurdle is dealing with the religion that was founded in His name.

Lots of hurdles explains why there are so few Baha'is to date.

The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 183-184

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

God can never be demonstrated to exist, but that does not mean that God does not exist.

But it does mean that there is no reason to believe that.

God does not want to be verified.

That's fine, and compatible with agnostic atheism, which doesn't assert that gods don't exists, but says that if they exist but don't manifest as gods then there is no reason to think about them, much less worship them or obey what others say that they have commanded.

What you keep saying in one form or another to the empiricist is that he has and will find no reason to believe in gods.

there is no evidence for magical pixies whereas there is evidence for God

It's the same evidence. Don't flowers grow and stars shine? Pixies/gods did that.

There can be no proof of who Baha'u'llah was that would establish His station as a fact, we can only prove that to ourselves.

Then you have no "proof" that is meaningful to others if its subjective "proof." You simply have chosen to believe that which critically thinking empiricists don't.

The key I found is that is truth is relative, based on our own choices of mind.

Then it's not truth by any meaningful definition of the word. If all that calling something truth depends on is your choices, then that "truth" is meaningless to others and useful to nobody including you.

What we should do is use logic and reason in both religions and sciences

Faith is antithetical to reason. No amount of reason added to any amount of faith makes an idea reasonable to believe.

You are welcome to your faith-based beliefs without objection (despite disagreement), but when you use words like reason and proof (compelling evidence is more correct when considering empirical knowledge) improperly, then you will hear contradiction.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But that is after one has recognized Baha'u'llah's station as a Manifestation/Messenger of God.

I am seeing that in another frame of reference. I am seeing it that if you beleive in God via a previous Messenger, it is then one would be asking proof from Baha'u'llah, who is claiming the same station.

The hurdle of not even believing in God has been jumped.

It may be, that the possibility of an Atheist jumping that hurdle, is easier then a believer who has allowed the veil of Names or false teachers to interpose between them and the New Messenger?

The question I would have, is how do you ask a Messenger for Proof thay He is of God, if God is not in your mind? I know many have, it would be interesting to hear what enabled them to go from Athiest to beleiver, no matter the Messenger. I know for some it was a NDE experience.

Regards Tony

 

[QuestioningMind]

I've argued with Baha'is about that. The stories in the Bible are filled with God proving himself real. He spoke from heaven. Sent fire from heaven to consume Elijah's sacrifice, parted seas, sent angels and made a fleece damp or dry for Gideon depending on what he asked God to do.

But for those that don't take the Bible literally, and that includes the Baha'is, those stories aren't necessarily true.

So, for some Christians and Jews, those stories are proof that God is real. For Baha'is... not so much. Their God, apparently, wants to stay hidden. He's just so far beyond us that he can't show us anything, except to send a manifestation now and again. But that doesn't prove much when each one contradicts the others.

But, since these messengers/manifestations, are what Baha'is claim to be the proof, they find ways to explain away the contradictions. So, for them, all of them spoke about the one true God and the only reason there were apparent contradictions was because each came to a people in a different time and place... And they needed different teachings to suit their needs at the time. Or so they say.

How absurd. They define their god as being unverifiable and then pretend like the fact that no one can provide verifiable evidence for a god somehow bolsters their claim that their god exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's fine, and compatible with agnostic atheism, which doesn't assert that gods don't exists, but says that if they exist but don't manifest as gods then there is no reason to think about them, much less worship them or obey what others say that they have commanded.

God did manifest as God when He sent the Messengers who were also Manifestations of God, but I know you do not believe that.
It's all good.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How absurd. They define their god as being unverifiable and then pretend like the fact that no one can provide verifiable evidence for a god somehow bolsters their claim that their god exists.

I would offer that the Baha'i Writings 100% offer there is verifiable proof and evidence for/of God.

That verifiable evidence and proof is the Person, the Life and the Message of the Messengers given from God.

Not everyone will choose to see that evidence and proof is verifiable, I would disagree, it is relative to one's chosen frames of reference.

Regards Tony

 

[QuestioningMind]

There is only One God, the first hurdle we face is how we ask proof from God and that can only be done by asking proof about the Messengers.

That we need to find God through the Messengers is found also in this Bible verse.

John 14:13-17 "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. “If you love Me, keep My commandments.."

Regards Tony

I couldn't care less what some self-proclaimed 'messenger' says some god being told them. If there is some god being that has a message for me then that god being can tell me about it itself. If it doesn't want to tell me itself I can only conclude that it must not be a very important message, because any god being worth it's salt would know that I'm not going to be convinced by some second hand claims made by people I'll never meet about the most powerful being that exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would offer that the Baha'i Writings 100% offer there is verifiable proof and evidence for/of God.

That verifiable evidence and proof is the Person, the Life and the Message of the Messengers given from God.

Not everyone will choose to see that evidence and proof is verifiable, I would disagree.

Regards Tony

There is good evidence but there is no verifiable proof of God.

What does it mean to be verifiable?

proved to be true or genuine

adjective. Something that is verifiable can be proved to be true or genuine. This is not a romantic notion but verifiable fact. Synonyms: provable, demonstrable, testable, attestable.
VERIFIABLE definition in American English - Collins Dictionary

 

[Trailblazer]

I couldn't care less what some self-proclaimed 'messenger' says some god being told them. If there is some god being that has a message for me then that god being can tell me about it itself. If it doesn't want to tell me itself I can only conclude that it must not be a very important message, because any god being worth it's salt would know that I'm not going to be convinced by some second hand claims made by people I'll never meet about the most powerful being that exists.

Why do you think that God, the most powerful being that exists, would speak to you directly?
Why do you think that God, the most powerful being that exists, cares if you are convinced that He exists?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I couldn't care less what some self-proclaimed 'messenger' says some god being told them. If there is some god being that has a message for me then that god being can tell me about it itself. If it doesn't want to tell me itself I can only conclude that it must not be a very important message, because any god being worth it's salt would know that I'm not going to be convinced by some second hand claims made by people I'll never meet about the most powerful being that exists.

That's your choice, but it will not be "God" talking to you, any exchange only comes via the Holy Spirit, which is all the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do you think that God, the most powerful being that exists, would speak to you directly?
Why do you think that God, the most powerful being that exists, cares if you are convinced that He exists?

Then on the other hand, the all knowing God loves all, and will guide us. A gift of faith is given, when God so chooses to give the gift.

Regards Tony

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's your choice, but it will not be "God" talking to you,

Speak for yourself. Maybe God just doesn't want to talk to you, so you must rely on hearsay. Pity.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is good evidence but there is no verifiable proof of God.

What does it mean to be verifiable?

proved to be true or genuine

adjective. Something that is verifiable can be proved to be true or genuine. This is not a romantic notion but verifiable fact. Synonyms: provable, demonstrable, testable, attestable.
VERIFIABLE definition in American English - Collins Dictionary

Baha'u'llah has proved God to me and verified that proof with the evidence of His Person, His life and the Message He gave from God.

I do see your stance on this is relative to you, as I personally have based my faith on the verifiable proof of Baha'u'llah's person, life and Message.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Speak for yourself. Maybe God just doesn't want to talk to you, so you must rely on hearsay. Pity.

I offer scripture guidance on these matters, and it is only those passages that now speak to us, the Word given by Jesus as Christ are given of God.

God spoke to the Prophets, Messengers, one of which was Jesus and not to ordinary man, that is the essence of all past Revelations.

So if we ask proof from Jesus, Jesus has already offered.

John 5:37 "And the Father Himself, who hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.."

Are you claiming the station of one who is Annointed of God and heard his voice?

We only hear God if we embrace the Messengers, and when Jesus gave the Message we hear God through Jesus.

John 5:38 "And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not."

Regards Tony