One proof would have no effect on me. I would need around 80 proof.
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If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
I can show up in a crowd and shoot fireballs from my fingers, but alas, I cannot shoot lightning out of my eyes.
Consider. You would be offering that those that have faith, have based that faith on absolutely no knowledge, as to know, one has to build that knowledge on an awareness of facts, on some evidence that subsequently proved to be valid.That is all true except the part where you said that God is known to exist as God has been shown to exist by the Messengers.
If God was known to exist everyone would know that God exists and there would be no atheists.
If God had been shown to exist by the Messengers everyone would believe in the Messengers.
Sorry, I guess I have been posting to atheists for too long.
That everyone has not been shown by God that the evidence is valid proof, has also been addressed by Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah actually said to leave those people to their own selves, as this is their veil, they have made the choice to raise.
It can also be seen this is the chance the OP appears to offer, we can ask for One Proof, we can ask to be shown.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, that is not what I am saying, not at all.
I am saying that God is 'known' to exist by everyone, so everyone does not have knowledge of God.
Yes, Baha'u'llah said it is proof, but you added that the evidence is valid proof.
Valid for whom? It is not valid evidence for atheists, so I guess what you are saying in so many words is that atheists are veiled, blind?
I do not look at it that way and I consider that to be an arrogant position to take...
Everyone looks at the evidence with their own eyes so we will not all see the same things.
As a Messenger/Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah is in a position to call people veiled or blind, but I don't think we should say that or even imply it.
26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.
27: O SON OF MAN! Breathe not the sins of others so long as thou art thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldst thou be, and to this I bear witness.
66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh
reference.bahai.org
It's no me on any Baha'i saying it Trailblazer, it is something an Athiest would have to consider, if they wanted proof about God, it is God that says they place their own veils. Many quotes, you would have read them. Here is one from the "Book of Laws".
"...Fear God, and be not of those who are shut out as by a veil. Burn ye away the veils with the fire of My love, and dispel ye the mists of vain imaginings by the power of this Name through which We have subdued the entire creation..." Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 66
If people do not want the proof they will not ask, they will not look, that is their choice, that is their chosen veil. The Message sets that standard, it is not about us being arrogant.
We are not able to make anyone look, faith is a gift to whom God chooses to give and take away. Our heart enables us to be receptive to the gift.
"Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognise His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation." Bahá’u’lláh, The Dawnbreakers, p. 586
(The part in bold is self explanatory)
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's true, and it is okay for Baha'u'llah to say it and for you to pass it along.
It's all in the presentation.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Can you blame people for being skeptical of people with their religious claims? Probably most of that skepticism is aimed at literalist Christians that believe in the Adam and Eve Creation story which includes a literal tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It would also include the belief that a literal serpent spoke and tempted them.
Then there's the literal flood. And that people in those days lived hundreds of years. That Elijah was carried off on a literal fiery chariot. Then in the NT that there is a Satan the literally tempted Jesus. And that Jesus cast out demons and raised Lazarus from the dead. And then, of course, he came back to life and floated off into the clouds.
Those Christians that believe the Bible is inerrant and literally true believe those Atheists, and Baha'is, are blind and are veiled from the truth.
It is because of people with those kinds of religious beliefs that some people used scientific knowledge to challenge the beliefs of those literal believing Christians. Is it wrong to use that same scientific knowledge against all the other religious beliefs, including the Baha'i Faith?
If you believe that it's not wrong, then can you use science to look at Baha'i evidence for God and the evidence for Baha'u'llah and try and prove that it is true?
Probably not, which makes TB's stance correct. But still, for you and people in any religion that do believe their religions claims are true, I would agree, they seem true to you and them. Trouble is... you will both be believing in things that the other doesn't believe. So, it is only true for you. And only true because you believe it's true.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sorry, I was in a bit of a hurry today so I missed this the first time around.
"Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which though he himself was unaware of....."
Our faith and our heart is not what he was referring to... Those have nothing to do with our deeds.
We do not know what those deeds were... As it says "he himself was unaware of its character."
God enabled us to recognize this Cause because of a deed we did that made us worthy of recognizing this Cause.
"As to those who have remained deprived of such blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation."
You said that the part in bold is self explanatory, but we do not know what those acts were. Only God knows.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Nope... if your evidence doesn't verify anything then it's useless. Useless evidence certainly is NOT good evidence. Any god that can't be verified is an absolutely useless god. Just like magical pixies that can't be verified are absolutely useless magical pixies.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Useless to you, but what is useless to you is not necessarily useless to other people.
That is true, but you can only define what is useless and thus not good evidence for you.
What is useless, and thus not good evidence, to you is not necessarily useless, and thus not good evidence, to other people.
Useless to you, but very useful for other people.
Any god that could be verified would be useless to, me since I would know it was not the one true God, since the one true God is not verifiable.
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QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
So silly
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is nothing silly about what I said. It is absolutely true.
QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but saying that you'd REJECT a god that COULD be verified in favor of a god that CAN'T be verified seems to me to be the epitome of silliness. Sounds like you're saying that you're going to believe what you believe, regardless of what the verifiable evidence indicates. Seems like the very definition of irrational to me and the furthest thing possible from trying to determine the actual truth. But then, some people prefer fantasy to reality.
As far as this OP's direction, it was mostly Atheists that jumped on board.That's true, and it is okay for Baha'u'llah to say it and for you to pass it along.
It's all in the presentation.
Personally I do not see this OP is for them, not at all, as their disbelief in God does not enable them to ask of the proof, they have really cut themselves off from that opportunity.
I see the passage Baha'u'llah offered about asking of one proof, is for those that have already embraced a past Messenger and have trouble accepting the New Messenger.
"...It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation, hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith—principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked—they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth.…"
This is about asking a proof as to the validity of the Messenger, who as we know, is all we can know of God.
How can an Athiest ask proof of God, if they do not beleive in God? The only way could be, that they ask proof of the Manifestations, but in the end, they have paced a very dark veil that would have to be lifted before the light could start to impart its penetrative influence.
Regards Tony
Well CG, if you read the OP quotes Baha'u'llah has offered that in every age there are barriers we place that blind us to the God given Messengers.
The opportunity to ask for a proof should be embraced, I see the advice that we should be content with one proof is about spiritual maturity. If the Messengers give us the proof we ask for, why keep asking for more?
That is basically what the OP is about.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Let's start over. I said:
Any god that could be verified would be useless to me since I would know it was not the one true God, since the one true God is not verifiable.
The only reason I said that is because I know that God is not verifiable. That is based upon my Baha'i beliefs about God but it is also based upon logic. Let's just look at the logic behind that, since I know you do not accept religious beliefs.
If God exists God is not verifiable because nobody has ever been able to verify God's existence.
So the only logical possibilities are as follows:
1) God exists but God is not verifiable
2) God does not exist
If God does not exist, the reason God does not exist is not because God is unverifiable.
God exists whether or not God is verifiable.
I never said that I am going to believe what I believe, regardless of what the verifiable evidence indicates.
If there was verifiable evidence that God does not exist, I would not believe that God exists.
There is no verifiable evidence that God exists.
There is no verifiable evidence that God does not exist.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Okay, you're right. The one proof I ask is that all those people that claim they believe in God... to actually live by those things that their God told them to do.
The wish of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, that which attracts His good pleasure and, indeed, His binding command, is that Bahá'ís, in all matters, even in small daily transactions and dealings with others, should act in accordance with the divine Teachings. He has commanded us not to be content with lowliness, humility and meekness, but rather to become manifestations of selflessness and utter nothingness. Of old, all have been exhorted to loyalty and fidelity, compassion and love; in this supreme Dispensation, the people of Bahá are called upon to sacrifice their very lives. Notice the extent to which the friends have been required in the Sacred Epistles and Tablets, as well as in our Beloved's Testament, to be righteous, well-wishing, forbearing, sanctified, pure, detached from all else save God, severed from the trappings of this world and adorned with the mantle of a goodly character and godly attributes.
First and foremost, one should use every possible means to purge one's heart and motives, otherwise, engaging in any form of enterprise would be futile. It is also essential to abstain from hypocrisy and blind imitation, inasmuch as their foul odour is soon detected by every man of understanding and wisdom. Moreover, the friends must observe the specific times for the remembrance of God, meditation, devotion and prayer, as it is highly unlikely, nay impossible, for any enterprise to prosper and develop when deprived of divine bestowals and confirmation. One can hardly imagine what a great influence genuine love, truthfulness and purity of motives exert on the souls of men. But these traits cannot be acquired by any believer unless he makes a daily effort to gain them... It is primarily through the potency of noble deeds and character, rather than by the power of exposition and proofs, that the friends of God should demonstrate to the world that what has been promised by God is bound to happen, that it is already taking place and that the divine glad-tidings are clear, evident and complete. For unless some illustrious souls step forth into the arena of service and shine out resplendent in the assemblage of men, the task of vindicating the truth of this Cause before the eyes of enlightened people would be formidable indeed. However, if the friends become embodiments of virtue and good character, words and arguments will be superfluous. Their very deeds will well serve as eloquent testimony, and their noble conduct will ensure the preservation, integrity and glory of the Cause of God.
(From a letter dated 19 December 1923 written by Shoghi Effendi
To paraphrase Paul in one of his letters... To not have love, you're just making a bunch noise. No one is going to listen to you. Too many religious people push their beliefs on others as if true, but do they live by them?
That is now between you and God CG. It's none of my business what you ask God for as a proof.
Consider if you ask for proof, then you must also choose to be that example in that quote you provided.
If you are not able, why would you expect others will be able to live that perfection?
The key to change is that each individual must take the first step.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I've argued with Baha'is about that. The stories in the Bible are filled with God proving himself real. He spoke from heaven. Sent fire from heaven to consume Elijah's sacrifice, parted seas, sent angels and made a fleece damp or dry for Gideon depending on what he asked God to do.
But for those that don't take the Bible literally, and that includes the Baha'is, those stories aren't necessarily true.
So, for some Christians and Jews, those stories are proof that God is real. For Baha'is... not so much. Their God, apparently, wants to stay hidden. He's just so far beyond us that he can't show us anything, except to send a manifestation now and again. But that doesn't prove much when each one contradicts the others.
But, since these messengers/manifestations, are what Baha'is claim to be the proof, they find ways to explain away the contradictions. So, for them, all of them spoke about the one true God and the only reason there were apparent contradictions was because each came to a people in a different time and place... And they needed different teachings to suit their needs at the time. Or so they say.