If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.

[TransmutingSoul]

Just so I'm clear: your argument is:

1. if people have believed something for a long time, the belief must be correct.
2. people have believed in God for a long time.
3. therefore, belief in God is correct




Those aren't the only possibilities, but how did you decide that they couldn't have been lying?



How fortunate that you're here to speak for them.

Therefore the proof of God is already confirmed by those Messengers and subsequently they influenced humanity for centuries and millenniums.

I suggest the OP is about you asking of God any of that question, if it is such proof you are after.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How fortunate that you're here to speak for them.

We are very fortunate indeed that they spoke for and on behalf of us.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Therefore the proof of God is already confirmed by those Messengers and subsequently they influenced humanity for centuries and millenniums.

That doesn't follow.

I suggest the OP is about you asking of God any of that question, if it is such proof you are after.

Regards Tony

Well, asking you hasn't exactly been fruitful, so asking God probably wouldn't be any less useful.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That doesn't follow

It does if you are a Messenger, as the Message sets the moral and ethical
standards people then choose to live by, these are lasting and not fleeting as per the standards set by ordinary men.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, asking you hasn't exactly been fruitful, so asking God probably wouldn't be any less useful.

That is because the OP is not about asking me, or any person of any faith for proof.

It is about asking God of a proof, everyone's choice, would they only be able to ask a single proof?

For others, the simple position is "I do not see this would prove anything".

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

That is because the OP is not about asking me, or any person of any faith for proof.

It is about asking God of a proof, everyone's choice, would they only be able to ask a single proof?

Just out of curiosity, how do you think that God would provide that proof, by phone, mail or telegram?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It does if you are a Messenger, as the Message sets the moral and ethical
standards people then choose to live by, these are lasting and not fleeting as per the standards set by ordinary men.

Regards Tony

I think you missed my point.

You've continually ignored or misinterpreted what I say, so I don't care to go into detail this time.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That is because the OP is not about asking me, or any person of any faith for proof.

Asking you if you think the scenario in the OP is reasonable or fair is entirely on topic, though.

It is about asking God of a proof, everyone's choice, would they only be able to ask a single proof?

For others, the simple position is "I do not see this would prove anything".

Regards Tony

Right: because what you gave us wasn't an intellectually honest question.

All you offer in your thought experiment is a paradox. What could convince you that the present King of France is bald? What would convince you that a square circle is a square and therefore not a circle?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Just out of curiosity, how do you think that God would provide that proof, by phone, mail or telegram?

Only as God so chooses.

Once, true story, we had brought land and dedicated it to a "Baha'i Peace Park". Lots of work done planting trees, building BBQ fireplaces, Building 2 x BBQ picnic shelters and seating..

We will still in construction mode as the advertised opening date was fast arriving, 2 days before we ran out of money to finish the seating and still needed from memory $762 to complete the task, but no chance, all funds had expired. I asked in prayer, God that's all we need and project is completed. On that 2nd day before, now in the afternoon, a friend arrive from the coast 800km away. They had brought a gift for the opening, some fruit and salads and an envelope. In the envelope was $762.00, the exact amount needed to pick up the remaining materials to finish the project. They had had a gathering the day before and did a pass around for funds to help us. One can say a coincidence, but hey, I did make the prayer, and it was the exact amount!

You can imagine the big "you have to be kidding me" smiles we all had.

Finished it the next day and had the opening of the Baha'i Peace Park. Still have the wonderful photos. That was early 1990s.

I have more stories and more ways that these answers are given. I will not share more, as each individual should find this for their own selves.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[blü 2]

Do you think you could be content with one proof?

This extract from the Kitab-i-iqan by Baha'u'llah first addresses why we reject a Messenger

"...It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation, hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith—principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked—they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth.…"

Then He adds that the darkest veils become the teachings and traditions

"....It behooveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavor, that, by God’s invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self..."

It is the Self of the Messengers that become the greatest way we can recognise God.

".....And should we ask for a testimony of His truth, we should content ourselves with one, and only one, that thereby we may attain unto Him Who is the Fountainhead of infinite grace, and in Whose presence all the world’s abundance fadeth into nothingness, that we may cease to cavil at Him every day and to cleave unto our own idle fancy...." — The Kitáb-i-Íqán

That is the OP, it appears if we want proof, then we should ask of only One and be content with it.

Would One proof be sufficient for you?

Bonus question if you want to share, "What proof could we possibly ask"?

I am aware of stories of what some people have asked and that some also were not content with just one.

Many had private thoughts and challenges that they expected to be answered without asking the question.

Thus another question, if you want to share is, "if someone could always do this, is it proof of Divinity, would it convince you"?

Regards Tony

I'm in the same quandary as ever.

I don't need proof for the existence ─ in the form of concepts, notions, things imagined ─ of supernatural beings. I can conjure up as many as I wish if ever I should so wish.

But if God is said to be real, to have objective existence, to be found existing independently in the world external to me, which I know about through my senses, then I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what real thing we're looking for, how we'll know it's God if and when we find it.

And what is 'godness', the quality a real god would have and a real superscientist who could create universes, travel in time &c would lack?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Only as God so chooses.

Once, true story, we had brought land and dedicated it to a "Baha'i Peace Park". Lots of work done planting trees, building BBQ fireplaces, Building 2 x BBQ picnic shelters and seating..

We will still in construction mode as the advertised opening date was fast arriving, 2 days before we ran out of money to finish the seating and still needed from memory $762 to complete the task, but no chance, all funds had expired. I asked in prayer, God that's all we need and project is completed. On that 2nd day before, now in the afternoon, a friend arrive from the coast 800km away. They had brought a gift for the opening, some fruit and salads and an envelope. In the envelope was $762.00, the exact amount needed to pick up the remaining materials to finish the project. They had had a gathering the day before and did a pass around for funds to help us. One can say a coincidence, but hey, I did make the prayer, and it was the exact amount!

You can imagine the big "you have to be kidding me" smiles we all had.

Finished it the next day and had the opening of the Baha'i Peace Park. Still have the wonderful photos. That was early 1990s.

I have more stories and more ways that these answers are given. I will not share more, as each individual should find this for their own selves.

All the best, Regards Tony

Near here last week, a 5-year-old boy died of a brain tumor. He had many people praying for him.

I hope your picnic shelter is nice, because if you're right and that God exists and answers prayers, we can infer that God thinks you having a bit of shade during barbecues is worth intervening in his creation, but doesn't think this about Matteo living long enough to see grade 1.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do not accept God exists and sends messengers as a fact because it is not a fact. It is a belief so I accept it as a belief.

Belief without evidence. OK, it is your choice.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why has humanity not made the choice to help each other, to be one people, on one planet, living in harmony with the environment?

I see God Loves and will look after all humanity. Part of that is education and God allows us to learn.

The current suffering is not of God, it is of our choices and errant ways of living with our environment and the way we treat it.
We are not able to control natural disasters, but we can live in harmony with them. We are currently assisting the severity of their effects.

Because evolution has created us to be selfish. But to survive, humans had to make societies. And to live in a society we had to care for other members and also compete with other societies (pre-human or animal) for resources. Puny human ancestors! Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis, 3.2 million years ago) ".. was a young adult ..", walked upright, ".. was 1.1 m (3 ft 7 in) tall, weighed 29 kg (64 lb) ..". I wonder how did they even survive the carnivores (lions, tigers, leopards, hyenas, wolves, cheetahs) to evolve into us! Some of these animals were larger in earlier ages than they are now!

Lucy (Australopithecus) - Wikipedia

You are seeing things which do not exist.
But that is the way it has to be. Even returning to forest will not help. We are just too many and want many luxuries.
We cannot control natural disasters, but your all-mighty God who creates these disasters can help ,, but he does not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Near here last week, a 5-year-old boy died of a brain tumor. He had many people praying for him.

I hope your picnic shelter is nice, because if you're right and that God exists and answers prayers, we can infer that God thinks you having a bit of shade during barbecues is worth intervening in his creation, but doesn't think this about Matteo living long enough to see grade 1.

My prayer in these situations, including my own family, is may God's Will be done for that child and everyone, it is the best prayer we can offer.

There are some things that can not be healed by prayer, prayer will not mend bones, but can five the capacity of mind to assist the healing process. Prayer is not able to remove tumors, as It takes modern medicine, prayer and assist the Dr to find the best solution, and if best for the Child, God will answer.

We tend to pray for what we see is the best outcome, but God knows what is best for all us, and a short life here would have great meaning.

It is hard for people to consider such replies and I have already anticipated your and many others responses.

There is also a reason for people that do not beleive, we must be thankful for it all. Luckily, one day all these questions will be answered.

There is many YouTube NDE records that will offer a personal insight as to the wisdom of suffering. Many people find this a difficult subject, as some people face horrific events and suffering.

Abdul'baha offered.

"...When calamity striketh, be ye patient and composed. However afflictive your sufferings may be, stay ye undisturbed, and with perfect confidence in the abounding grace of God, brave ye the tempest of tribulations and fiery ordeals..."

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

I see the signs of God in everything, the universe, in nature and within ourselves. I see the signs of God everywhere. There is nothing that we possess that does not have a builder or inventor or creator. None of our possessions just randomly appeared. Our homes had a builder, our cars a manufacturer. Nothing we possess does not have a maker or creator. This God I speak about is the essence and epitome of intelligence Who put the laws of physics in place, the laws of nature and created a human body which functions on auto with marvellous regularity.

And then Baha'u'llah appears in a world of conflict and disunity and creates a world community from a cross section of humanity comprised of all religious, racial and national backgrounds working in perfect harmony ordained by God and people still say that there’s no God. Yet which human being is able to do what Baha’u’llah has successfully done? Humanity, left under man’s guidance is descending into anarchy, war and chaos not knowing how to nor having the ability to extricate itself from this worldwide mess. But under the guidance of Baha’u’llah we are united and agreed and at peace and at one with one another despite our conflicting backgrounds.

If Baha’u’llah is nothing special and not from God then why can’t ordinary humans bring people together and unite people like He has? I believe He has a special power which is from God which is why He is able to unite people while others cannot. So God not only created the universe, nature, the formula for the human body but also He created the Perfect Man Who has the ability to unite humanity.

 

[F1fan]

The whole of creation is proof of a Creator.

No it isn't. That stuff exists is proof that it exists. That it exists doesn't say anything about how it exists. Let's note there is no evdience of any God/Creator that can be cited as a cause for anything existing, so at best your "proof" is just an assumvtion that came from ancient lore, not facts.

It did not get here by itself.

But the Creator did?

As stated, we stuff exists, an we kn ow of natural laws tat govern matter's behavior. This explains how the universe functions. It's most likely that matter has always existed.

There are many logical and reasonable arguments for God the creator and there is really no logical reason to state there is no intelligence behind creation.

The arguments are notoriously weak and inconclusive. They all suffer one fatal error, and that is that they all have to assume a God exists. None prove a God exists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My prayer in these situations, including my own family, is may God's Will be done for that child and everyone, it is the best prayer we can offer.

But your god is apparently the sort of god who will tweak the universe to - I presume - violate your friend's free will to make him deliver you exactly $762.

I can think of plenty of situations where a fair bit of real human suffering could be averted if $762 were to be magically delivered to the right person. But God doesn't deliver that cash to those people; just to you. Why?

There are some things that can not be healed by prayer, prayer will not mend bones, but can five the capacity of mind to assist the healing process. Prayer is not able to remove tumors, as It takes modern medicine, prayer and assist the Dr to find the best solution, and if best for the Child, God will answer.

Yes - funny about that. God can seemingly only do things that random chance in a godless universe would also be able to do.

But your position does seem strange, though. Think about all the subtle manipulations of the universe that would be required for God to force your friend to give you that money. You don't think that sort of God would be capable of removing a tumor?

We tend to pray for what we see is the best outcome, but God knows what is best for all us, and a short life here would have great meaning.

It is hard for people to consider such replies and I have already anticipated your and many others responses.

There is also a reason for people that do not beleive, we must be thankful for it all. Luckily, one day all these questions will be answered.

There is many YouTube NDE records that will offer a personal insight as to the wisdom of suffering. Many people find this a difficult subject, as some people face horrific events and suffering.

Abdul'baha offered.

"...When calamity striketh, be ye patient and composed. However afflictive your sufferings may be, stay ye undisturbed, and with perfect confidence in the abounding grace of God, brave ye the tempest of tribulations and fiery ordeals..."

Regards Tony

... except for the calamity of being slightly short of the fundraising target for a large project.

God expects children to endure the suffering of terminal cancer, but doesn't expect you to endure the suffering of having to make do with a slightly smaller picnic shelter than you originally planned or 1 to 2 fewer trees... right?

Living through chemotherapy is one thing, but the threat of having to make a minor scope change to a park project? That's the sort of thing that really makes God sit up and take notice.

 

[F1fan]

Therefore the proof of God is already confirmed by those Messengers and subsequently they influenced humanity for centuries and millenniums.

Only by assuming the Messengers are genuine, and assume they are telling the truth. There are no facts that suggests they are.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Why would you expect something to be verified it it is unverifiable? That makes no sense at all.

I never said that you should believe in something that can't be verified?
I said : But if you cannot believe in a God that cannot be verified that's fine. It will only mean that you can't believe in God.

Nobody should ever believe in God just because it feels good. They should only believe in things that are true.
People should look at the evidence for God in order to determine if it is true that God exists.

Why would you expect something to be verified it it is unverifiable? That makes no sense at all.

I don't... since magical pixies are unverifiable, I certainly don't expect magical pixies to be verified.

I never said that you should believe in something that can't be verified?
I said : But if you cannot believe in a God that cannot be verified that's fine. It will only mean that you can't believe in God.

I never claimed you said I should believe in anything. I simply said that since your god can't be verified, I can't believe in it, and you basically repeated what I said.

Nobody should ever believe in God just because it feels good. They should only believe in things that are true.
People should look at the evidence for God in order to determine if it is true that God exists.

Only evidence that is verifiable is good evidence, evidence that can't be verified is useless. If your god can't be verified then good evidence for it can never be found that would demonstrate that it's true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would you expect something to be verified it it is unverifiable? That makes no sense at all.

You would not expect something to be verified it it is unverifiable. That makes no sense at all.

Only evidence that is verifiable is good evidence, evidence that can't be verified is useless.

That is your personal opinion to which you are welcome.
However, since God is not verifiable it makes no sense to expect evidence that is verifiable.

If your god can't be verified then good evidence for it can never be found that would demonstrate that it's true.

God can never be demonstrated to exist, but that does not mean that God does not exist.
Proof is just what some people want, but proof does not make God exist.
If God exists God exists, even if there is no evidence of any kind.

There is good evidence, just no verifiable evidence, because God does not want to be verified.
Guess who gets to decide what kind of evidence we will get? God.