QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
When you can insert magical pixies for god and the argument is just as legitimate, it suggests a very poor standard of evidence, not good evidence in the least.
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If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
Critical thinking in not about embracing, it is about questioning. Questioning until every possible scenario has been explored.
Critical thinking is even more important in science. To continually questioned established scientific theories. Faith is never an acceptable answer especially with regards to science.
Once you've developed such a mindset, you can't turn if off even for "God".
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You can insert magical pixies for god and the argument if you want to, but the hundred-dollar difference is that there is no evidence for magical pixies whereas there is evidence for God, notwithstanding the fact that it is not verifiable evidence.
Which happens with both science and religion, we never stop learning. It's not about turning it off, which happens when one rejects religion, or science, it is about using it correctly.
Regards Tony
I personally see that would be saying Baha'u'llah did not Prove who he was. If Baha'u'llah has proved who he was, then the evidence of God has been verified. There can be no acceptance without our verification of the given evidence and proofs of the Manifestations.
Thus I do not see the stance about there being no verifiable evidence, is the right path to take. Faith is not all about proof and evidence, as they are given and accepted. The issue is it is evidence and proofs are of an unseen force, and that is why it is known as Faith. Certitude in Faith is that the Messengers have verified the proofs and evidences of the Spiritual to those that subsequently except them and practice what they have preached.
For science this is the discovery of the forces that create life, the forces that allow life and brain activity, the forces that allow communication between trees in the forrest and the forces we are yet to find. Forces the Messengers have already proved are from God.
The key I found is that is truth is relative, based on our own choices of mind. If our mind is closed to the spiritual potentials, we will not see them, no matter how many experiments we undertake, no matter how much pious devotions we participate in, we will not fully find the source of truth that creates life. We can all utilise those sources for good, humble in our limited capacity. When humbled we can progress to our full capacity.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah offered evidence of who He was and some of us have verified that evidence.
There can be no proof of who Baha'u'llah was that would establish His station as a fact, we can only prove that to ourselves.
Should we then not reject any religion? Even those that worship different Gods? Should we not reject the claims of science which can not be supported?
Doesn't truth require discernment. We have to judge. Yes, sometimes we will be wrong in our judgement but if we stop questioning, we won't know that.
What I would ask of God to show their divinity?
I would ask God to destroy creation and then bring it back. Then at least I'd have to accept their role as creator.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What happens when we put the Bible to the test? We can trace back to Adam and Eve and add up the years. Same with Noah and the flood.
Total years from Adam to Jesus Christ is 4239.5 years. If the birth of Jesus is assumed to be 6 BC, then Adam existed 6268.5 years ago.
In Genesis Chapter 5, the bible gave details on the age of each person from Adam to Noah, when they had each of their son. If you map out all those information, you will discover that from the birth of Adam to the flood of Noah is 1656 years.
I doubt very much that any Baha'i believe those stories literally. So, when it comes to the Bible, what are people supposed to examine scientifically?Is the Baha'i Faith and Baha'u'llah any better? Probably. But Baha'u'llah did say that thing about copper turning into gold. We can do a scientific test and see if that's true. But what are Baha'is going to do if the copper doesn't turn into gold?
For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold
As for the question of the transmutation of copper into gold, this is possible and certain; that is to say, by means of the hidden science, which in this cycle is one of the special bounties of the Blessed Beauty. The materialistic philosophers of modern science believe that the metals are isolated elements incapable of transmutation into one another; in other words, they think that the essential qualities (máhíyat) of things cannot become transformed. But in the future, it will become manifest and clear that this is possible."
('Abdu'l-Bahá,
Was he being serious about this? But either way, as you know I doubt what he claims, because of the people he says were manifestations of God... Like Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. Jews don't even make these people "manifestations" of God. The closest would be Moses, but he had lots of human frailties and flaws. So, not even close to being the "perfect" reflections of God that is claimed for a manifestation by the Baha'i Faith. Manifestations of God might be compared to mirrors that perfectly reflect the sun’s light in a form that human beings are capable of comprehending. “These sanctified Mirrors…are one and all the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty.”
There is no definitive list of Manifestations of God, but Baháʼu'lláh and ʻAbdu'l-Bahá referred to several personages as Manifestations; they include: Zoroaster, Krishna, Gautama Buddha, all the Jewish prophets, Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb, and ultimately Baháʼu'lláh.
What we should do is use logic and reason in both religions and sciences
There are both false sciences and false religions.
Regards Tony
What you would ask has been answered already, it is now happening. It is just that one has not yet contemplated the answer that is being given.
Every Messenger destroys the old creation and makes all things new, that is the Essence of the Message. This in fact has now been explained in great detail.
I can give a lot greater detail. But I will first offer this response so you can offer if you want to see how the answer has been given.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, the station of Baha'u'llah as a Messenger/Manifestation of God is not a fact, since it has not been proven to be true.
Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact
1. something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something…
Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.
There is evidence for Baha'u'llah, but there is no proof.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Good, as long as you realize that for some of those people who believe they have received messengers really really really believe it.
Sorry, I see that is just playing with words in your own realive way.No, the station of Baha'u'llah as a Messenger/Manifestation of God is not a fact, since it has not been proven to be true.
Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact
1. something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something…dictionary.cambridge.org
Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.
There is evidence for Baha'u'llah, but there is no proof.
Baha'u'llah offers there are proofs, you say ther are none, do you see why I do not agree with your stance, your interpretation of proof?
This is a classic declaration of the Proof of a Messenger, given by Baha'u'llah.
". Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Dayspring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."
There are many such passages from Baha'u'llah, Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi about what proof is available.
That's all I can share and need to offer no more than what all those quotes do say, which is not what you are offering.
All the best and regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is proof to you, but it is not proof to non-Baha'is and it is not proof according to the definition of proof, because Baha'u'llah's station can never be established as a fact or the truth.
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:
Search the world's information, including webpages, images, videos and more. Google has many special features to help you find exactly what you're looking for.
www.google.com
Fact
something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact
1. something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something…
God is not known to exist, God can only ever be believed to exist.
Nobody can ever establish as a fact that God exists so that means it cannot be established as a fact that God sends Messengers.
This is logic 101 stuff.
You do realise that I can use the same reversed example as Logical 101 stuff.
God is known to exist as God has been shown to exist by the Messengers.
The Messengers have established the fact that God exists, by establishing that God has sent them as Messengers by providing evidence and proofs.
If they had not established this is a logical sound way, giving sufficient evidence to prove who they are, no one could ever be confimed in faith, it would be a faith built on sand.
False prophets are not able to provide the evidence based proofs.
I will offer that will be the end of this play of words for me Trailblazer. Stay well, stay happy.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
If all the Baha'is were working together in "perfect" harmony, that would be impressive. But they aren't. I was around Baha'i for three years back in the early 70's, and there was a lot of tension between conservative and liberal Baha'is. Just from what I saw, I wouldn't call any of the people "perfect" practicing Baha'is. They were working on and learning how to get along and how best to promote the teachings of the Baha'i Faith.
Some people dropped out. Some people became inactive. Some people year after year were voted into the Local Spiritual Assembly, while others weren't. In one community the chairman of the LSA had an affair with the teenage Baha'i neighbor. A few years later, he ended up divorcing his wife and marrying the young lady.
The Baha'i people and their communities are works in progress. They are not "perfect" and are not running smoothly. And I mention it again, the Baha'is that started the Dialogue Magazine got shut down for making suggestions on how the Baha'i community could be doing things better.
- The purpose of this essay is to attempt a beginning at the discussion of potential remedies for our plight. `Abdu'l-Baha assures us that the solutions to tests and difficulties come from frank and honest consultation. Hopefully, this proposal will serve to launch earnest and soul-searching discussion within the community. By no means does this essay pretend to be; all-inclusive, nor does it portend to have all or even one of the answers. We have restricted our observations and proposals to a limited range of national policy issues that can be consulted on and implemented or rejected in a timely manner.
- It is our hope that the implementation of new policies, designed to open up the f1ow of information between the believers and their institutions, will bring about more honest communication and consultation and thereby assist us all to more effectively address such issues as deficiencies in Baha’i devotional life, or problems with racism, prejudice, cultural pluralism, and sexism in our midst-problems which many readers may view as more fundamental than the one's we raise here. It is the fondest hope of the authors that these observations and recommendations will be accepted in the spirit of loving and honest consultation, and not taken personally by any one or looked on as hostile, destructively critical, or dissembling in any way.
Somebody did something wrong here. And it might have been members of the United States Baha'i National Spiritual Assembly.
(T)he House of Justice continues to ignore the facts of the case as
presented in our appeal letters. Indeed, one of the most frustrating
aspects of our appeal process to the House of Justice is that they have
simply refused to address the specifics of our appeals and the evidence we
have presented that contradicts the NSA's account of our actions and
motives. In doing so, the House of Justice has relied on the campaign of
backbiting and gossip that has been directed at us for over 15 years by
prominent Baha'i administrators...
I am also disturbed by the manner in which the NSA and House of Justice
have taken certain passages from our appeals and twisted their meaning in
order to give the appearance that we are being devious in our actions. What
comes across time and again in the letters from the House in response to
our appeals are vague accusations that are never substantiated with
specific examples. On the other hand, our appeals supplied the House with
concrete evidence of lies and unethical behavior on the part of the NSA. To
these specific charges (which I will discuss below) the House has remained
silent and continues to misrepresent the actions and motives of those of us
involved with "Dialogue" magazine...
We appealed to the House of Justice because the Constitution of Universal House of
Justice states that the Supreme Institution of the Baha'i Faith is
responsible "to safeguard the personal rights, freedom and initiative of
individuals," and "for ensuring that no body or institution within the
Cause abuse its privileges." I remain convinced that violation of Baha'i
law, abuse of authority and privileges, and disregard of Baha'i teachings
and values has occurred and that the National Assembly is the perpetrator
of such violations.
Whether you side with the editors of the Baha'i magazine or the NSA of the U.S., it still shows that there are problems within the Baha'i community. And I don't expect them to be perfect. But, if the leaders at the top of a religious organization aren't perfect, and they aren't, then there will be problems.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is all true except the part where you said that God is known to exist as God has been shown to exist by the Messengers.
If God was known to exist everyone would know that God exists and there would be no atheists.
If God had been shown to exist by the Messengers everyone would believe in the Messengers.
Sorry, I guess I have been posting to atheists for too long.
Which messenger?
I've heard from many.
Perhaps that is the problem. Too many. One can arbitrary pick whom to listen based on I guess whatever sounds good to you.
I see that would be a personal question that one would need to ask of God.
I can offer from my personal experience, that if you ask of God and expect a reply on what sounds good to ones self, then we would most likely being influenced mostly by one's own self.
The Messengers come at a time when humanity has strayed far from the spiritual path that builds unity of purpose. There are very few souls that do not require a massive change in their understanding of life and its purpose, as to reverse the destruction of the world and the building of the new.
Just as the coldest part of the morning is just as the sun is rising, this is the stage that humanity has reached. We are fast approaching the time when the destruction is more than apparent, we are at the dawn of the new world that is being raised. So much good is out there ready to light the new day.
The new dayI see has dawned and it will be a brilliant day. Yet we live in the time of that day when the coldest influences of a dead old world order still has a few minutes left. Soon the heat of the new day will dominate.
The darkness of hate, war, nationalism, predudices, inequality, poverty, unbridled liberty, greed, materialism are all part of the destroyed world, the new one rolling out in its stead will embrace a Global world order that addresses all the destructive influences and will be based on Trustworthiness and Truthfulness.
Regards Tony