If you are a religious believer, do you have to?

[danieldemol]

The moment we give up our sense making to a religion , priest , group , organisation, Church , cult leader , guru , master , philosophy then we will never arrive at our own conclusions and be easily deceived.

Sounds like a good reason not to give up our sense making to Paul or Jesus.
In my opinion

 

[John1.12]

Sounds like a good reason not to give up our sense making to Paul or Jesus.
In my opinion

That's the subject of what I'm trying to make sense of . I try maintain MY sense making as I study the scriptures . I don't give up my sense making to the Scriptures. You missed my point .

 

[John1.12]

Sounds like a good reason not to give up our sense making to Paul or Jesus.
In my opinion

If your religion / philosophy, requires you to submit to it by suspending critical thinking and give up your sense making , to authorities, Confessions , Meditation, asceticism, extreme self denial, 'practices' , statements of faith , creeds , men with pointy beards , Gurus , vicars , priests , popes , churches , masters, gurus , Modern day prophets, so called, Pastors , organisations, groups, run , your probably in a cult , or your being deceived. Spiritually abused at worst .

 

[Spirit of Light]

over all I would try to listen and understand what he or she believes. ultimately I cannot say if someone is saved or not . 'free thinking ' ? Depends what you mean ? If you mean, maintaining your sense making and not giving that over to others ,then absolutely. This is the best way to learn the bible as a believer. The moment we give up our sense making to a religion , priest , group , organisation, Church , cult leader , guru , master , philosophy then we will never arrive at our own conclusions and be easily deceived.

@Barry Johnson I think you have a good answer here, and it is within my though when i made the OP

 

[danieldemol]

If your religion / philosophy, requires you to submit to it by suspending critical thinking and give up your sense making , to authorities, Confessions , Meditation, asceticism, extreme self denial, 'practices' , statements of faith , creeds , men with pointy beards , Gurus , vicars , priests , popes , churches , masters, gurus , Modern day prophets, so called, Pastors , organisations, groups, run , your probably in a cult , or your being deceived. Spiritually abused at worst .

I think the only difference between modern prophets and ancient ones is a whole heap of time and special pleading.
In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

For those who follow a religion or spiritual teaching, do you feel it is so that you HAVE TO be only one way, you can only have one set of thoughts and can not think outside of the religious scripture you follow?

If you then meet people from your own faith, and they say things that is more free thinker than 100% as the scripture say, do you find your self thinking, He/She is not of my religion, because how they think or believe must be wrong.

What if those you meet have understood deeper wisdom from the scripture, and by this see that being more free thinker is actually fully ok? would you think you could be more free thinker too?

(I guess this thread is more toward Abrahamic believers, but feel free to take part, no matter what you believe)

Can you give a precise example of a scenario where one person says something outside of scripture and which particular verse you are referring to that he is outside of?

 

[SalixIncendium]

For those who follow a religion or spiritual teaching, do you feel it is so that you HAVE TO be only one way, you can only have one set of thoughts and can not think outside of the religious scripture you follow?

If you then meet people from your own faith, and they say things that is more free thinker than 100% as the scripture say, do you find your self thinking, He/She is not of my religion, because how they think or believe must be wrong.

What if those you meet have understood deeper wisdom from the scripture, and by this see that being more free thinker is actually fully ok? would you think you could be more free thinker too?

(I guess this thread is more toward Abrahamic believers, but feel free to take part, no matter what you believe)

I guess this doesn't apply to my path. There are many schools of philosophy within Hinduism. There is no "one way" or "one set of thoughts." I would guess it's closer to 1.2 billion sets of thoughts.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Can you give a precise example of a scenario where one person says something outside of scripture and which particular verse you are referring to that he is outside of?

Dear @firedragon, I do seldom use scripture in discussion or debate here in RF, because even i do believe the words of Allah, i can not teach Sufism or Islam to others, therefor i only use my own words when discussing.
So my OP`s are not for academica discussion or scripturual discussion
This is a bit about the content of the OP too. to be able to discuss without being bound to a single verse or to scripture. but use our own understanding and then give our own answer. not scriptual answer.

Why? Because when i speak in RF it is not only to muslims or others who take Islam in to their teaching. Everyone is welcome to discuss Their own understanding, of the teachng they follow.

I am not here to preach only Sufism or only Islam.

Hope you understand.

 

[John1.12]

I think the only difference between modern prophets and ancient ones is a whole heap of time and special pleading.
In my opinion.

That's using your own sense making.Thats the freedom God gives ( imo)

 

[SalixIncendium]

Believing that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this age is not by definition orthodoxy, it is a belief.

Orthodoxy: authorized or generally accepted theory, doctrine, or practice.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=what+us+orthodxy

So there are many Baha'i that believe that Baha'u'llah isn't a manifestation of God?

If not, the belief that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God, by your own definition, is Baha'i orthodoxy.

 

[sayak83]

Three, is a magic number.

As any taoist, trinitarian Christian, or engineer will tell you (a triangle is the most stable structure).

Elementary particles come in sets of threes.
So physicists too.
Though there are 4 forces...

 

[firedragon]

Dear @firedragon, I do seldom use scripture in discussion or debate here in RF, because even i do believe the words of Allah, i can not teach Sufism or Islam to others, therefor i only use my own words when discussing.
So my OP`s are not for academica discussion or scripturual discussion
This is a bit about the content of the OP too. to be able to discuss without being bound to a single verse or to scripture. but use our own understanding and then give our own answer. not scriptual answer.

Why? Because when i speak in RF it is not only to muslims or others who take Islam in to their teaching. Everyone is welcome to discuss Their own understanding, of the teachng they follow.

I am not here to preach only Sufism or only Islam.

Hope you understand.

I didnt ask for Islamic scripture brother. I asked a general question. Any scripture. So this is not about Islam, Sufism or anything. Even if its Hindu scripture, I dont really care.

When someone makes a case there should be something specific in mind. Lets say you are speaking of someone making a claim outside of the Hindu scripture. What if it is not outside at all but is perfectly in harmony with the Hindu scripture? One could only know if you specifically say which scripture, and what the claim or quote is.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I didnt ask for Islamic scripture brother. I asked a general question. Any scripture. So this is not about Islam, Sufism or anything. Even if its Hindu scripture, I dont really care.

When someone makes a case there should be something specific in mind. Lets say you are speaking of someone making a claim outside of the Hindu scripture. What if it is not outside at all but is perfectly in harmony with the Hindu scripture? One could only know if you specifically say which scripture, and what the claim or quote is.

This is General Religious Debates, not Specific Religious Debates.

Can't you participate in a discussion without telling others how they should participate in a discussion or what they should contribute? You derailed a thread I was participating in the other day by doing this same crap.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I didnt ask for Islamic scripture brother. I asked a general question. Any scripture. So this is not about Islam, Sufism or anything. Even if its Hindu scripture, I dont really care.

When someone makes a case there should be something specific in mind. Lets say you are speaking of someone making a claim outside of the Hindu scripture. What if it is not outside at all but is perfectly in harmony with the Hindu scripture? One could only know if you specifically say which scripture, and what the claim or quote is.

Well the answer should come from those who take part in the discussion I think the OP is fairly clear of what it ask, dont you think?

 

[firedragon]

Well the answer should come from those who take part in the discussion I think the OP is fairly clear of what it ask, dont you think?

Not to me brother. But thanks.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

This is General Religious Debates, not Specific Religious Debates.

Can't you participate in a discussion without telling others how they should participate in a discussion or what they should contribute? You derailed a thread I was participating in the other day by doing this same crap.

No.

1. Maybe you thought "hey its time for revenge", but another thread is not relevant here, so discussing another thread will derail this thread.

2. Also, maybe there should be a rule that says "you cannot ask specific questions in the forum called "general religious debates". Please do advice on that. It will help your case.

Cheers.

 

[Faithofchristian]

For those who follow a religion or spiritual teaching, do you feel it is so that you HAVE TO be only one way, you can only have one set of thoughts and can not think outside of the religious scripture you follow?

If you then meet people from your own faith, and they say things that is more free thinker than 100% as the scripture say, do you find your self thinking, He/She is not of my religion, because how they think or believe must be wrong.

What if those you meet have understood deeper wisdom from the scripture, and by this see that being more free thinker is actually fully ok? would you think you could be more free thinker too?

(I guess this thread is more toward Abrahamic believers, but feel free to take part, no matter what you believe)

Can you carefully explain why I should step outside of the scriptures that I believe to be only one way...

 

[stvdv]

If you then meet people from your own faith, and they say things that is more free thinker than 100% as the scripture say, do you find your self thinking, He/She is not of my religion, because how they think or believe must be wrong.

IF I would have such a thought THEN I am the one who must be wrong, BECAUSE "Thou shall not judge" is one of the Major Commandments I adhere to, here

 

[Spirit of Light]

Can you carefully explain why I should step outside of the scriptures that I believe to be only one way...

I do not ask people to do anything I only asked about their thoughts about it.
In my own path i do use the teaching as a guide to how i best can live as a sufi, but i also think for my self when i read scripture. and i ask maybe 50 questions toward my own understanding of it every day.

 

[stvdv]

I disagree with that, the orthodoxy is that you have to believe Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this age.
In my opinion.

Is that what Bahaullah has said Himself?
Or is this how followers interpret it?

"you have to believe Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this age."
That is what Baha'u'llah wrote, it is one of the Twin Duties.
“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

Thank you for the quote

I do not see the name "Bahaullah" mentioned in the quote (or me or mine or I). Very interesting/intriguing. Seems Divine Inspiration to me

All colorful descriptions "Day Spring of His Revelation" ... "who representeth the Godhead" ...
These descriptions could mean also Krishna, Jesus, Sai Baba, Rama etc. and of course also Bahaullah. But not exclusively Bahaullah

Its a fascinating question which I dont know the answer to without further study

Indeed fascinating, that Bahaullah uses these descriptions and not mentions His own Name, or use words as (I, me, mine etc.)

@stvdv I think @Trailblazer 's post #11 covers your question in Baha'u'llah's style of writing.

Indeed the style of writing is interesting. It points to "being not exclusive" IMO.

So, I am still not convinced about this kind of exclusive idea

you have to believe Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this age.
In my opinion.

@stvdvRF