If you believe in reincarnation...

[George-ananda]

Things like our body, mind, soul, spirit/consciousness, held together by the desire for "self". As long as that desire remains, the illusion of "self" (as expressed through rebirth of the body, mind, etc.) continues the unending process of rebirth.

By what mechanism can these things continue on after death?

I personally believe in a non-permanent soul that exists through many incarnations. This is actually a subtle body on the Causal realm of nature that causes the new incarnations. Perhaps the western concept of a permanent soul is getting in the way here.

 

[buddhist]

By what mechanism can these things continue on after death?

I personally believe in a non-permanent soul that exists through many incarnations. This is actually a subtle body on the Causal realm of nature that causes the new incarnations. Perhaps the western concept of a permanent soul is getting in the way here.

These things continue due to ignorance regarding desire for and attachment to existence, to fulfill the identity of "self". For example, most ordinary people are not aware that they crave existence and things in existence in their attempt to relieve various sufferings they believe their "self" experience.

To provide a more concrete example: we might purchase a new toy, gadget, car, house, etc., in our ignorance, to fulfill a longing to extingush boredom, lack of stimulation, etc. - all are merely different forms of suffering. Even if the purchase of those items might provide a momentary sense of pleasure which distracts one's "self" from its sense of suffering, these things in reality add to one's collective suffering (e.g. how to pay for it, sufferings accumulated through work, maintaining it, protecting it, etc.). Habituation to the object also causes suffering, when one realizes one no longer derives pleasure from it, driving the individual in his ignorance to seek out another object to take its place in order to experience more pleasure. The round of samsara is thus turned, repeatedly.

The key towards relieving suffering is not to fulfill the apparent needs of the "self", but to eliminate the delusion of the "self" altogether. The former is merely but a temporary distraction, not the solution.

 

[George-ananda]

These things continue due to ignorance regarding desire for and attachment to existence. For example, most ordinary people are not aware that they crave existence and things in existence in their attempt to relieve various sufferings they experience.

My question was at death what is the mechanism by which there is a continuation to the next life. How (not why) is there a continuation. A materialist would say that at death, that is it and there is no mechanism for a continuation of craving.

This is where I was suggesting a non-permanent body on the causal plane that remains for many incarnations.

 

[buddhist]

My question was at death what is the mechanism by which there is a continuation to the next life. How (not why) is there a continuation. A materialist would say that at death, that is it and there is no mechanism for a continuation of craving.

This is where I was suggesting a non-permanent body on the causal plane that remains for many incarnations.

I agree; IMO one which clings to gross material form and gross sensual desires might find himself reborn in a gross material body in the gross material realm (the kamadhatu) after physical death.

An individual who develops jhanic strength to the level where he no longer possesses an attachment to gross material form might find himself reborn in a fine material body (deva or lower brahma realms, the rupadhatu aka astral plane).

One who develops the highest levels of jhanic strength, and has eliminated attachments to sensual desire and fine material forms, might find himself reborn in the formless (highest brahma, arupadhatu) realms.

The arahant who has eliminated all attachments to gross material, fine material, or even formlessness, through destruction of desire for existence itself, has achieved nibbana.

So, one can exist within gross material (physical) bodies, within fine material (astral) bodies, or even within formless absorptions (e.g. pure consciousness). This seems to correspond to many Eastern systems, and the findings of some Western methods which explore the occult.

 

[George-ananda]

I agree; IMO one which clings to gross material form and gross sensual desires might find himself reborn in a gross material body in the gross material realm (the kamadhatu) after physical death.

An individual who develops jhanic strength to the level where he no longer possesses an attachment to gross material form might find himself reborn in a fine material body (deva or lower brahma realms, the rupadhatu aka astral plane).

One who develops the highest levels of jhanic strength, and has eliminated attachments to sensual desire and fine material forms, might find himself reborn in the formless (highest brahma, arupadhatu) realms.

I agree with this basic thinking. My question is what is it that is reborn in these various realms? What makes the rebirth the continuation of the same ego? A materialist would say there is nothing and that there is no rebirth. Buddhism seems to leave this vague. I think this is where eastern, theosophical and occult teachings tell us of the mechanism.

So, one can exist within gross material (physical) bodies, within fine material (astral) bodies, or even within formless absorptions (e.g. pure consciousness).

This seems to correspond to many Eastern systems, and the findings of some Western methods which explore the occult.

This is why I personally like a blending of Buddhist, Hindu and occult thought. Here is my accumulated understanding. Man is composed of interpenetrating physical/etheric/astral/mental bodies. At death when the physical is dropped, the same ego and personality continues in the astral/mental body on the sub-planes for which its development fits. When successively the astral and mental bodies are dropped, that ray of Brahman experiences through the causal body (soul) and usually spawning a new incarnation. I believe nothing of what I say contradicts anything in early Buddhism; it just explains details left vague.

 

[buddhist]

I agree with this basic thinking. My question is what is it that is reborn in these various realms? What makes the rebirth the continuation of the same ego? A materialist would say there is nothing and that there is no rebirth. Buddhism seems to leave this vague. I think this is where eastern, theosophical and occult teachings tell us of the mechanism.

Obviously, there is rebirth, through every moment of our lives. You're right that Buddhism leaves the question "what undergoes rebirth?" vague. Perhaps the Buddha was correct in not addressing the question, as I can see how it leads to continued attachment to samsara, instead of freedom.

This is why I personally like a blending of Buddhist, Hindu and occult thought. Here is my accumulated understanding. Man is composed of interpenetrating physical/etheric/astral/mental bodies. At death when the physical is dropped, the same ego and personality continues in the astral/mental body on the sub-planes for which its development fits. When successively the astral and mental bodies are dropped, that ray of Brahman experiences through the causal body (soul) and usually spawning a new incarnation. I believe nothing of what I say contradicts anything in early Buddhism; it just explains details left vague.

I agree with your assessment; it is not incompatible with early Buddhism as I understand it. It's just that Buddha didn't talk about it because it did not lead to the ultimate goal as he saw it, and that such speculations would only lead to confusion, leading deeper into samsara, for those who are less spiritually developed. IMO many of these metaphysical questions would be answered and directly known by those who are well advanced along the spiritual path.

 

[George-ananda]

Obviously, there is rebirth, through every moment of our lives.

I never like that use of the word 'rebirth' for what is really continual incremental change. I think the word implies something more dramatic but maybe that's just me.

You're right that Buddhism leaves the question "what undergoes rebirth?" vague. Perhaps the Buddha was correct in not addressing the question, as I can see how it leads to continued attachment to samsara, instead of freedom.

I agree with your assessment; it is not incompatible with early Buddhism as I understand it. It's just that Buddha didn't talk about it because it did not lead to the ultimate goal as he saw it, and that such speculations would only lead to confusion, leading deeper into samsara, for those who are less spiritually developed. IMO many of these metaphysical questions would be answered and directly known by those who are well advanced along the spiritual path.

I agree with all this. The details are more important to me perhaps because without a better understanding I might question the existence of any afterlife.

 

[buddhist]

I never like that use of the word 'rebirth' for what is really continual incremental change. I think the word implies something more dramatic but maybe that's just me.

I like the term "rebirth" because of the fact that it does highlight "continual incremental change", providing a more concrete and visible example to dispel the illusion that we are permanent, as is believed in various ways in other religions. IMO it helps lead others to the conclusion that "reincarnation" (the more dramatic change) might be correct.

I agree with all this. The details are more important to me perhaps because without a better understanding I might question the existence of any afterlife.

I have those questions too, and I suppose it is one motivation for me to go higher into jhana to experience such states for myself.

 

[Abhishek Bhanwaria]

For those who believe in reincarnation, does it at all depress you that all of your wisdom from this life might not be carried over or remembered in the next life?

For example - in this life you believe reincarnation to be true, for whatever reason. You might have thought hard to come to the conclusion of reincarnation. In the next life, you are statistically likely to live a life ignorant of that conclusion. Does this not bother you, that in the next life you may not be as philosophical or as wise as you've become in this life?

I am a believer of reincarnation and spirituality. Today while I was thinking deeply about my existence and the purpose of my life, I discovered that God has left clues for us in the world that validates its existence and what he wants us to do in order to leave the endless cycle of birth and death( called rebirth or reincarnation). I feel that a human or any other organism should not be considered mere a physical being as it is an underestimation of its existence. The physical body consist of a non physical being which can never be born nor die in the spiritual world but be reborn in the physical one until the completion of his duties and acquiring of needed characteristics. Consider the idea of school, a student have to learn the required classes and pass them in order to be promoted to higher grade, a student who get admitted in 12th grade in a new school is thought to have previous knowledge of all the grades leading to 12th grade. Thus, it can be inferred that we can not directly be born as a human without the previous knowledge of certain things which the soul acquires from non-human beings. Every being have a soul and the souls of humans has already travelled through many life forms and has acquired the characteristics of them which finally enable it to be born as a human. The grades in a school starts with the simple and get hard as it continues and high school is the hardest of all like the soul starts with living inside a single celled organism then amoeba, insects and so on and the last one is of human which is the hardest stage of all. Although all of the characteristics present in non-human species are positive and worthwhile as they do not have the greedy mind like human. Because of this greedy nature of the human specie which is caused by its connection with the temporary happiness either caused by fellow human beings or materials like money and wealth, the soul within is bound with the temporary world outside our body and form our own purpose in life ignoring spiritual awakening and the idea of god which does not fit with their desires and theory of life. Thus, the soul is bond to reincarnation or rebirth in human species until the soul discover the purpose of life as a human and commit itself to God which does not mean to meditate throughout your life, but to do what is told by the gods through the writings present in the sacred texts (of whatever religion which appeals to them as I think all of them sum up to the same thing) and clues presented on earth. This idea of reincarnation not only apply to life but can be applied to nearly anything making it a universal truth for example if you are dieting and eating the right food to get in the best shape, you need to follow a strict routine which involves that you have to go far away from the bad things which appeals to you and taste good but have a negative effect on your health and get closer to the good stuff and if you don’t, you have to start from the very beginning which will make it even more frustrating and time consuming. This idea correspond to the idea of reincarnation which also means the same. do good get good and do nothing start again because god is our best friend and does not want us to be in a place like hell when we do nothing because it is only made for the souls that have more bad than good characteristics in them and have to be born again after the punishment that it get and decides to start again with a new beginning which can be either as a human or a single celled organism based on the badness of its karma. The soul have a choice to go to either God or heaven. If the soul decides to enjoy the beauty of heaven and live like a king up there which is the result of how well it behaved in the physical world, the soul have to return after a certain time. But if it decides to go with God ignoring the heaven, it stays with the God for infinity and is not required to be reincarnated onto the earth.

 

[syo]

For those who believe in reincarnation, does it at all depress you that all of your wisdom from this life might not be carried over or remembered in the next life?

maybe a little.

 

[BSM1]

For those who believe in reincarnation, does it at all depress you that all of your wisdom from this life might not be carried over or remembered in the next life?

For example - in this life you believe reincarnation to be true, for whatever reason. You might have thought hard to come to the conclusion of reincarnation. In the next life, you are statistically likely to live a life ignorant of that conclusion. Does this not bother you, that in the next life you may not be as philosophical or as wise as you've become in this life?

If you're smart you'll write it all down and mail it to your future self.

 

[Valjean]

Once you achieve Unity you'll be cognizant of all the memory of all living things that ever existed/will exist everywhere in the Universe.

 

[BSM1]

Once you achieve Unity you'll be cognizant of all the memory of all living things that ever existed/will exist everywhere in the Universe.

You want fries with that, lol.