• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

If you can't even say what you mean, then what?

Post #117: 'Male' and 'female' are both biological terms, full stop.

Whatever other meanings have been added to the resultant words 'man' and 'woman' over the years, for whatever other reasons, are neither here nor there. That is why I ignore them and only define a man as an adult human male and a woman as an adult human female.

I'll leave the fantasists to fantasise, but I'll keep my participation in the debate to the parameters of the objective facts.

As for the reply function, I'm not going to fill up the thread with copies of the posts I'm replying to. It's one of the most pointless features of a message board.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
There's a certain point where if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I'm gonna call it as I see it. As a guy who is very concerned with how we label things, this should make sense to you. You call yourself a supporter of trans people while trotting out every anti-trans talking point in the book. I've patiently and civilly entertained them while you avoid actually substantiating your claims. At a certain point, the rubber meets the road for me.

Pot, meet kettle.

Currently the term usually used for that is gender dysphoria. Again if you had actually read the links I provided, you'd know that.

Again with the mind reading! You're not good at it! The reason I didn't use that term is because it's not an umbrella term. Because as I'm sure you know, not all trans people have gender dysphoria. So that disqualifies that term.

Well thank you for saying that! So by that logic, we don't stop trans people from using the bathroom of their gender, or competing against other people of their gender in their sport, or shame people for their consensual kinks and make them feel like sexual predators because bad actors can abuse those protections against discrimination. What a beautiful argument! Thank you. :)

Please tell me how you got from "labels as tools of communication" to bathrooms?

So again, the question you didn't want to answer is that the whole reason you're bringing this up is because she happened to win this race

Oh my goodness, again with the inaccurate mind reading! The putting of words into my mouth.

I'm happy to try to pursue this important topic with you, but I'd respectfully request that you restrain from putting words in my mouth.

thanks!
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Pot, meet kettle.

In what way am I claiming to be a trans supporter while persistently making anti-trans arguments?

Again with the mind reading! You're not good at it! The reason I didn't use that term is because it's not an umbrella term. Because as I'm sure you know, not all trans people have gender dysphoria. So that disqualifies that term.

It is the term used for the condition of folks who seeks gender affirming surgery, since the issue being addressed by the surgery is gender dysphoria.

Please tell me how you got from "labels as tools of communication" to bathrooms?

The logic is identical.

So was I right to suspect that you oppose allowing trans people to use the public restroom that matches their gender?

Oh my goodness, again with the inaccurate mind reading! The putting of words into my mouth.

I'm happy to try to pursue this important topic with you, but I'd respectfully request that you restrain from putting words in my mouth.

thanks!

If you'd answer the actual questions I put to you instead of talking around them, I wouldn't have to guess what you mean from context. So again - for the 3rd time - if she'd gotten 3rd place in that race the other day, would you be crying foul? I highly suspect not.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Post #117: 'Male' and 'female' are both biological terms, full stop.

But that biology is not limited merely to whether a person produces eggs or sperm. So if you want to talk about the objective facts, it's your job to consider all of them, not just the ones that fit your preconceived idea.

Whatever other meanings have been added to the resultant words 'man' and 'woman' over the years, for whatever other reasons, are neither here nor there. That is why I ignore them and only define a man as an adult human male and a woman as an adult human female.

I'll leave the fantasists to fantasise, but I'll keep my participation in the debate to the parameters of the objective facts.

So again, as I asked you before - if a person does not have ovaries or egg-producing ovaries, they are not a woman?

As for the reply function, I'm not going to fill up the thread with copies of the posts I'm replying to. It's one of the most pointless features of a message board.

Then be prepared for your replies to be missed more often by the people to whom you're replying.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
In what way am I claiming to be a trans supporter while persistently making anti-trans arguments?

you said:
I've patiently and civilly entertained them while you avoid actually substantiating your claims

This was what my pot / kettle comment was in response to.

It is the term used for the condition of folks who seeks gender affirming surgery, since the issue being addressed by the surgery is gender dysphoria.

Okay, so is it correct to call gender dysphoria a disorder?

The logic is identical.

So was I right to suspect that you oppose allowing trans people to use the public restroom that matches their gender?

You'll have to connect some dots there. How are those two things logically the same?

And, again with the mind reading. I think lurkers could be having a good time playing "mind reading" bingo :)

If you'd answer the actual questions I put to you instead of talking around them, I wouldn't have to guess what you mean from context. So again - for the 3rd time - if she'd gotten 3rd place in that race the other day, would you be crying foul? I highly suspect not.

Regardless of what you think, I think we are allies on this topic. The difference I think is that I respect our opponents. Some of the "solutions" put forward on behalf of the trans community have issues. We have to address those issues honestly if we're going to prevail.

I'd be happy to start with a clean slate. I believe you have failed to answer many of my questions, and I'm not interested in a chicken / egg historical analysis. So what do you say to starting fresh, and I'll answer any questions you feel I haven't answered and you'll agree to answer any questions I feel you haven't answered?

I'll be back tomorrow for more interesting conversation.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
you said:

This was what my pot / kettle comment was in response to.

As I've already explained to you, the difference between us is that you made claims and I asked you to substantiate them. You asked me to reply to questions about claims I never made, without bothering to substantiate your own. So no, the two aren't equivalent.

Okay, so is it correct to call gender dysphoria a disorder?

I don't know, you'd have to consult a mental health professional on whether it technically constitutes one. It's a diagnosis in the DSM, though there's controversy about that.

You'll have to connect some dots there. How are those two things logically the same?

We have a tool. (Labels/policies)
That tool is useful. (Helps us distinguish and understand things/protects people from discrimination.)
The fact that people may abuse the tool is not a reason to not use the tool.

And, again with the mind reading. I think lurkers could be having a good time playing "mind reading" bingo :)

You could easily disprove my hypothesis by just saying what you think about transgender public bathroom use and contradicting my prediction.

Regardless of what you think, I think we are allies on this topic. The difference I think is that I respect our opponents. Some of the "solutions" put forward on behalf of the trans community have issues. We have to address those issues honestly if we're going to prevail.

The notion that I'm not addressing the issues honestly because I don't agree with you is not exactly a sign of respect.

I'd be happy to start with a clean slate. I believe you have failed to answer many of my questions, and I'm not interested in a chicken / egg historical analysis. So what do you say to starting fresh, and I'll answer any questions you feel I haven't answered and you'll agree to answer any questions I feel you haven't answered?

No. The way we can start with a clean slate is by you actually substantiating what you said about detransitioning with actual statistics. Or conceding that your claim went too far and you don't actually have the evidence to support your assertion. Then once we've gotten there, I'll consider any relevant questions of yours about claims I've actually made.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
No. The way we can start with a clean slate is by you actually substantiating what you said about detransitioning with actual statistics. Or conceding that your claim went too far and you don't actually have the evidence to support your assertion. Then once we've gotten there, I'll consider any relevant questions of yours about claims I've actually made.

Have a fine day.
 
Post #124: Whether they would be able to produce offspring by procreating with a male or a female is pretty much all there is to the question of whether they are male or female. As far as those with no ability to procreate, through developmental abnormalities, it would be a question of what abnormality it is. A female that has failed to develop ovaries is biologically different from a male that has failed to produce testes.

There is a hierarchy of sexual features which an anthropologist, biologist or pathologist could go down in order to find out which one is which. They would all, however, be objective features and could be determined from an unconscious patient or a cadaver.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Post #124: Whether they would be able to produce offspring by procreating with a male or a female is pretty much all there is to the question of whether they are male or female.
That is simply not true. Many females are infertile.

As far as those with no ability to procreate, through developmental abnormalities, it would be a question of what abnormality it is. A female that has failed to develop ovaries is biologically different from a male that has failed to produce testes.

It is not merely a question of abnormalities. Every human female loses fertility at some point in her life, if she lives long enough. That isn't abnormal, it's normal.

There is a hierarchy of sexual features which an anthropologist, biologist or pathologist could go down in order to find out which one is which. They would all, however, be objective features and could be determined from an unconscious patient or a cadaver.

One of the well-documented findings of male-female differences are brain differences, such as how they respond to certain stimuli. Were you aware of that?
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Post #117: 'Male' and 'female' are both biological terms, full stop.

Whatever other meanings have been added to the resultant words 'man' and 'woman' over the years, for whatever other reasons, are neither here nor there. That is why I ignore them and only define a man as an adult human male and a woman as an adult human female.
As they say in legal terms, ignorance is no excuse. You ignoring that woman has long been a sociological topic spanning far afield of chromosomes and gonads, long before either of us were born, doesn't change that it has been.

You don't actually judge woman and men by lifting their skirts or checking their genes. Certainly not by asking if they have had children. You make day to day judgements about gender identity of women and men based on various cultural signifiers of presentation.

I'll leave the fantasists to fantasise, but I'll keep my participation in the debate to the parameters of the objective facts.
Prejudice is not the same as objectivity.

As for the reply function, I'm not going to fill up the thread with copies of the posts I'm replying to. It's one of the most pointless features of a message board.
It's easier to reread the post or part of post you're specifically responding to than go back to 'post #117'. Nobody considers outlining what you're replying to 'filling up the forums.' But you do you.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Sure, but in this case I have plenty of evidence :)
For example?

I try to respect everyone's time, and I will stand by my claim, honestly.
I have seen plenty of evidence of the exact opposite, including in this thread, where you have steadfastly avoided to substantiate your claims and back up your positions with reasoning and logically coherent argumentation.

To me, if you're a SJW or a trans-activist or whatever, own it.
So you will persist in derogatory terminology because... why, exactly?

Some people will take exception to your declaration, but at least it's honest and respectful.
Actually, the rules of these boards forbid name calling and attacking other posters verbally, so people would actually take very strong exception, and the staff would follow up with repercussions for such a blatant disregard of discoursive culture.

This is why you have never actually done as you claim, as far as I have observed, instead using these derogatory terms in a broader, generalized way to paint disagreements with a broad brush and dismiss any people who disagree with you outright.

In addition, I'm always open to using different category labels if mine aren't correct.
You have just argued the exact opposite in this very same post, and have so far refused to adapt your derogatory terminology throughout this entire thread. For this reason, I would have to conclude that your claim here is nothing but an empty boast that you cannot substantiate.

But I think it's often disingenuous to argue from a perspective but not own up to it
So you "own up" that you are deliberately engaging in derogatory and inflammatory speech.
What for, exactly? Is there a reason for this, other than a reflexive need to verbally degrade people you perceive to be your opponents?
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Post #117: 'Male' and 'female' are both biological terms, full stop.

Whatever other meanings have been added to the resultant words 'man' and 'woman' over the years, for whatever other reasons, are neither here nor there. That is why I ignore them and only define a man as an adult human male and a woman as an adult human female.
So children are neither male nor female, in your eyes?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
No. The way we can start with a clean slate is by you actually substantiating what you said about detransitioning with actual statistics. Or conceding that your claim went too far and you don't actually have the evidence to support your assertion. Then once we've gotten there, I'll consider any relevant questions of yours about claims I've actually made.

Earlier in this thread I posted a link to an article. As you certainly recall from the article (ha!), there is a detrans forum on reddit. This forum has well over 27,000 members. This forum has a LOT of links and resources for its members.

Here's a link: https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Earlier in this thread I posted a link to an article. As you certainly recall from the article (ha!), there is a detrans forum on reddit. This forum has well over 27,000 members.
And nobody knows how many of these members are unique (that is, not one or several alternate accounts, which are trivial to create because Reddit does not even ask for a valid email address in order to register), how many of these unique accounts used to be transgender, and how many of them still are.

So, based on these facts available to us, the purpoted membership of actual, unique transgender people in that subreddit varies somewhere between 27,000 and zero.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Earlier in this thread I posted a link to an article. As you certainly recall from the article (ha!), there is a detrans forum on reddit. This forum has well over 27,000 members. This forum has a LOT of links and resources for its members.

Here's a link: https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

Anyone can join a reddit forum, can they not?

I asked for numbers/stats of actual detransitions (along with a definition of what degree of detransition is being talked about).
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Here's some actual facts concerning detransitioning:

There is very little evidence on the number of people who have detransitioned.
In a study [1] of 100 detransitioners, only 24% of respondents informed their clinicians that they had detransitioned. The vast majority made no attempt to contact their clinics.

Not only does this mean that we have no way of ascertaining how many people detransition, it also potentially impact clinics’ assessments of patient satisfaction.

One paper [2] claimed that the detransition rate was 13.1%. However, this research relies on data from the U.S. Transgender Survey, which was conducted via community outreach organizations, and may therefore have excluded detransitioners who were no longer in touch with any such organizations. Only people who still identified as members of the trans community were included:

The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey (USTS) was conducted by the National Center for Transgender Equality (NCTE) to examine the experiences of transgender adults in the United States.

By contrast, the study by Lisa Littman [1] sought respondents from a political and ideological variety of sources.

In a recent retrospective case-note review [3], performed as a service evaluation over twelve months, 6.9% of participants met the case definition of detransitioning, yet 21.7% disengaged from the study.

In general, detransitioners remain an underserved population in healthcare, with far more research required to understand their needs [4].

REFERENCES

[1] Littman, L. (2021). Individuals Treated for Gender Dysphoria with Medical and/or Surgical Transition Who Subsequently Detransitioned: A Survey of 100 Detransitioners. Arch Sex Behav. [Link]

[2] Turban, J.L., Loo, S.S., Almazan, A.N., & Keuroghlian, A.S. (2021). Factors Leading to “Detransition” Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis. LGBT health 8(4): 273-280. [Link]

[3] Hall, R., Mitchell, L., & Sachdeva, J. (2021). Access to care and frequency of detransition among a cohort discharged by a UK national adult gender identity clinic: Retrospective case-note review. BJPsych Open 7(6): E184. [Link]

[4] Expósito-Campos, P. (2021). A Typology of Gender Detransition and Its Implications for Healthcare Providers. Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy 47 (3): 270-280. [Link]

Source: Detransition – Stats For Gender


Here is some contrary evidence from an openly transgender-friendly clinic:

Detransition Facts and Statistics 2022


Icon_UK.png


For instance, in the UK a survey of 3398 attendees of a gender identity clinic found that just sixteen – about 0.47% – experienced transition-related regret. Of these, even fewer went on to actually detransition.

Icon_USA-150x150.png


In the US, a survey of nearly 28,000 people found that only eight percent of respondents reported some kind of detransition. Of these, sixty-two percent only did so temporarily.

sweden-flag.jpeg


In Sweden, a fifty-year longitudinal study on a cohort of 767 transgender people found that around two percent of participants expressed regret following gender-affirming surgery, although it is unclear how many of these participants were detransitioning as a consequence.

netherlands-flag-150x150.jpg


In the Netherlands, a study of transgender young people found that only 1.9% of young people on puberty blockers did not want to continue with the medical transition.

Source: Detransition Facts and Statistics 2022: Exploding the Myths Around Detransitioning

As a layperson with no background in either medicine or gender studies, I obviously can't say anything about how authoritative these two sources are. They were literally the first hits that came up when I searched for "detransition statistics".
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Anyone can join a reddit forum, can they not?

I asked for numbers/stats of actual detransitions (along with a definition of what degree of detransition is being talked about).

@Kooky just provided some data on this point, thanks @Kooky.

As @Kooky mentioned, this is not an easy topic to get stats on. It used to be that a person needed to go thru two years of counseling before they could proceed with transitioning. That's since been relaxed, but I'm not sure that the relaxing was such a good idea. There is a lot of detrans-ing going on, and that's not something that should be ignored.

So it appears that no one can answer your question precisely @Left Coast. That's true with many complex topics. In general we make considered opinions when it comes to dealing with problem areas, even if the science isn't perfect. I can use climate change as an example. I suspect that you're not a climate change denier, even though the science isn't perfect?

So why do you believe in climate change (if you do), but you're so insistent on having perfect data concerning detrans-ing?
 
Top