If you Knew Here was Hell Would you Act Differently?

[Riverwolf]

Yes, Eve blamed the serpent ( Satan ) and Adam blamed God for God giving Eve to him.
The biggest problem with ' eternal paradise ' and ' eternal torment ' is that eternal torture is Not what the Bible really teaches.

I understand that. But Western Christianity is based on popular conceptions, extra-canonical texts, and old political propaganda, as much as the actual contents of the Bible.

And no, that´s not the biggest problem with eternal tormet. It´s biggest problem is exactly what I said: it´s theological vengeance. Doesn´t matter whether it´s in a particular religious text/canon or not.

...incidentally, "hell" is actually a great translation for "sheol", because as I understand it, they´re basically the same thing. Hell originally came from a Proto-Indo-European root that meant ´covered´ or ´concealed´ (and is thus the very root in such words as ´helmet´), and among Migration Age Tribes, was a word that denoted a vague notion of "grave", or some shadowy/icy realm; think of the Hellenic Asphodel.

That´s why I referred to the Western Christian concept of the afterlife, eternal torment as punishment for breaking arbitrary rules, by its Italian name of Inferno.

As far as ' eternal paradise ' that is what was offered to Adam before his downfall. As long as Adam did Not break God's Law, then Adam could live forever in the paradisaical garden of Eden forever on earth. Jesus promised the majority of mankind that the time would come when we could live forever on earth - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29;

Count me out. Eternal life sounds absolutely torturous. Besides, he also promised that it would happen before his contemporaries died, so it´s pretty empty by this point.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I understand that. But Western Christianity is based on popular conceptions, extra-canonical texts, and old political propaganda, as much as the actual contents of the Bible.
And no, that´s not the biggest problem with eternal tormet. It´s biggest problem is exactly what I said: it´s theological vengeance. Doesn´t matter whether it´s in a particular religious text/canon or not.
...incidentally, "hell" is actually a great translation for "sheol", because as I understand it, they´re basically the same thing. Hell originally came from a Proto-Indo-European root that meant ´covered´ or ´concealed´ (and is thus the very root in such words as ´helmet´), and among Migration Age Tribes, was a word that denoted a vague notion of "grave", or some shadowy/icy realm; think of the Hellenic Asphodel.
That´s why I referred to the Western Christian concept of the afterlife, eternal torment as punishment for breaking arbitrary rules, by its Italian name of Inferno.
Count me out. Eternal life sounds absolutely torturous. Besides, he also promised that it would happen before his contemporaries died, so it´s pretty empty by this point.

Where did Jesus say before his contemporaries died ?
Didn't Jesus make it clear - Luke 19:11-13; Luke 19:14-15 - that Jesus, as the nobleman, would first have to journey off to a far country ( heaven ) before returning later in kingdom power or glory. The ' glory time ' of Matthew 25:31-33 is future.
The parable or illustration of the talents given also shows a long passing of time before Jesus return.

Plus, why would John bother to write Revelation at the end of the first century if Jesus ' glory time ' was in the first century.
The setting for Revelation was future - Revelation 1:10 - Not back then.
Gospel writer Luke wrote at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 that a great apostasy would be setting in.

What is torturous about having perfect health forever on earth ? Can you come up with a better health-care plan ?
- Isaiah 33:24; Revelation 22:2

 

[wizanda]

If I truly believed all that, I would have no choice but to become a Luciferian and fight this god with every ounce of my being.

Which God? We're in Hell for being scummy; so why would you want to fight God, for what? Here is really nice for a prison for mental patients; it could be far worse.

Also why would you become a Luciferian?

 

[Shusha]

Which God? We're in Hell for being scummy; so why would you want to fight God, for what? Here is really nice for a prison for mental patients; it could be far worse.

Also why would you become a Luciferian?

I am not scummy. And I know all the arguments from here. They all boil down to me either being inherently scummy just by being human or to me being scummy because I fail to live up to impossible standards imposed by a god who is ultimately cruel and pointlessly demanding.

 

[wizanda]

They all boil down to me either being inherently scummy just by being human

Why would you become a Rabbinic Jew or Christian then, as they both believe that?

or to me being scummy because I fail to live up to impossible standards imposed by a god who is ultimately cruel and pointlessly demanding.

That is the point in this hypothetical question; God's true criteria aren't cruel or demanding, in this world full of corruption, manipulative religious men have imposed their views on the world.... Whereas really all God wants us to do, is to learn Oneness; where as religions often cause the opposite of making people racist, argumentative, and religiously bigoted.

Plus consider how nice it is here in Hell; it shows God to be kind to the sinners, even though some of us still want to fight God.

 

[Shusha]

Why would you become a Rabbinic Jew or Christian then, as they both believe that?

That is the point in this hypothetical question; God's true criteria aren't cruel or demanding, in this world full of corruption, manipulative religious men have imposed their views on the world.... Whereas really all God wants us to do, is to learn Oneness; where as religions often cause the opposite of making people racist, argumentative, and religiously bigoted.

Plus consider how nice it is here in Hell; it shows God to be kind to the sinners, even though some of us still want to fight God.

Judaism most assuredly does NOT believe that people are scummy.

And G-d's criteria for His Creation is either reasonable and perfectly achievable or it is too high a standard with consequences which are cruel in light of this. Choose.

 

[wizanda]

Judaism most assuredly does NOT believe that people are scummy.

Yetzer_hara

 

[Riverwolf]

Where did Jesus say before his contemporaries died ?

Matthew 24:34. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Plus, why would John bother to write Revelation at the end of the first century if Jesus ' glory time ' was in the first century.

Because Christian writers back then were just as eager to believe it would still happen as Christians are today. It´s actually a well-known psychological phenomenon that when we believe something that strongly, it´s almost impossible to let go of. Even when things are clearly not consistent with the strongly-held belief, we come up with all kinds of justifications and excuses so we don´t have to give up on the thing we hold so dear (in this case, trying to reinterpret what ´generation´ "really means"). This effect is strengthened by social reinforcement. I´ve done it, too. Likely still do, in many ways.

What is torturous about having perfect health forever on earth ?

The key word is "forever". On and on...
and on...
and on...
...
and on...
...and on...

Without the inevitability of Death, Life has no meaning. If there was no inevitability of Death, why do anything at all? Why not just sleep forever, since you can always just do those things you want some other time with no limitations? Eternal life means eternal monotany. That´s just... unimaginably torturous.

Death is the Mother of Life.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yetzer_hara

If Wikipedia seems to talk about something that doesn´t seem to exist when talking to people who actually practice Judaism, I can only conclude that Wikipedia´s opening paragraph isn´t explaining a very nuanced topic very well.

I´ll trust actual Jewish people to explain their religion and its concepts over Wikipedia.

 

[Shusha]

Yetzer_hara

Yes. I am fully aware of the concept. Judaism does not teach that yetzer hara = people are scummy. Nor does it teach that people, being scummy, have the hell consequences which you claim in your OP. So...

Let's get back to your claim about scummy people. Are they all scummy? Can they avoid scumminess? Why or why not?

 

[b.finton]

Yes, Eve blamed the serpent ( Satan ) and Adam blamed God for God giving Eve to him.

I disagree, entirely.

http://crowndiamond.org/cd/falling.html

b.

 

[wizanda]

Matthew 24:34. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Take into account Gilgul (reincarnation) happens, so they're still here, and an age is until the end of this era (Yuga), i.e. the 2nd temple was destroyed in their time, the abomination of desolation was established, the other bits are happening, finishing off soon.....

Again back to the OP; what if you realized this has all happened, that the world already follows the Anti-Christ's teachings, and that by doing so it proves the world is full of evil, escaped from lower than here.

Nor does it teach that people, being scummy, have the hell consequences which you claim in your OP.

The OP asks what if we're in Hell already, and the consequence is that after here no more existence.

Based on the hypothetical question being asked, people are scummy/inherently flawed in someway if they're here.
So within Judaism as expressed here:

'The evil inclination in man, or what is often called man's natural inclination, has been the subject of debate since time immemorial. The traditional Jewish view on this complex subject is well-defined in rabbinic literature.'

Means that man is incapable of his own salvation, as only God can help him out of his natural ways (Yetzer_hara).

Let's get back to your claim about scummy people. Are they all scummy? Can they avoid scumminess? Why or why not?

Since it is based on the hypothetical question, if we're already in Hell, then of course we're all scummy....

Can we aim to be righteous, of course we can try, that is the whole point in us being put here....

So the question still remains, what if here is the top floor of Hell, would it change your perspective on things, if you knew that is where we are?

 

[Senseless]

I don't think so. I live my life best I can without the extra incentives or other motives. It wouldn't matter if there was a heaven or a hell, or if I was already in either; if my idea of good isn't good enough, then so be it, apparently I'm evil.

Wherever I happen to be, I'm dead set on making the most of it while I can. My existence in the present moment is the only thing I'm relatively sure of.

 

[Riverwolf]

Take into account Gilgul (reincarnation) happens, so they're still here, and an age is until the end of this era (Yuga), i.e. the 2nd temple was destroyed in their time, the abomination of desolation was established, the other bits are happening, finishing off soon.....

You´re imposing Puranic theology where it doesn´t belong. There´s no reason to think Jesus didn´t mean exactly what he meant: that Rome would fall and the Eternal Kingdom established before those people physically died. Instead, Rome continued for several more centuries before adopting and Romanizing Christianity, split in two, and though one half politically fell, yet Caesar´s legacy continues to blight the world to this day with no sign of letting up. Sure, different countries through the ages have carried that light with the US being the most recent bearer, but it´s still Caesar´s foulness.

Hindu-style Reincarnation isn´t part of Mediterranean culture, or Jesus´s teachings, and neither is any aspect of Puranic theology.

And just so you´re aware, I´m fairly well-versed in Puranic thought, at least compared to other Western non-Hindu lay-folk.

Again back to the OP; what if you realized this has all happened, that the world already follows the Anti-Christ's teachings, and that by doing so it proves the world is full of evil, escaped from lower than here.

That still doesn´t mean anything. "Anti-Christ" holds no meaning for me, since there was plenty about Jesus´s own teachings that were flawed, and evil is what brings harm to a given group. Good and evil have no objective meaning or existence.

Unless you want to argue that we live in some kind of D&D-esque universe, where we do have objective existences for the entire Alignment spectrum. If so, Lady´s Shadow pass you by.

 

[wizanda]

You´re imposing Puranic theology where it doesn´t belong.

Not in the slightest, if at the end of Kali Yuga we come to an age of Godliness (Satya); it is the exact same thing described in the Messianic age.

There´s no reason to think Jesus didn´t mean exactly what he meant: that Rome would fall

Where did he say that would happen? He said the 2nd temple would fall, and the Abomination of Desolation would happen, the people expelled from the land out into the nations.... All of that happened as stated.

the Eternal Kingdom established before those people physically died.

There were multiple additional prophecies that are still to happen....Considering almost every prophecy Yeshua made came to pass, expect the rest soon....

Hindu-style Reincarnation isn´t part of Mediterranean culture, or Jesus´s teachings

First off, Gilgul is the Jewish term for transmigration of the soul/reincarnation.... So his disciples believed in it, he said, John the Baptist was Elijah; it is only stupid Christians that don't understand it.

That still doesn´t mean anything. "Anti-Christ" holds no meaning for me

It is some form of Matrix reality, where the clues are all there, it is just piecing the puzzle together... So basically what was meaning, is that the many prophecies have already come to pass; where people's interpretations of them are all upside down, as also prophesied to occur....so within recognizing it, would it change your perspective, if you realized how twisted everyone was?

 

[Shusha]

Based on the hypothetical question being asked, people are scummy/inherently flawed in someway if they're here.
So within Judaism as expressed here:

'The evil inclination in man, or what is often called man's natural inclination, has been the subject of debate since time immemorial. The traditional Jewish view on this complex subject is well-defined in rabbinic literature.'

Means that man is incapable of his own salvation, as only God can help him out of his natural ways (Yetzer_hara).

Since it is based on the hypothetical question, if we're already in Hell, then of course we're all scummy....

Can we aim to be righteous, of course we can try, that is the whole point in us being put here....

So the question still remains, what if here is the top floor of Hell, would it change your perspective on things, if you knew that is where we are?

Your understanding of Judaism's concept of yetzer hara is incorrect. And my original answer stands: If I knew that there was a god who set us all up in hell, I would rebel against him for being cruel and pointlessly demanding.

 

[Riverwolf]

Not in the slightest, if at the end of Kali Yuga we come to an age of Godliness (Satya); it is the exact same thing described in the Messianic age.

Only in the broadest sense. The details are different enough that they are clearly from two completely different sources.

He still said this generation. There´s no reason to think he meant anything other than what that means colloquially.

Where did he say that would happen? He said the 2nd temple would fall, and the Abomination of Desolation would happen, the people expelled from the land out into the nations.... All of that happened as stated.

There were multiple additional prophecies that are still to happen....Considering almost every prophecy Yeshua made came to pass, expect the rest soon....

I put no stock in prophecy. They´re vague enough that they can be applied to whatever event you want.

First off, Gilgul is the Jewish term for transmigration of the soul/reincarnation.... So his disciples believed in it, he said, John the Baptist was Elijah; it is only stupid Christians that don't understand it.

First of all, I don´t trust Wikipedia on accurately defining Jewish terms. Second of all, that thing about Elijah doesn´t point to a theological reincarnation concept that´s somehow akin to Hinduisms´s.

It is some form of Matrix reality, where the clues are all there, it is just piecing the puzzle together... So basically what was meaning, is that the many prophecies have already come to pass; where people's interpretations of them are all upside down, as also prophesied to occur....so within recognizing it, would it change your perspective, if you realized how twisted everyone was?

You´re making even less sense, now. These prophecies you speak of seem more and more to me to be nothing more than rhetoric designed to attract as many gullible followers as possible.

 

[wizanda]

He still said this generation. There´s no reason to think he meant anything other than what that means colloquially.

Then his prophecies about that generation being tried for the death of the prophets, came to pass.... They were utterly destroyed as he predicted by the Roman Empire in 70CE.

They´re vague enough that they can be applied to whatever event you want.

They're only vague when you don't research them properly, think allot are quite clear by Yeshua... Other prophets are much harder to understand, yet do interlink with his statements.

Second of all, that thing about Elijah doesn´t point to a theological reincarnation concept that´s somehow akin to Hinduisms´s.

Kabbalah has reincarnation, they've always believed in it, right back to Moses; nothing to do with Hinduism's concepts.

 

[b.finton]

Kabbalah has reincarnation, they've always believed in it, right back to Moses; nothing to do with Hinduism's concepts.

I don't contest your point.

The scriptural difference I see, however, is that a transmigration of souls and a gathering of the divine sparks differs in that the scriptures say that the soul that sins dies (that "death" not being "the finishing end," as the song goes, however).

Ain't we swells to be typing about such things so enthusiastically?!

b.

 

[Riverwolf]

Then his prophecies about that generation being tried for the death of the prophets, came to pass.... They were utterly destroyed as he predicted by the Roman Empire in 70CE.

He said "ALL of these things", which would include Rome's ultimate demise and the establishment of the Eternal Kingdom. That wouldn't happen for another 1500 years. (East Rome lasted 1000 years longer than West Rome).

Besides, recall that the gospels were written around that same time. Makes sense that they'd claim that Jesus had prophesied stuff that would have been contemporaneous to them in order to boost credibility.

They're only vague when you don't research them properly

And yet theologins have been arguing about their "real" meanings ever since they were written, and still aren't anywhere close to any kind of consensus.

That alone is enough for me to regard their vagueries as a sign that they're just gibberish.

Kabbalah has reincarnation, they've always believed in it, right back to Moses; nothing to do with Hinduism's concepts.

I know nearly nothing about the Kaballah, but unless some actual practitioners or actual Jewish people confirm this, I'll assume this is simply false.

Besides, if it's nothing to do with the Hindu concepts, don't call it reincarnation, which is a very Hindu thing. Call it something else.