If your deity asked you to kill your child, would you do it?

[popsthebuilder]

I quoted 24:16 not 24:21.

I'm quite aware of that. I'm trying to show that the Torah, though the inspired word of GOD, was still misinterpreted in places either through oral tradition, or translation. That's why there was reason for a new covenant. The Jewish people lead many astray, as has the ancient traditional rcc.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Ah but does the Qur'an not also mention what we call the sky as the heaven?

But iron did not come from space any more so than the rest of Earth.

It is believed in the established scientific comunity that metal was indeed not originally part of the formation of earth but was added later in some cosmic collision with an asteroid or meteorite.

 

[popsthebuilder]

And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp? Qur'an 71:16

The moon does not emit light yet the Qur'an says it does.

It is a light source. It reflects light, and doesn't make it, but it is still a source of light.

 

[popsthebuilder]

There is much scientific theories that explains that much better than I could ever, where as religion has a man in the sky waving a wand, and magically having everything pop out of nowhere.

No, it really doesn't.

 

[popsthebuilder]

And yet we know the moon is not a light.

71:16. ‘And He has set the moon in their midst for light and the sun He has made as a glorious lamp.


It doesn't say the moon creates light in and of itself.

 

[popsthebuilder]

No, but it's a good idea to see if a guess is reasonable.

So Abraham really did believe that God wanted him to kill Isaac? Why couldn't he recognize that God was a "God of Life" like you claim he is?

It wasn't in him to question God, nor was it needed. He had Faith in GOD in all things at all times, for good reason.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It wasn't in him to question God, nor was it needed. He had Faith in GOD in all things at all times, for good reason.

So you disagree with the approach that @Theunis suggests?

In your mind, God very well might command a person to slaughter their child, and it's praiseworthy for the person to follow that command?

How about other heinous acts? Does anything go as long as you think God ordered it?

 

[Thief]

Death and sacrifice of a child (Isaac) and of the innocent (christ) to be a test or means of salvation for man kind.

It sounds cruel; and, I feel that is barbaric.

God could think of other means to test. Christians throughout history have focused on death--death of non believers, death of innocent, death in general. Its ironic to use death to bring life.

Other religions focus on life. Death is not a means of salvation but living life in their faith is.

I completely disagree with how christianity sees death being a literal sacrifice of an animal and person.

That is barbaric.

Abram was chosen to be a father of nations
somehow the genealogy seemed important.

if you were God and attempting to redirect the species of Man.....
you might choose a particular fellow to deal with.

would he (Abram) put you (God) ahead of all things?

the test was extreme ....offspring at risk
the desired result also extreme... offspring of millions

Abram became Abraham.

 

[popsthebuilder]

So you disagree with the approach that @Theunis suggests?

In your mind, God very well might command a person to slaughter their child, and it's praiseworthy for the person to follow that command?

How about other heinous acts? Does anything go as long as you think God ordered it?

It could I suppose. Similar to the story in the bible. But also like that story it would be a test as all is, and not be something one would actually have to do, as Abraham was commanded to stop, and not kill his son.

Heinous acts like what? Based on what I know of God; it wouldn't ask such things of the faithful.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Abram was chosen to be a father of nations
somehow the genealogy seemed important.

if you were God and attempting to redirect the species of Man.....
you might choose a particular fellow to deal with.

would he (Abram) put you (God) ahead of all things?

the test was extreme ....offspring at risk
the desired result also extreme... offspring of millions

Abram became Abraham.

Death to being life as a means of sacrifice of animal and person is barbaric. Life is sacred on its own accord.

I am sure god is creative to find other means to test people without taking the life or asking others to take the life "he" created.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It could I suppose. Similar to the story in the bible. But also like that story it would be a test as all is, and not be something one would actually have to do, as Abraham was commanded to stop, and not kill his son.

But Abraham was ready and willing to do it; that was the point of the story, IMO.

Heinous acts like what? Based on what I know of God; it wouldn't ask such things of the faithful.

Like anything, really. You said that God shouldn't be questioned; I just wondered what your limits for that might be.

 

[popsthebuilder]

But Abraham was ready and willing to do it; that was the point of the story, IMO.


Like anything, really. You said that God shouldn't be questioned; I just wondered what your limits for that might be.

Indeed that is the point of the story.

The direction and will of God is imparted in us through the selfless conscience, the word of GOD, the holy spirit, Krishna consciousness, and through other means. Non of which guide us to inflict any negative thing onto any other life. If it seems to be contrary to that, then I would suggest that what you would be perceiving is not God's will, but at very least a manipulation of it.

What extent do I not question God? Given the criteria and understanding of it's will I would say that I do not question it at all, or at least strive not to.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Indeed that is the point of the story.

The direction and will of God is imparted in us through the selfless conscience, the word of GOD, the holy spirit, Krishna consciousness, and through other means. Non of which guide us to inflict any negative thing onto any other life.

... except killing one's kids, occasionally.

If it seems to be contrary to that, then I would suggest that what you would be perceiving is not God's will, but at very least a manipulation of it.

So Abraham misunderstood God?

What extent do I not question God? Given the criteria and understanding of it's will I would say that I do not question it at all, or at least strive not to.

But you just explained the criteria you would use to question and judge something that purports to be God. Isn't there a contradiction here?

 

[Thief]

Death to being life as a means of sacrifice of animal and person is barbaric. Life is sacred on its own accord.

I am sure god is creative to find other means to test people without taking the life or asking others to take the life "he" created.

as I read it.....the test went as far as a raised hand.....
close enough for God....
close enough for Abram and son....

too close for you?

perhaps we could digress a little....
what test would be more discerning....if you are looking for a specimen to father millions?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

as I read it.....the test went as far as a raised hand.....
close enough for God....
close enough for Abram and son....

too close for you?

perhaps we could digress a little....
what test would be more discerning....if you are looking for a specimen to father millions?

What exactly do you "discern" from testing a parent's willingness to gut his kid, and how does that factor into worthiness to be the father of a people?

 

[popsthebuilder]

... except killing one's kids, occasionally.


So Abraham misunderstood God?


But you just explained the criteria you would use to question and judge something that purports to be God. Isn't there a contradiction here?

What are you even saying? Did Abraham kill his son?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

as I read it.....the test went as far as a raised hand.....
close enough for God....
close enough for Abram and son....

too close for you?

perhaps we could digress a little....
what test would be more discerning....if you are looking for a specimen to father millions?

What test be better than telling a father to kill his child?

It could be anything sane. Im sure god is creative to think of test and punishment without death.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Okay guys. Im out of this conversation. I wont understand how a father killing a child is in anyway good and justified.


Cheerios!

 

[Draka]

The proof of God existence is this universe. God created the universe.

Firstly, just because we may not know exactly how the universe came into being it does not automatically mean the answer is "God did it".

Why the universe is not the proof? Toyota for instance is the proof that japan does exist.

Not quite the right comparison. Even if you wanted to assert that the universe was created by something it doesn't mean that just because it exists that it would have had to have been your god that did it. If you buy a toy that is marked as "handpainted" and it has a toy manufacturer label upon it you may know that the toy came from that manufacturer, but you do not know the exact person at what plant actually had that toy in their hands and painted it. Made that toy specifically. The universe, even if you believe was created, does not have a label upon it. It wasn't signed. You may believe it came from a deity, fine, just like the toy came from a manufacturer (which could be assumed even without a label), but what makes you think it is your deity?

Fact is, no, we do not know exactly, without a doubt, all the mechanics and causes of the universe itself, and we may never know, and...that's okay. In the grand scheme of things it's not something we really need to know, it's just something we're curious about. However, just because we don't know something doesn't mean that we must fill in what we don't know with "god". That's known as "God of the gaps". And even IF one really felt they had to stick a god into that, and other, gaps, why certain particular gods? There is no signature upon the stars. Nothing saying that it had to be one particular idea of deity and it couldn't be any other.

So, simply, the universe is NOT an argument for your god, or any other. If you want to claim you can prove the existence and supremacy of your particular god then you have to do better than that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What are you even saying? Did Abraham kill his son?

According to the story, he was prepared to kill his son because he thought God wanted him to kill his son. Also according to the story, this was considered praiseworthy in the eyes of God.

You said that God's will does not "guide us to inflict any negative thing onto any other life" and that if we perceive it to be so, then we're actually perceiving a "manipulation" of God's will.

Abraham perceived that God was guiding him to kill Isaac. In what way was this perception "manipulated"? Why would God praise Abraham for falling victim to a distortion of his true will?

... or was Abraham perceiving God correctly when he understood God to be commanding the sacrifice of Isaac?