Ignorance Doesn't Excuse Your Sin Sonny. Off to Hell You Go

[Reggie Miller]

Yup. But so what?


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I'll leave you to answer that question.

 

[Skwim]

I'll leave you to answer that question.

This is such a lame response,R.M.. But if you can't figure out what you mean then I'm certainly not going to bother trying.


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[Reggie Miller]

This is such a lame response,R.M.. But if you can't figure out what you mean then I'm certainly not going to bother trying.


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It's up to you, man.

 

[Electus de Lumine]

This is such a lame response,R.M.. But if you can't figure out what you mean then I'm certainly not going to bother trying.


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I do not know why he bothers to come here when he blocks out everything that contradicts his view of things.

 

[1robin]

In another thread one of the members said "A lot of sin is done out of ignorance."

Question: If what one does out of ignorance of its status as a sin, is it truly sinning? Wouldn't ignorance be a mitigating factor of sinning? Or does god go along with the legal principle of Ignorantia juris non excusa, ignorance of the law excuses not?

"Too bad you were unaware that foolish talking is a sin blabbermouth (Ephesians 5:4) Off to hell with you now."


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That is only relevant if your the first human (other than Christ) to have ever lived without intentionally sinning. Your not Christ or sinless are you, then what is the relevance of the question?

If you want to discuss this further you need to know a few things about salvation.

1. God is perfect and cannot dwell eternally with sin or accept anything less than perfection.
2. If he let us in Heaven the way we are it would look like Hell in a week.
2a. Everyone who reaches the age of accountability has willfully sinned. Those too young or too impaired to understand right or wrong are held as unaccountable. Guilty under the law but unaccountable to the law. God knows who is in which category but I am betting your not in the latter.
3. We do not earn heaven, it isn't a reward, it is a gift paid for 100% by God himself.
4. The gift is God, to deny the gift is to deny God.
5. True love can only exist if freewill exists, freewill only exists if we can choose poorly, we can choose not to accept God or anything he comes with.
6. In the end you get exactly what you chose. If you chose God you get God and everything he comes with. If you rejected God you are eternally separated from him and everything he comes with.
7. I believe Hell is eventual annihilation of the soul but that is debatable.

 

[Electus de Lumine]

1. God is perfect and cannot dwell eternally with sin or accept anything less than perfect.

Then he is not all-powerful and thus not perfect.

 

[1robin]

Then he is not all-powerful and thus not perfect.

Please look up the philosophic concept of "great making properties". How on Earth is not dwelling with evil eternally a question of power? How many horsepower or watts does it require?

 

[Electus de Lumine]

Please look up the philosophic concept of "great making properties". How on Earth is not dwelling with evil eternally a question of power? How many horsepower or watts does it require?

That does nothing to contradict my previous statement.

If Yahweh has rules that he must bend a knee to, them he is not all powerful.

 

[1robin]

That does nothing to contradict my previous statement.

If Yahweh has rules that he must bend a knee to, them he is not all powerful.

It would have taken you a few hours just to have a reasonable idea what great making properties means. Apparently you only had 3 minutes to invest.

However apparently 3 minutes was not long enough to answer the single simplistic question I asked.

Power is an actual quantifiable thing, it does only certain things, and only certain things have it. You can't help but learn at least this much even if you have only a few of the 190 semester hours I have in engineering.

So back to the front.

1. How much power (an actual quantity) does it take to dwell with sin, per hour?
2. How much power (an actual quantity) does God have?
3. How do you know either of the answers you made up out of thin air for the first two questions?

Apparently you think a God who would sit back and watch humanity destroy it's self in never ending cycles of endless suffering is better than one who will end it one day and restore everything we have destroyed.

 

[Electus de Lumine]

It would have taken you a few hours just to have a reasonable idea what great making properties means. Apparently you only had 3 minutes to invest.

However apparently 3 minutes was not long enough to answer the single simplistic question I asked.

Power is an actual quantifiable thing, it does only certain things, and only certain things have it. You can't help but learn at least this much even if you have only a few of the 190 semester hours I have in engineering.

So back to the front.

1. How much power (an actual quantity) does it take to dwell with sin, per hour?
2. How much power (an actual quantity) does God have?
3. How do you know either of the answers you made up out of thin air for the first two questions?

Apparently you think a God who would sit back and watch humanity destroy it's self in never ending cycles of endless suffering is better than one who will end it one day and restore everything we have destroyed.

I frankly do not care.

By definition if there is something you cannot do you are omnipotent. Are you denying that?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It would have taken you a few hours just to have a reasonable idea what great making properties means. Apparently you only had 3 minutes to invest.

However apparently 3 minutes was not long enough to answer the single simplistic question I asked.

Power is an actual quantifiable thing, it does only certain things, and only certain things have it. You can't help but learn at least this much even if you have only a few of the 190 semester hours I have in engineering.

So back to the front.

1. How much power (an actual quantity) does it take to dwell with sin, per hour?
2. How much power (an actual quantity) does God have?

"1. How much power (an actual quantity) does it take to dwell with sin, per hour?"
A completely nonsensical question, like asking, "how heavy is Thursday (in actual kilograms)?" But let's pretend it is a real question that has some potential -- and real -- answer. Then since you ask on an hourly basis, then one potentially but only partially correct answer would be "some finite quantity."

"2. How much power (an actual quantity) does God have?"
According to everything I've heard from theists, actually, who regularly cite the omnipotence ("all power") of God, an infinite quantity.

Infinity is always and ever greater than any finite quantity, and therefore it should be possible for God to dwell in (or with) sin for any length of time you can imagine.

But of course, my silly solution to your question doesn't actually lead us to any understanding of anything at all -- especially how much Thursday weighs (even in ounces).

 

[Electus de Lumine]

"1. How much power (an actual quantity) does it take to dwell with sin, per hour?"
A completely nonsensical question, like asking, "how heavy is Thursday (in actual kilograms)?" But let's pretend it is a real question that has some potential -- and real -- answer. Then since you ask on an hourly basis, then one potentially but only partially correct answer would be "some finite quantity."

"2. How much power (an actual quantity) does God have?"
According to everything I've heard from theists, actually, who regularly cite the omnipotence ("all power") of God, an infinite quantity.

Infinity is always and ever greater than any finite quantity, and therefore it should be possible for God to dwell in (or with) sin for any length of time you can imagine.

But of course, my silly solution to your silly question doesn't actually lead us to any understanding of anything at all -- especially how much Thursday weighs (even in ounces).

You double-posted by mistake.

 

[Skwim]

I do not know why he bothers to come here when he blocks out everything that contradicts his view of things.

I've put him back on IGNORE.


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[meghanwaterlillies]

In another thread one of the members said "A lot of sin is done out of ignorance."

Question: If what one does out of ignorance of its status as a sin, is it truly sinning? Wouldn't ignorance be a mitigating factor of sinning? Or does god go along with the legal principle of Ignorantia juris non excusa, ignorance of the law excuses not?

"Too bad you were unaware that foolish talking is a sin blabbermouth (Ephesians 5:4) Off to hell with you now."


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I might add on occasion
Most people get tricked on things with one person or more "caring" daring (even in a chain) to use intent but the action is placed on the other person basicly they are intending that you screw up.

 

[Skwim]

That is only relevant if your the first human (other that Christ) to have ever lived without intentionally sinning. Your not Christ or sinless are you, then what is the relevance of the question?

The relevance lies in its logic within the framework of accountability. Accountability has several characteristics, one of which is knowledge of the object of accountability. If I'm deaf should I be held accountable if I didn't hear the fire alarm got off and failed too alert anyone? If I'm five years old should I be held accountable if I can't read the "No Trespass" sign, and I trespass? If you just got out of a one-year stay in solitary confinement should you be held accountable for not knowing what the current fashion in women's lingerie is? If you you answered "Yes" to any of these don't bother to read any further.

So knowledge is central to assigning accountability. Without it (being ignorant) there is no accountability. However, as I said in my OP, some people don't feel ignorance excuses accountability. Never heard of the Bible and all its laws and rules? Tough, you're a blabbermouth and therefore a sinner.

So the logic of my statement is that

1) People should not be punished for what they're not accountable for
2) Blind people are not accountable for not reading the fine print.
C) Blind people should not be punished for not reading the fine print.





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[1robin]

I frankly do not care.

By definition if there is something you cannot do you are omnipotent. Are you denying that?

I know you do not care, people with emotional positions never care about logic, evidence, and reason. That is why this will be my last response to you for the time being. You mangled the bolded sentence above so much I have no idea what it means.

Being omnipotent means to have the capacity to do any logically coherent task.

1. Making square circles is logically incoherent. God can't do it.
2. He can't make a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it because it's logically incoherent.
3. Violating the law of non-contradiction is logically incoherent. God can't do it.
4. He can't make a married bachelor because that is logically incoherent.
5. A good God cannot sit back and watch an eternity of suffering, death, oppression, slavery, natural evil, and holocausts, etc.... and remain good because that would be logically incoherent. However an evil God certainly could, and apparently you prefer the evil God. Good luck with that.

Since you do not care about anything except allowing evil and suffering exist for eternity, I am done with you for now.

 

[Electus de Lumine]

I know you do not care, people with emotional positions never care about logic, evidence, and reason. That is why this will be my last response to you for the time being. You mangled the bolded sentence above so much I have no idea what it means.

Being omnipotent means to have the capacity to do any logically coherent task.

1. Making square circles is logically incoherent. God can't do it.
2. He can't make a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it because it's logically incoherent.
3. Violating the law of non-contradiction is logically incoherent. God can't do it.
4. He can't make a married bachelor because that is logically incoherent.
5. A good God cannot sit back and watch an eternity of suffering, death, oppression, slavery, natural evil, and holocausts, etc.... and remain good because that would be logically incoherent. However an evil God certainly could, and apparently you prefer the evil God. Good luck with that.

Since you do not care about anything except allowing evil and suffering exist for eternity, I am done with you for now.

When has emotion ever taken play in my argument?

You cannot redefine a word to fit your needs. If the rules of logic are more powerful than Yahweh then he is not omnipotent.

 

[1robin]

"1. How much power (an actual quantity) does it take to dwell with sin, per hour?"
A completely nonsensical question, like asking, "how heavy is Thursday (in actual kilograms)?" But let's pretend it is a real question that has some potential -- and real -- answer. Then since you ask on an hourly basis, then one potentially but only partially correct answer would be "some finite quantity."

You always start off half way civil but within 3 posts you turn the thread into Hiroshima. I will discuss this with you as long as you remain civil but not one second longer.

Of course it was a nonsensical question. That was the point. Someone said God lacked the power to dwell with sin for eternity. So I asked them how many watts or horsepower does it take and how much of them does God have? and how they knew either of the answers they couldn't provide?

"2. How much power (an actual quantity) does God have?"
According to everything I've heard from theists, actually, who regularly cite the omnipotence ("all power") of God, an infinite quantity.

Actually this issue is very complicated and I do not think anyone has a handle on it. I will state the little I understand about omnipotence.

1. God has sufficient power to accomplish anything he wills and is logically coherent.
2. God doing evil, creating square circles, married bachelors, etc..... are logically incoherent.

Infinity is always and ever greater than any finite quantity, and therefore it should be possible for God to dwell in (or with) sin for any length of time you can imagine.

I am not sure that I said it is impossible for God. If I did I need to clarify that and say that he decided that he will not let evil and suffering exist for eternity. However I think it is impossible to allow an eternity of suffering, death, misery, slavery, oppression, rape, abortion, pain, disease, etc...... and God remain good but the issue that was raised was God lacks the power to allow it which makes no sense.

But of course, my silly solution to your question doesn't actually lead us to any understanding of anything at all -- especially how much Thursday weighs (even in ounces).

You are correct to point out the absurdity, but it was the absurdity of another poster I was responding to.

 

[Reggie Miller]

1) People should not be punished for what they're not accountable for
2) Blind people are not accountable for not reading the fine print.
C) Blind people should not be punished for not reading the fine print.

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What makes you think God's judgement is not going to take all those things - and everything else - into account?

 

[1robin]

The relevance lies in its logic within the framework of accountability. Accountability has several characteristics, one of which is knowledge of the object of accountability. If I'm deaf should I be held accountable if I didn't hear the fire alarm got off and failed too alert anyone? If I'm five years old should I be held accountable if I can't read the "No Trespass" sign, and I trespass? If you just got out of a one-year stay in solitary confinement should you be held accountable for not knowing what the current fashion in women's lingerie is? If you you answered "Yes" to any of these don't bother to read any further.

So knowledge is central to assigning accountability. Without it (being ignorant) there is no accountability. However, as I said in my OP, some people don't feel ignorance excuses accountability. Never heard of the Bible and all its laws and rules? Tough, you're a blabbermouth and therefore a sinner.

So the logic of my statement is that

1) People should not be punished for what they're not accountable for
2) Blind people are not accountable for not reading the fine print.
C) Blind people should not be punished for not reading the fine print.





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That is like saying the house is on fire but never mind that, the yard needs mowing. It may be true and logical that the yard needed mowing, but it isn't logical to concentrate on the grass instead of putting out the fire.

The bible indicates that God only holds those accountable who can judge right from wrong. He does not give every specific case that that applies to or the bible would take up entire libraries. However if you actually want answers then look up William Craig's book "The problem of the unevangelised".