Ignorance Doesn't Excuse Your Sin Sonny. Off to Hell You Go

[bobhikes]

In another thread one of the members said "A lot of sin is done out of ignorance."

Question: If what one does out of ignorance of its status as a sin, is it truly sinning? Wouldn't ignorance be a mitigating factor of sinning? Or does god go along with the legal principle of Ignorantia juris non excusa, ignorance of the law excuses not?

"Too bad you were unaware that foolish talking is a sin blabbermouth (Ephesians 5:4) Off to hell with you now."


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I haven't seen this answer so I'll post it.

Simply you can't be ignorant. A god that made the world is not going to rely on man's words to determine sin. It is going to be built into your evolution. You know when your sinning. Pain, remorse all sorts of signals tell you what you are doing is wrong. You say mentally ill people do not have these signals. Prove it, they might be missing one but perhaps the others are stronger. The problem is we have is no direct external explanation for sins all the explanation is internal. You know when you are doing wrong and don't have to be told by others. You can't be ignorant. You can be stupid by basing sins on a human written book.

 

[Skwim]

That is like saying the house is on fire but never mind that, the yard needs mowing. It may be true and logical that the yard needed mowing, but it isn't logical to concentrate on the grass instead of putting out the fire.

No it's not. That you need to step away from the point in order to save your theology is fine, but it still remains irrelevant and hardly convincing.

The bible indicates that God only holds those accountable who can judge right from wrong.

Which implies that he won't hold those accountable who can't judge right from wrong. And that's my answer. One can't judge what's right and what's wrong if they don't have the Right & Wrong Rule Book. So you agree that even though I'm not Christ or sinless, god doesn't judge such people to have committed a sin if they don't know what they did is regarded as a sin. Ignorance is a mitigating factor, AND you do see the relevance of my questions. Good or you.

Question: If what one does out of ignorance of its status as a sin, is it truly sinning? Wouldn't ignorance be a mitigating factor of sinning? Or does god go along with the legal principle of Ignorantia juris non excusa, ignorance of the law excuses not?​

In that sinning requires knowledge of the sin, it kind of makes one wish they'd never heard of god's rules, Jesus, and all. Ignorance turns out to be the option of choice.


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[Evangelicalhumanist]

You always start off half way civil but within 3 posts you turn the thread into Hiroshima. I will discuss this with you as long as you remain civil but not one second longer.

Having re-read what I wrote, I do not believe there was anything uncivil in it, and certainly not ballistic! I'm not sure where that came from.

Of course it was a nonsensical question. That was the point. Someone said God lacked the power to dwell with sin for eternity. So I asked them how many watts or horsepower does it take and how much of them does God have? and how they knew either of the answers they couldn't provide?

But this is my very point about all of those things that believers claim about God, what he wants, what power he has, what he has done to accomplish his will (and what he hasn't done). And I say the same to them -- they cannot and do not know anything about God in those terms. And so on to your next point...

Actually this issue is very complicated and I do not think anyone has a handle on it. I will state the little I understand about omnipotence.

1. God has sufficient power to accomplish anything he wills and is logically coherent.
2. God doing evil, creating square circles, married bachelors, etc..... are logically incoherent.

I am fully in agreement that the definitions you have provided are logically consistent. I just do not necessarily agree that they represent any sort of reality, and my reasons are based in my observations about the reality in which we all, collectively, find ourselves. I can give many, many examples, but let's try a fantastical one for a moment -- the question of demonic possession and exorcism. Think very carefully about whether God has the power to exorcise demons, whether God wishes demons to possess power over us, how demonic possession could then occur, and why exorcism is necessary? You will, if your logic is careful, find it so full of holes that you will have to dismiss the whole thing entirely.

I am not sure that I said it is impossible for God. If I did I need to clarify that and say that he decided that he will not let evil and suffering exist for eternity.

Then you do not believe in the current Christian notion of Hell?

However I think it is impossible to allow an eternity of suffering, death, misery, slavery, oppression, rape, abortion, pain, disease, etc...... and God remain good but the issue that was raised was God lacks the power to allow it which makes no sense.

Once again, you have to confront a very logical point: if these things are bad and cannot be permitted to go on for eternity -- and God has the power to put a stop to them all -- then are they also not bad enough that they should not have been permitted to go on this long? And therefore, why, if God has the power to stop them, has He not?

This is, like it or not, an extremely reasonable question.

 

[Skwim]

I haven't seen this answer so I'll post it.

Simply you can't be ignorant. A god that made the world is not going to rely on man's words to determine sin. It is going to be built into your evolution. You know when your sinning. Pain, remorse all sorts of signals tell you what you are doing is wrong. You say mentally ill people do not have these signals. Prove it, they might be missing one but perhaps the others are stronger. The problem is we have is no direct external explanation for sins all the explanation is internal. You know when you are doing wrong and don't have to be told by others. You can't be ignorant. You can be stupid by basing sins on a human written book.

So you knew that foolish talking is a sin (Ephesians 5:4) without having read it or being told, as does everyone else in the world. Yeah sure. Hell, a lot of people don't even know what sin is much less what they are.


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[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's up to you, man.

Goodness, what a horrible volley! The original remark was "I don't believe there's anyone who hasn't heard the gospel." Okay, the Muslim baby born in Baghdad, yesterday -- heard the gospel or no? How about millions of peasant Hindus and Sikhs? Where are they hearing it, and are you sure? What about the bankers busily saving billions for future -- when Jesus Christ himself specifically told them not to -- did they "hear" it, or were they merely exposed to the words. Because vibrations on the eardrums without understanding does not count as "hearing."

 

[bobhikes]

So you knew that foolish talking is a sin (Ephesians 5:4) without having read it or being told, as does everyone else in the world. Yeah sure. Hell, a lot of people don't even know what sin is much less what they are.


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Do they feel pain, sorrow, hate, distrust, happy, joy....etc. Our emotions are our guide and tell us much about ourselves and what we do. Everyone has a guide that tells inside what is right.

 

[Reggie Miller]

Goodness, what a horrible volley! The original remark was "I don't believe there's anyone who hasn't heard the gospel." Okay, the Muslim baby born in Baghdad, yesterday -- heard the gospel or no? How about millions of peasant Hindus and Sikhs? Where are they hearing it, and are you sure? What about the bankers busily saving billions for future -- when Jesus Christ himself specifically told them not to -- did they "hear" it, or were they merely exposed to the words. Because vibrations on the eardrums without understanding does not count as "hearing."

Volley? That was no volley. My reply was specifically for Skwim.

Where did that come from? Did somebody take a crap in your Cheerios or what?

 

[Skwim]

Do they feel pain, sorrow, hate, distrust, happy, joy....etc. Our emotions are our guide and tell us much about ourselves and what we do. Everyone has a guide that tells inside what is right.

Not that this deserves a reasoned response, but is everything we may feel, such as pain, sorrow, hate, distrust, a sin? If not then how is one supposed to differentiate those that god has deemed a sin as those he hasn't? AND, what you might feel is right I might not. Does this make my action sinful, whereas you doing the same thing, not a sin? So it is interesting that you define sin as something people feel pain, sorrow, hate, or distrust over.


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[bobhikes]

Not that this deserves a reasoned response, but is everything we may feel, such as pain, sorrow, hate, distrust, a sin? If not then how is one supposed to differentiate those that god has deemed a sin as those he hasn't? AND, what you might feel is right I might not. Does this make my action sinful, whereas you doing the same thing, not a sin? So it is interesting that you define sin as something people feel pain, sorrow, hate, or distrust over.


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Emotions are not a sin they are used with other abilities allows you to differentiate what is and is not a sin. I have points in my life I know I sinned. They are points where I know I acted against my own feelings, beliefs or whatever something that won't let me let those points go. They aren't listed in the top ten sin's of any religion and perhaps for each of us it is different. They are points that I went against some thing inside myself and have never been able to reconcile.

 

[Skwim]

Emotions are not a sin they are used with other abilities allows you to differentiate what is and is not a sin.

28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matthew 5:28​

"Lust is an emotion or feeling of intense desire in the body."
Source: Richard Lazarus with Bernice N Lazarus, Passion and Reason: Making Sense of Our Emotions, 1994, New York: Oxford University Press.


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[bobhikes]

28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matthew 5:28​

"Lust is an emotion or feeling of intense desire in the body."
Source: Richard Lazarus with Bernice N Lazarus, Passion and Reason: Making Sense of Our Emotions, 1994, New York: Oxford University Press.


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What man's books say mean nothing. You believe in determinism we all act on causes, your actions are based on evolution. The code is built so that you know when you do wrong. It is that simple. If it wasn't life could not survive.

 

[Thief]

In another thread one of the members said "A lot of sin is done out of ignorance."

Question: If what one does out of ignorance of its status as a sin, is it truly sinning? Wouldn't ignorance be a mitigating factor of sinning? Or does god go along with the legal principle of Ignorantia juris non excusa, ignorance of the law excuses not?

"Too bad you were unaware that foolish talking is a sin blabbermouth (Ephesians 5:4) Off to hell with you now."


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every one hears it.....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

a code of behavior....and fair warning

your plea of ignorance vanished when you first heard this

 

[Valerian]

Nice thread

It isn't that ignorance is an excuse for the sin but I don't see how God would rationally condemn people for all eternity for something they didn't know.

Jesus made a lot of hyperboles, spoke in parable, and spoke symbolically. I simply don't know the correct interpretation to everything he said, so I give my opinion. I believe what Allan Kardec said the spirits told him. They told him that eventually every spirit will be perfected and purified. I could be wrong, but that is what I believe.

There are many verses in Scripture that are merciful in some profound measures to those who may be ignorant or dull of spirit, and also clarifies the position of those who have heard but have no interest in accepting. I will just point some out without further commentary.

John 9:39-41
"I came into this world," said Jesus, "to judge men, that those who do not see may see, and that those who do see may become blind." These words were heard by those of the Pharisees who were present, and they asked Him, "Are *we* also blind?" "If you were blind," answered Jesus, "you would have no sin; but as a matter of fact you boast that you see. So your sin remains!"

John 15:22-24
If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father

Romans 2:14-15
“For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them”

Romans 5:12-13
Brothers and sisters: Through one man sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all men, inasmuch as all sinned --- for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.


And then there is the authority of the Catholic Church.

From The Second Vatican Council: >> 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[Skwim]

What man's books say mean nothing.

Of course they do because we're the ones who gave their words the meanings they have.

You believe in determinism we all act on causes,

In a sense, yup.

your actions are based on evolution.

Come again???

The code is built so that you know when you do wrong.

What code is that? And please don't say the genetic code.

It is that simple. If it wasn't life could not survive.

What it is that ?


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[Skwim]

every one hears it.....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

a code of behavior....and fair warning

It might be if 1) that was the only circumstance: doing to others as you would have them do unto you, but it isn't. Lusting is a good example of committing a victimless sin (unless one is persuaded that one can be a victim of themselves). So your "it" isn't the only contingency.

your plea of ignorance vanished when you first heard this

The other part of "might be" is 2), the fact that without knowledge that not doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is a sin---the ignorance factor---I don't see it as rising to the level of accountability.


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[bobhikes]

Of course they do because we're the ones who gave their words the meanings they have.


In a sense, yup.


Come again???


What code is that? And please don't say the genetic code.


What it is that ?


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What code drives you to do what you do? It can't be random there has to be something that make you respond to causes. The code whatever you call it has to have rules for maintaining life. Those rules could be called morals. If you break them it could be said you are sinning. Now you would reply that the code in the person is wrong or broken because everything is determined and you can't break the rules. A person is not responsible for there actions so thereby can't sin. This is where we differ. I believe in choice and you don't. As long as you believe in determinism you can't believe in sin because sin is a choice and you don't believe in choice. In determinism not only is ignorance a non-entity but sinning as well. To understand sinning you'd have to entertain choice.

 

[Skwim]

What code drives you to do what you do?

"Codes"? I've never heard of people having codes that drive them. Generally it comes down to needs and desires that drive people, none of which I have ever heard to be codified.

The code whatever you call it has to have rules for maintaining life.

Don't see why, particularly when I have absolutely no idea what this code is that you're talking about.

Those rules could be called morals. If you break them it could be said you are sinning.

And it could be said that you're not sinning. AND, nothing could be said at all.

Now you would reply that the code in the person is wrong or broken because everything is determined and you can't break the rules.

Sure I could break some rule someone has set up, but It wouldn't be because I freely willed it.

A person is not responsible for there actions so thereby can't sin. This is where we differ. I believe in choice and you don't. As long as you believe in determinism you can't believe in sin because sin is a choice and you don't believe in choice. In determinism not only is ignorance a non-entity but sinning as well.

Wrong, Ignorance is very alive and well in our deterministic world.

To understand sinning you'd have to entertain choice.

Quite wrong. Understanding a concept has absolutely nothing to do with agreeing with it or even admitting its existence. Assuming your not a communist, I'm quite certain you're still capable of understanding it. And, given the rules of quidditch, the game in Harry Potter which doesn't exist, I'm sure you could still understand it.


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[bobhikes]

"Codes"? I've never heard of people having codes that drive them. Generally it comes down to needs and desires that drive people, none of which I have ever heard to be codified.

Don't see why, particularly when I have absolutely no idea what this code is that you're talking about.

And it could be said that you're not sinning. AND, nothing could be said at all.

Sure I could break some rule someone has set up, but It wouldn't be because I freely willed it.


Wrong, Ignorance is very alive and well in our deterministic world.


Quite wrong. Understanding a concept has absolutely nothing to do with agreeing with it or even admitting its existence. Assuming your not a communist, I'm quite certain you're still capable of understanding it. And, given the rules of quidditch, the game in Harry Potter which doesn't exist, I'm sure you could still understand it.


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Well it seems you know everything and what you don't know of isn't pertinent. I guess I'm ignorant.

 

[Thief]

It might be if 1) that was the only circumstance: doing to others as you would have them do unto you, but it isn't. Lusting is a good example of committing a victimless sin (unless one is persuaded that one can be a victim of themselves). So your "it" isn't the only contingency.


The other part of "might be" is 2), the fact that without knowledge that not doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is a sin---the ignorance factor---I don't see it as rising to the level of accountability.


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what you do unto yourself also counts....
too bad you have to read between the nouns to catch that item

and having heard better things....you would persist with a plea of ignorance?

 

[1robin]

No it's not. That you need to step away from the point in order to save your theology is fine, but it still remains irrelevant and hardly convincing.

I had to use an analogy because you did not understand the literal. If you still don't get it, I give up.

Which implies that he won't hold those accountable who can't judge right from wrong. And that's my answer. One can't judge what's right and what's wrong if they don't have the Right & Wrong Rule Book. So you agree that even though I'm not Christ or sinless, god doesn't judge such people to have committed a sin if they don't know what they did is regarded as a sin. Ignorance is a mitigating factor, AND you do see the relevance of my questions. Good or you.

I almost agree, this concept is very complex. That is why I recommended a book instead of posting my opinion. You have all kinds of different groups, those who died in places where Christianity hadn't gotten to, people that can't read or know anyone who can, people who have mental defects, and children. I recommend the book but I will make a few comments. I do believe God judges a person who transgresses his moral commands as guilty but he pardons them if they are unaccountable.

1. People are only accountable for the revelation they received.
2. Some think the unevangelised have another chance after death to accept God.
3. New International Version
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
4. Even without the bible we have a God given conscience.

Question:

If what one does out of ignorance of its status as a sin, is it truly sinning? Wouldn't ignorance be a mitigating factor of sinning? Or does god go along with the legal principle of Ignorantia juris non excusa, ignorance of the law excuses not?

I think it is, even our own legal systems do not allow for ignorance of the law as a defense. Since we have plenty of willful sins on our record why does the technicality of ignorant sinning meaningful. It is more important to get to heaven than it is to debate how much we are punished in Hell. No one knows what exactly hell is. The bible suggests that the punishment will fit the crime and that is enough for me. I do not see the point of this discussion. ​

In that sinning requires knowledge of the sin, it kind of makes one wish they'd never heard of god's rules, Jesus, and all. Ignorance turns out to be the option of choice.

To make specific judgments you require specifics about every type of sin, what the specific punishments would be, and exactly how ignorant a person was and why. No one knows any of those and so again I don't see the point. We should be discussing how to get to heaven not how to modulate our punishment in hell.