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Ignorance is bliss...

Musty

Active Member
I think it's important to accept you life as it truly is so that you can live your life without being influenced (As much as is humanly possible) by misconceptions about yourself and false perceptions you project on others. This is as true for people who have belief in God as it is for those that don't and problems occur for both when they they don't a life that is true to who they are.

It's terrible when someone is unable to be who they are, and that they are unable to address the false perceptions of those around them. I experienced the reverse of your friend when trying to explain about mindfulness meditation practice to a family member who is a staunch atheist. Their response was that I had been brainwashed by irrational religious belief (Despite there being no theist or even deistic aspect to the practice and a growing body of psychological and neurological research into it).
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Well named, agree with your suggestion about how to interpret readings, but that seems to be the mainstay mantra of modern day ''apologetics.'' If everything or nearly everything tucked away in 'holy Scripture', is up for interpretation...then it fails to have any objectivity at all. Which is fine, but the faith that you follow, or that anyone follows for that matter, has no concrete objective evidence to support it. The danger of all religions however, is that they often mislead people into thinking that they are based on absolute truths, which couldn't be further from.....the Truth. ;)
This is a misinterpretation of objectivity. ;)

Objectivity is an interpretation.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
The post makes no reference to any specific group, it says, "enthusiasm for the truth however is not shared by the secular world. In fact, its citizens, in general, harbor a distinct fear of the truth..." It's a very sweeping statement, and goes on to qualify the statement.

Yes, it is a very sweeping generalization, and it is aimed at a specific group: "the secular world," which means anyone who is not in the Church. the statement specifies that "its citizens...." Citizens of the secular world "harbor a distinct fear of the truth." The citizens of the secular world would indeed be atheists and nonbelievers (those who don't believe in the church's doctrines) by any reasonable interpretation of the statement. Regardless of any further qualification, it is clearly stating that the Church has the truth, and all others do not.:rolleyes:

I'm not sure what the point of your posting was, how it contributes to the discussion that the OP asked for. Certainly, it does not sound like it's a posting by a person who might be considered a seeker. I would also like to point out that this is a DIR, and your original contribution smells an awful lot like proselytizing, at least to me. As well as your more recent responses.
 

kepha31

Active Member
This is why religion is detrimental to society. It purports a pseudo-reality, distorts truth. So much so, that some actually redefine truth and reality to their own liking.
Religion is detrimental to society when it is used as an excuse, or to fuel fires of fanaticism for gaining power, as we see with the ISIS and the horrors going on in Nigeria, Kenya...etc. or mind controlling cults that do nothing for the betterment of the general community.
On the other hand, religion (i.e.Catholicism) has built Western civilization, as modern (secular) historians are coming to admit.
Commentary: History shows contributions of Catholic Church to Western civilization | Deseret News
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Tell your friend that a whole community (hint: RF :)) cares for her and wishes her the best in her beliefs. Tell her to not worry too much about the details of beliefs. Tell her to look at the basics and what beliefs mainly stand for. Details only give us headaches if we over-think them. Those details happened, if really did, long time ago when things could have been so much different from now. We are but this much old in this life to compare life now with how it was long time ago. Maybe if we lived those days for real we would have had different views? Tell your friend to be honest with herself and to stand up to what she sees the right thing.

My best regards and wishes to your friend. She must be a great friend for opening up like that :)

You know something? You always say the kindest things. *hugs you* :sunflower:
I should have my friend read this. :)

Putting American Norther Europeans into an Abrahamic faith from childhood is doomed to tragedy when they learn their ancestry and heritage.

You're talking about some really jaded people, you can't keep them brainwashed anymore.

Particularly since most people have access to the internet and technology to research their family.

When I learned I wasn't a Israelite, I was over joyed.

Why this happened in the first place puzzles me, it's a horrible idea.
haha Is it wrong that your post made me giggle? :D Your post is great because it is a wonderful reminder that we all take ourselves too seriously, sometimes.
I think it's important to accept you life as it truly is so that you can live your life without being influenced (As much as is humanly possible) by misconceptions about yourself and false perceptions you project on others. This is as true for people who have belief in God as it is for those that don't and problems occur for both when they they don't a life that is true to who they are.

It's terrible when someone is unable to be who they are, and that they are unable to address the false perceptions of those around them. I experienced the reverse of your friend when trying to explain about mindfulness meditation practice to a family member who is a staunch atheist. Their response was that I had been brainwashed by irrational religious belief (Despite there being no theist or even deistic aspect to the practice and a growing body of psychological and neurological research into it).

This is very insightful, and it's a tragedy as well, when someone doesn't know who he/she is without religion dictating it. My identity was wrapped up in Catholicism most of my life, with a more lukewarm version of Christianity towards the waning last few years before I deconverted. But, deconversion is not for the faint of heart. lol It's been an interesting process, but perhaps a necessary one in order to find out who I am, and what life means to me, without a religion telling me so. Thanks Musty, for your comment. I'm sorry you were met with your family member saying such things to you.
This is a misinterpretation of objectivity. ;)

Objectivity is an interpretation.
lol Hmmm... Maybe we are all not really here at all...it's all just an illusionnnnnnnn................reality is just an illusion. ;)
The post makes no reference to any specific group, it says, "enthusiasm for the truth however is not shared by the secular world. In fact, its citizens, in general, harbor a distinct fear of the truth..." It's a very sweeping statement, and goes on to qualify the statement.
I know that I am not deceived by conviction.
Okay, fair enough. What do you mean by your last statement, kepha?

Religion is detrimental to society when it is used as an excuse, or to fuel fires of fanaticism for gaining power, as we see with the ISIS and the horrors going on in Nigeria, Kenya...etc. or mind controlling cults that do nothing for the betterment of the general community.
On the other hand, religion (i.e.Catholicism) has built Western civilization, as modern (secular) historians are coming to admit.
Commentary: History shows contributions of Catholic Church to Western civilization | Deseret News

Actually, it can be more insidious than this...religion can slowly distort truth. An example of what I'm getting at would be how many conservatives would like to see creationism taught in the public school system, I'm assuming as part of science class. This is wrong. Religion doesn't belong in the public school system. If parents wish to teach their kids this, that's fine, but to drag religious beliefs (and not all religious people support creationism) into the public educational arena, is wrong. But, in some states, it very well may happen. :(

Religion has a way of causing people to abandon reality and science for a false reality, and pseudo-science. ISIS is an obvious observation as to how religion can destroy a society when left unchecked, but it is still trying to do damage even in the United States. Just my opinion fwiw.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Then you missed a very important point. Truth cannot be possessed by anyone. You are, indirectly, accusing the Church of pharisaism, which proves you read into the post what you wanted to, and ignored the pretentious snobbery of those claiming to own the truth. The Church does not, and cannot "own" the Truth.
Jesus claimed to have 'truth,' and since he preached that one must follow him in order to be a true believer, that is what the Church teaches. Yes?

The OP said "ignorance is bliss" in the first post.
I replied in the second post:"...igorance may be blissful, but it is never illuminating."
In post 30, page two, it says the same thing with some elaboration.
I am right on topic, you are just looking for a fight.


Your right. It's a posting for people who might be seeking clarity on what Truth means.
Ignorance meaning...when I didn't question my faith, life seemed blissful. It wasn't until I started questioning my beliefs, that I realized much of what I did believe wasn't based on verifiable truths. I had mistakenly looked at the Bible as a history book instead of a religious indoctrination tool. (I say that in hopes of not offending you, but that's my view of the Bible at this juncture.)

It appears my post disturbed you. Anyone who loves the truth or is seeking the truth would have got some good from it, regardless of their religious or non-religious leanings. Obviously you have excluded yourself. Everybody in here can give their particular religious perspective on everything, but when I do it, or quote a professor of philosophy, you call it proselytizing.
No worries, I forgive you. :p

You love your faith. I get that. :)
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Then you missed a very important point. Truth cannot be possessed by anyone. You are, indirectly, accusing the Church of pharisaism, which proves you read into the post what you wanted to, and ignored the pretentious snobbery of those claiming to own the truth. The Church does not, and cannot "own" the Truth.
The OP said "ignorance is bliss" in the first post.
I replied in the second post:"...igorance may be blissful, but it is never illuminating."
In post 30, page two, it says the same thing with some elaboration.
I am right on topic, you are just looking for a fight.
Your right. It's a posting for people who might be seeking clarity on what Truth means.
It appears my post disturbed you. Anyone who loves the truth or is seeking the truth would have got some good from it, regardless of their religious or non-religious leanings. Obviously you have excluded yourself. Everybody in here can give their particular religious perspective on everything, but when I do it, or quote a professor of philosophy, you call it proselytizing.

I disagree with you because ignorance may or may not be blissful, but realizing the limits of your knowledge and the edges of your ignorance can be very illuminating indeed. I'm not even concerned about Truth. When it takes the RCC 800+ pages to lay out what its followers should believe, I suspect that there is an effort to establish as know many things that are not know, and may be unknowable. When leaders of all sorts of religions say "Here's what the scriptures say and mean..." or worse, "God has told me..." When positivists and their successors try to say that eventually we'll know one fairly short, straightforward equation that will explain everything in the universe ("Knowing the mind of God," as Einstein phrased it), let's just say I'm skeptical. I'm skeptical of both material realism and idealism. I'm skeptical of philosophy in general.

It would appear that you and I are doomed to disagree on this topic, at least.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your post, kepha. :)

My opinion is that no one can ‘teach’ anyone about who or what a deity is. No one has ‘met’ God and no religion is any more of an authority with respect to the supernatural realm, than the one that came before or after it. In all sincerity, I believe religion is a manifestation of one’s own ego, which is why so many religious people take offense when you ‘criticize’ their faith or their god. God doesn’t need defending, IF he exists. Mankind has been trying to figure out what exists ‘beyond’ this life, for centuries. No one has the answers, everyone is guessing. The Bible is at best a group of people who were guessing as to who or what a deity is, and expects of ‘his creation,’ and at worst…mainly lies. I’m okay with not knowing…it’s better than clinging to the rules of men being passed off as ‘the word of God.’
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Actually, their is One.

I think being dead would make one an authority with respect to the supernatural realm.
Good point, but that's not always the case.
I can't speak for everyone, but I am not guessing. I know why we exist, and I know a meaningful life is possible. Failing to take full advantage of the means offered to me is my own fault, but the invitation is always there. All religions seek answers to the mystery of human suffering, or the problem of evil (theodicy). Catholicism is the only religion that has a framework where suffering need not be wasted. Atheism argues that because suffering exists, God cannot exist. This is a fundamentally flawed viewpoint.

Science has never had to contradict the Holy, and now the creation has vindicated the Creator. Simply put, it all lies within the First Law of Thermodynamics. This states, along with common sense, that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. The key line in this is that "energy cannot be created." Hence, we are begged to ask the question where did all of this "stuff" come from? Where did that tiny sub-nucleic particle which exploded to make the Big Bang originate and how did it come to exist? It is scientifically impossible -- energy cannot be created. To put it in layman's terms, something cannot come from nothing.

Creation was step one, the beginning step of creation that atheists gloss over, fruitlessly believing that one day they will find the answers. However, while creation is step one, the scientists insist that we must argue step two (evolution) and then step three (theodicy), while entirely skipping the first step (creation). You cannot skip steps in a process like this in order to validate a proof. It is absurd and insulting to the intelligence of the open-minded. It's that simple. Everything we see, hear, feel, touch, and taste cannot have come from nothing. Hence, a Creator. While I do not have all of the answers to all of the questions, I do believe I have the Answer to the Question. Nature, by its very nature, is supernatural.
The Achilles Heel of Atheism and Protestantism by Jonathan
Yes, you've said that before. Could you be specific?

That is, sadly, presupposes a Protestant perspective.

Hi kepha :)

Thank you for this well thought out reply. I will do my best to share with you my own thoughts. First, many atheists don't negate that a god exists, because there is suffering in the world. That might be some people's arguments, but that has no bearing on why I find atheism to be logical. I happen to believe in redemptive suffering, which is part and parcel from my Catholic days. ^_^ I don't believe that suffering is to be avoided, but rather embraced...not nurtured...but embraced, as we tend to learn and grow mainly during times of suffering. This is true for me, anyway. So, please don't assume that atheists are angry, bitter people looking at the world...wondering where is god ...if he should exist, how and why does he let this suffering go on? That's never been a great argument on either side.

In all honesty, you are choosing to believe the guesswork that came before you. Which is fine. But, that is religion. I happen to think that the Bible is either a compilation of fabricated stories, of various people guessing at who or what a deity might be, or at the very worst, it could all be outright lies, However, part of me believes a man named Jesus walked the earth, and was seeing his life as necessary in delivering a message of love and hope to others. But, was he guessing? Was he divine? That part of the story, I happen to think was fabricated. There is no proof that Jesus rose from the dead, or that he considered himself 'divine.' I would rather not spend my time speculating, because at the end of the day...life rolls on whether you or I or anyone believe the tale or not. It is this life that matters, but I remember being caught up in an after life...worrying about it, pondering it, hoping for it. It is not a good way to live life, my opinion.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Putting American Norther Europeans into an Abrahamic faith from childhood is doomed to tragedy when they learn their ancestry and heritage.
You mean stuff like this?

440px-Zerst%C3%B6rung_der_Irminsaule_durch_Karl_den_Gro%C3%9Fen_by_Heinrich_Leutemann.jpg
 

Banjankri

Active Member
Ignorance is bliss.
Yes, but what has been seen cannot be unseen. Everyday we learn something new, and the nostalgia for ignorance grows bigger and bigger. Since we know how helpful knowledge is, we will not abandon it. There must be another way around, and luckily there is. It's called detachment.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
The very phrase "up for interpretation" still contains this sort of nagging belief that somehow it's even possible that something could not be up for interpretation, but entirely settled, objective, and absolute. And only that which could not possibly be subject to interpretation is objective. But I think that's still wrong.

I mentioned the idea of an objective starting point focused on ascertaining the intent of the human author, and the likely reception of the text by contemporaneous readers, taking into account the culture and intellectual understanding of the time. Sometimes this approach is called "critical realism", borrowing the term from sociology. It's an objective method, and no less so just because it can't claim an absolute authority as far as the meaning of a text, any more than the fundamentalist view. I am certainly agreeing with you that it's a mistake for religions to project a claim to "absolute truth" in this way.

In a lot of ways, what I am suggesting to you is in fact what you might call a more "naturalistic" or even atheistic approach to hermeneutics. In the sense that it does not privilege a particular reading via some metaphysical justification. In other words, it's not a form of special pleading for the bible, as you seem to think it is. One of the mistakes of religious ideology has been in supposing that only a Supreme Being as the ground of all thinking can provide a fundamental basis for objective claims, whether it's about morality or about the authoritative reading of a text. In a sense, you are carrying that idea forward with you even having rejected the theism it springs from. That's why I'm suggesting that it may be fruitful to contemplate what "meaning" really means, and how it is determined, from a naturalistic point of view. That's why I suggested treating the text first as a human artifact. It might be easier if we dealt with a text other than the bible just to avoid all the past associations.

Part of the problem, from my perspective, is in the assumptions that already go into thinking about "it" as having "concrete objective evidence to support it". What is the it that we're referring to? Presumably it's what you perceive to be the historical claims of the text, stated as propositions. "Jesus rose from the dead" for example. Part of the point though is that this approach is already assuming a particular hermeneutical method, namely the attempt to interpret a text as history in a modern sense, and also assuming that the historical value of the text is its meaning. Certainly for Christians both ancient and modern, there are such historical claims in the text that matter, and as you say, many (certainly the resurrection is one) lack objective evidence. It is important to realize that. But the historical does not exhaust the possibility of meaning. Especially with religion where, I would suggest, how we live now, how we participate in life, and in so participating come to understand ourselves, others, the universe, the Divine, that this question about a way of life is more fundamental than an abstract set of beliefs.

So when I asked in another thread what value a deist might find in ancient religious texts, I didn't mean in particular the "value" of verifiable claims to historic facts. I meant something more like inspiration closer to the aesthetic than the historical. Beliefs and metaphysics matter in the sense that they condition how we experience and relate to life. You seem, to me, to be engaged in this journey that involves realizing the inadequacy of your prior background beliefs, about God, about the Bible, about Christianity, and etc. I think this is normal and healthy, and I would never encourage you to stay stuck. What I am suggesting is that pursuing these threads may require challenging some of the assumptions that you still retain about what "religion" is, or about what "truth" is.

What I hear you saying is that Truth in a capital-T transcendental sense is too important to maintain certain views against the overwhelming challenge of reasonable objections to them. I think I understand, I certainly don't object. What I am suggesting is that, if a certain cleansing and freeing step is necessary, to seek truth over easy emotional comfort or familiarity, yet it remains also to be discovered what the boundaries of "truth" might be, who you are for yourself rather than for the sake of fitting into a particular system of belief. But also beyond a mere labeling of historical propositions as true or false. What meaning can your life have for you? What I am suggesting is that I think it's possible to find a great deal of wisdom and meaning in the collective insights of thousands of years of human life, beyond just the determination of whether certain historical claims are true or false, and not just as a question of adopting or rejecting a particular label, whether "Christian", "Muslim", "theist", "deist" or "atheist".

I thought I read this, but...lol

I agree with everything you say here, except that the label of 'Christian' implies a set of beliefs that a Christian follows, not necessarily constructs him/herself. I think one can still be an individual and be a religious person, but if you do adhere to Christianity, that tends to become who you are...eventually.
 
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