PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Refined to what and why? And why not simply make the change before we are born?
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Illness/disability the result of 'sin'?
- Thread starter Misty
- Start date
No, the Bible does not teach that God punishes people individually by sending illness to them or their families. What it does teach is that sickness comes with imperfection received by inheritance from our first parents, Adam and Eve. In fact, deadly diseases are often inherited by children from parents. Adam passed on to his unborn offspring the sin and death he and Eve brought upon themselves by rebelling against God. (Romans 5:12) This sin and death has spread to all men. One horrible consequence of this are the many diseases and deformities suffered by so many.
God has promised to remove these illnesses once he has first removed the wicked ones from the Earth. Under God's Kingdom rule "no resident will say: I am sick. The people that are dwelling in [the land] will be those pardoned for their error." (Isaiah 33:24) "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away... And he [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away. (Revelation 21:1-4)
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn
Many Christians (myself included) believe that illness, disabilities and birth defects are the result of sin being present in this world - man's fallen state.
Furthermore, as you stated, unhealthy lifestyles also cause illness and disability - and of course, also birth defects. Often, unhealthy lifestyles are the result of sin. So - in that way, sin causes some illnesses and disabilities.
I don't believe that God uses illness or disability as some sort of punishment - as in, "You are a habitual liar - therefore I'm going to strike you with scoliosis!"
I do believe, however, that God does allow us to sometimes suffer the ramifications of our actions.
What does that mean?
What this means is that sin is present in this world and as Stephen so aptly put it, sin is disharmony and dissonance of being. "Sin" literally means "missing the mark."
This introduces imperfection, flaws, etc. into our world - our genes, our philosophies, our value systems, our judgment, our environment, etc.
We suffer the natural outcome of these flaws. Some we can avoid - by avoiding sin, or avoiding flawed scenarios. Others are basically unavoidable (death and some illnesses and accidents, etc.) and are just a part of our flawed life in this world.
:sarcastic
What a bizarre interpretation. I think a much more reasonable reading is as an expression of incredulity on the part of the disciples. Living in a society that viewed misfortune as the consequences of sin (see Job for the most famous example of this), they were pointing out that this led to an absurd conclusion: "if he's being punished for his sin, how could he have sinned before he was born?"
On its face, the passage is no more an endorsement of the idea of a pre-mortal existence than "well, if you didn't take my hammer, did it sprout wings and fly away?" is an endorsement of conscious flying tools.
IOW, it's a rejection of the idea of "premortal life", not an endorsement of it. They're pointing out that in their view, they have a problem: if misfortune is a consequence of sin, then it's either a consequence of the parents' sin, which would have been unjust, or a consequence of the man's own sin, which would have been impossible. Jesus points out to them that there's a third possibility that they didn't consider.
If you want to square this with LDS theology, then you can discount the rejection by noting that it's the often-wrong disciples that make it and not Jesus (though he doesn't seem to worried about correcting them on the point), but still, a straightforward reading of the text gives nothing like the meaning you've assigned to it.
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Yes, much to researchers' chagrin
the source of all illness is sin.
No bug or disease,
it's all cuz God sees
the state that the world is in.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
If you believe in God or not .
There is no connection between sickness and disability and sin.
It is not even a Christian belief that God would harm anyone for sinning.
For those that do not believe in God , even the concept of sin is meaningless.
There is no connection between sickness and disability and sin.
It is not even a Christian belief that God would harm anyone for sinning.
For those that do not believe in God , even the concept of sin is meaningless.
idea
Question Everything
before we were born, we were pure spirit - no body. We progressed as far as we were able to without a body before we were born. There are many things that can only be learned when spirit is joined to flesh - like self-control (spirits can't eat chocolate
). refined to what? refined into a perfect, all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful being.
However, it is Christian belief that God created everything and that God is good, isn't it? The problem of evil has to be reconciled somehow.
I wouldn't say that. I can appreciate the meaning.
I imagine that you don't believe in the Jedi (not literally, anyhow) - is the concept of "the Force" meaningless to you?
Man of Faith
Well-Known Member
Indirectly, all illness and disablity are a result of the original sin and fall of mankind and the universe. That is when sin, disease, and sickness started spreading through the whole world hitting the just and unjust alike. And during times of greater sins they spread faster.
idea
Question Everything
so, you don't like the idea of a premortal life, so... the apostles must have just been "joking around" when they said that? here are some other scriptures for you about the premortal life... you can decide if these are also just "joking around
Our birth was not our beginning
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
We existed before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Job 38: 4 Where wast thou
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
We are sons and daughters of God
Psa 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
we were there we shouted for joy.
Ecc 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
return means coming to a state that we have previously been to not come as if it were our first experience, but return
Zech 12:1 the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
He formed our spirit before He placed us here on Earth. We call him our Heavenly Father because He is literally the father of our spirit spirit not created from nothingness, formed out of intelligences that God found Himself surrounded by.
There was a war in heaven in which Satan sought to take away our free agency. 1/3 of the formed spirits followed Satan and became fallen angels, never to receive a body. The other 2/3 us chose to come here. We are here because we chose to come here.
Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Luke 10: 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
More details on this war..
Moses 4: 1 AND I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, sayingBehold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto meFather, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
We chose to come to Earth
eteranl life... eteranl = no beginning, and no end. It is impossible to gain eternal life, if we are not already eternal beings....
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
But why would it be necessary to learn self-control when there is no adverse effect to eating the metaphorical chocolate?before we were born, we were pure spirit - no body. We progressed as far as we were able to without a body before we were born. There are many things that can only be learned when spirit is joined to flesh - like self-control (spirits can't eat chocolate
And the many many infants who die before anything meaningful can be learnt...?
Original sin spawned hundreds of species of bacterium and virus? That's a new one.
Not kidding with Jesus, but pointing out that neither obvious alternative "worked" in their minds, yes.
I don't give a fig about the idea of a premortal life. I do think that the ancient Hebrews in general and the disciples in particular probably rejected the idea, but if you want to think they were wrong, fine. My point was just that the passage you gave before doesn't say what you claimed it did.
I really don't care. Again: I'm not saying that you shouldn't believe in premortal life. I'm saying that the passage you gave from John 9 is not support for the idea of premortal life. Edit: and note that this is not the same thing as saying that there is no support for the idea of premortal life at all.here are some other scriptures for you about the premortal life... you can decide if these are also just "joking around
Unless one of these new passages says "oh, by the way, those disciples in John 9 really meant _____", they're all irrelevant to the point I'm actually making.
But now we're getting really far off-topic.
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Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Typically, as Kathryn said (post 7), Christians don't believe that God sends a disease on someone as a direct result of that person's sins. Some Christians believe this, but it's a very small but vocal fundamentalist minority. Rather, most Christians believe that the word "sin" denotes two things. First, it can denote an act of wrongdoing. Murder, on this idea, is a sin. Second, it can denote our fallen condition. That is, we are all born into a world that is subject to futility and decay. As part of the world, we are likewise subject. We are not "at fault" for this, but it is this condition which ultimately leads to our committing sins -- those acts for which we ARE culpable. It is also that condition which allows for such things as diseases, disorders, and other tragedies such as (what we call) natural disasters.
This view makes more sense with a look at Genesis 1, which opens:
In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:1-2, NRSV
The picture here is not creation ex nihilo. Rather, we begin with two elements in the beginning: God and a watery formless void. Creation then, involves God overcoming that watery chaos to create a hospitable, life-sustaining, and inhabited world. In the seperate creation account, we are in Eden -- paradise -- where we find, completely unexplained and perhaps contrary to modern expectations, the serpent, a deceiver. In other words, the picture is that of a creation which was born out of chaos and which yet retains elements of chaos and destruction yet which is made (and continues to be made) inhabitable, full, and beautiful by the strong and faithful hand of God.
On this view, disease and other ills are explained as those chaotic elements (think of this as a bronze age shepherd might, not a modern mathematician exploring chaos theory) exerting their influence (like the serpent). As we are part of creation, we also have these chaotic elements in us, which gives rise to sin. So there is a co-incidence between sin and disease, but not necessarily a causal connection.
There is no one way for Christians to understand the connection between sin and disease. We hold that there IS a connection of some sort, but it is difficult to say more than that. I think what I've just described is at least a viable reading of our scriptures.
This view makes more sense with a look at Genesis 1, which opens:
In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:1-2, NRSV
The picture here is not creation ex nihilo. Rather, we begin with two elements in the beginning: God and a watery formless void. Creation then, involves God overcoming that watery chaos to create a hospitable, life-sustaining, and inhabited world. In the seperate creation account, we are in Eden -- paradise -- where we find, completely unexplained and perhaps contrary to modern expectations, the serpent, a deceiver. In other words, the picture is that of a creation which was born out of chaos and which yet retains elements of chaos and destruction yet which is made (and continues to be made) inhabitable, full, and beautiful by the strong and faithful hand of God.
On this view, disease and other ills are explained as those chaotic elements (think of this as a bronze age shepherd might, not a modern mathematician exploring chaos theory) exerting their influence (like the serpent). As we are part of creation, we also have these chaotic elements in us, which gives rise to sin. So there is a co-incidence between sin and disease, but not necessarily a causal connection.
There is no one way for Christians to understand the connection between sin and disease. We hold that there IS a connection of some sort, but it is difficult to say more than that. I think what I've just described is at least a viable reading of our scriptures.
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PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
But God could have made the world perfect, with no chaotic or damaging elements whatsoever. Why didn't He?
Man of Faith
Well-Known Member
He did, but things changed after the first sin.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
No he didn't. Try again.
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
No, he didn't. He made it "very good." At least, Eden was "very good" after the creation of Eve and her unity with Adam. But what about the word outside Eden?
Man of Faith
Well-Known Member
There were no disabilities in the first humans.