I'm Confused about Pagans

[LimeDragon99]

This is from a Agnostic Atheist's view point.

So I'm going to start this off by getting to the question, how do you know any of the Pagan branches and gods are real? Usually with other religions like Christianity or Islam it is because of their holy books, but from what I see with Pagan branches like Asatru/Heathenry for example people join it because of their Heritage, but I don't understand how that could possibly be evidence of the existence of gods like Odin or Zeus. Others I seen enter these branches because of what they call spiritual connections, stuff I use to believe in before became Agnostic Atheist and turned away "spiritual connections" for scientific facts and evidence. I'm sorry, I just don't understand this sort of thing anymore.

Some might ask me how I don't understand this sort of thing if I'm Agnostic Atheist instead of just a Atheist, that's because I don't believe there is a god or any god, and any spiritual belief that involves our lives and this world is just stupid and we can understand our lives and this world using science and evidence instead of pure religious faith, but the thing is while I believe that most likely nothing happens after death and it's just nothingness and blackness, I still think a afterlife is a possibility.

The reason I ask is because I listen to a lot of Pagan Folk Music, like Faun Wardruna and Forndom. To me it's a music thing, but I see so many people take it as a sort of spiritual path and faith.

 

[Maponos]

How do you know the gods aren't real? Our gods reflect something greater but also reflect our cultures simultaneously.

 

[LimeDragon99]

How do you know the gods aren't real? Our gods reflect something greater but also reflect our cultures simultaneously.

Because in my eyes, scientists have found much more facts about our world then any religion, we know many facts about how the earth works as in how night turns to day, the layers of our world, planets far beyond of our solar system, and so much more, but none of them said that a god controlling all that was a scientific fact. Plus you can never really know there is a god because no god has ever appeared from the skies and told us himself or herself.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

So I'm going to start this off by getting to the question, how do you know any of the Pagan branches and gods are real?

Maybe I misunderstood, but it appears this is the only question you were asking in the OP. At least, that is what I'm going to respond to.

I am an animist, and I don't do God or gods or oneness, etc. I believe everything is/has spirit, is (at least potentially) an other-than-human person with whom I may be able to interact. Why do I believe that everything is/has spirit, is persons? I believe because that is what I experience. Some spirits are little, some are humongous, really at the edge of my ability to perceive and conceive, some are impersonal, some are more personal. They have different traits, do different things...but all are persons, or at least potentially so. But I see and interact with them on a regular and ongoing basis; that is: How do I know they are real? I experience them.

Mostly, the really big ones I see (such as storms, Earth, Sun, Moon, etc.) might be considered "gods/goddesses" by others, but I don't. At the same time, I really don't care what anyone else believes, as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on me, and I'm certainly not going to try to impose on them.

 

[Draka]

Christianity has their mythology book, Islam has its mythology book, and different Pagan faiths have their mythologies as well. Just because the myth tales aren't written down with neat little chapters and numbers doesn't mean the stories are not just as meaningful to those who find meaning within them. Most Pagan faiths are quite the seek and find thing. There is a lot of searching and contemplation one must go through to find what they glean from the myths and legends. All myths have some inner meaning. All have many of the same basic archetypes and messages. It's just a matter of what sings to you.

 

[Quintessence]

@LimeDragon99, this thread really can't stay in the DIR with how you are approaching it. DIRs are for members of that group only, and outsiders can only ask respectful questions (see Rule 10). This thread can be moved to either Religions Q&A (which is a non-debate forum) or to Religious Debates (which is a debate forum). Where would you like us to move it to? Currently it sounds like you are wanting to debate as your reply to another member disputes Pagan traditions rather than aims to simply learn about them, so I would recommend Religious Debates.

 

[lovesong]

So I'm going to start this off by getting to the question, how do you know any of the Pagan branches and gods are real? Usually with other religions like Christianity or Islam it is because of their holy books, but from what I see with Pagan branches like Asatru/Heathenry for example people join it because of their Heritage, but I don't understand how that could possibly be evidence of the existence of gods like Odin or Zeus.

And the bible and quran are evidence? Holy books are nothing more than written, standardized mythology. Stories and fables about their gods are no more supported than ours, just because they've become popular.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

Is theistic Hinduism, Vaishnavism, Shinto, etc are pagan too?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because in my eyes, scientists have found much more facts about our world then any religion, we know many facts about how the earth works as in how night turns to day, the layers of our world, planets far beyond of our solar system, and so much more, but none of them said that a god controlling all that was a scientific fact. Plus you can never really know there is a god because no god has ever appeared from the skies and told us himself or herself.

I believe in multiple spirits and I am an animist; so, you can stretch that to polytheist, if you like and hence a Pagan.

On that note, how I see Pagan religion as a reflection of my beliefs and practices (not defining others) is that you cannot compare Christianity and like perspective of deities with Pagans and how we view our deities or spirits. In my opinion, I feel the perspectives are completely different and has no "need evidence" unless you are talking to a hard polytheist who actually believes in literally more than on deity. However, a lot of us are from one side in between and to the other. In other words, it's not point-blank as many Abrahamics make it seem.

How do I know the gods or spirits (since I don't worship them) are real? Experience. I think of it like this. Think of a person who you love. You know that that person, I'll say Sam, loves you too. How do you know? Love isn't physical. It's not defined by physiological changes. What may seem like "love at first sight" for you may be just a smile and a wink to me. It's all in perspective and experience. So, in my personal view, the experience of the spirits is how I know they exist. It isn't a "prove a spirit or entity is a person floating in the sky" type of thing. That's not my personal belief. That's like saying love can take form and fly over our heads.

Scientifically, it has to do with psychology. Many people miss that when they talk about science and religion. They focus on the physical part and forget that a lot of our spiritual experiences are from our mind as well if not all.

I would look at it from a psychological perspective. It's still scientific since mental health has been studied for eons.

That and I agree with Quin. I vote for Religious Debates, though. I don't think you want to debate. We can easily challenge each other's beliefs without it becoming a debate just a discussion. To be safe, though, create a thread and you'd get more perspective there.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

So I'm going to start this off by getting to the question, how do you know any of the Pagan branches and gods are real?

Personal experience. I called out to Aphrodite in a moment of need and she answered. Quite promptly, in fact.

 

[Mindmaster]

The reason I ask is because I listen to a lot of Pagan Folk Music, like Faun Wardruna and Forndom. To me it's a music thing, but I see so many people take it as a sort of spiritual path and faith.

Many Pagans who believe in God(dess)(e)s directly experience them in some way, so while lore is important it's just a story about the thing, not the thing itself in the case of various myths. Abrahamic religions have no direct equivalent to this experience as they would be forbidden to do such rituals and if they did they'd probably be made heretics or said to be possessed by demons. To simplify this, Pagans are effectively their own priest or shaman. They require no intermediary. So it is probably incorrect to say that if a Pagan knows of a deity it is because they believe they are there, it is more that they in some way know as such through a direct experience.

There are plenty of atheist Pagans as well, and certain paths are known to have many, for example, Heathenry and Druidry. If there is anything that is certain is there is no over-reaching consensus on this subject though certain soft-definitions apply there isn't the dogma which supports conformity in Pagan circles.

If you really like Pagan music I'd refer you to DruidCast, it is a podcast put out by the Order of Bards, Ovates, and Druids. Plenty of Celtic music, and various "talky bits" with various figures in the Pagan community. A good place to learn, and if you are already of fan of that type of music you will enjoy it. (There is much more than Druidry on the podcast, so don't think it's some sort of pitch. )

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is theistic Hinduism, Vaishnavism, Shinto, etc are pagan too?

IMHO, we (Hindus - Vaishnavas, Shaivas, Shaktas, Smartas) are very much pagan but do not belong to Neo-pagans or Revival Religions, because, fortunately, ours is a living tradition, being practiced for more than 5,000 years.

 

[Riverwolf]

This is from a Agnostic Atheist's view point.

So I'm going to start this off by getting to the question, how do you know any of the Pagan branches and gods are real?

Speaking for myself, I don't. Neither do I care, because it doesn't actually matter all that much. You're an agnostic atheist, I'm an agnostic polytheist.

The reason I ask is because I listen to a lot of Pagan Folk Music, like Faun Wardruna and Forndom. To me it's a music thing, but I see so many people take it as a sort of spiritual path and faith.

Yup. Music is a BIG part of our traditions, as are other forms of artistic expression. You'll see the same thing in unbroken indigenous traditions, as well.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Is theistic Hinduism, Vaishnavism, Shinto, etc are pagan too?

Shinto could be considered pagan, as an indigenous, polytheistic and animistic folkway. Hinduism is debatable, imo, depending on how you wish to define paganism.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Music is a BIG part of our traditions, as are other forms of artistic expression. You'll see the same thing in unbroken indigenous traditions, as well.

I would say that music and the other arts are a big part of our experiences, and beliefs arise out of those experiences more than the other way around.

 

[Riverwolf]

I would say that music and the other arts are a big part of our experiences, and beliefs arise out of those experiences more than the other way around.

Most of my "religiously inspiring" music was written without my religion in mind. Heck, most of it probably without even knowing my religion even exists.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

You're in the wrong directory, but I'll answer you.

How do we know that gods exist? Because people experience them. Atheists will reject such testimony, but not on any logical grounds. The only reason to reject an experience (or, rather its interpretation) is if the supposed experiencer is unreliable (e.g. drunk, insane) or the supposed object of the experience is hightly implausible (e.g. a dinosaur in the garden). Surveys show that people who have religious experiences are no more suggestible than average (a US survey) and better educated than average (a UK survey). As for the idea that gods cannot exist, that is not founded on anything but prejudice.

One point about Paganism is that it's founded on the repeated experience of many people over thousands of years. You mention "holy books". The Quran or Isaiah are texts that one person published: what evidence do we have for their reliability? Tomorrow is a festival of Asklepios: people have been experiencing him for time out of mind, including me when he disliked the way I'd painted his image!

Do the physical sciences explain everything? Well, anyone who believes that is easily satisfied, has an odd idea of explanation, or hasn't actually much knowledge of science! Science isn't in the business of explaining, but of describing. The apple falls to earth because of gravity, and physics can quantify that phenomenon, but it can't explain why it exists. A hydrogen atom contains one proton and that contains three quarks — which cannot actually be experienced, much less explained.

And what about the non-material world? What do quarks or gravity tell us about how to live our lives? Nothing. As Wittgenstein said, if all the questions asked by physicists were answered today, those asked by ordinary people would still be there tomorrow.

 

[VioletVortex]

A god, force, or spiritual being is not something you read about in a book. It is something that a person "feels". I really hate stating it that way, as "feel" is a much overused term when it comes to discussing religion, but I think it's most fitting.

A scripture isn't necessarily any more accurate than oral tradition. And it is definitely less accurate than feeling.

I don't claim I know anything about spiritual stuff. It's a feeling, not knowing for sure.

 

[Quintessence]

*** thread moved to Religious Debates per staff consensus ***​

 

[Aštra’el]

What do you mean by "real"?