I'm Confused about Pagans

[Riverwolf]

What do you mean by "real"?

I once saw a quote that went something like, "reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." And while that does seem to make sense at first, it didn't take me much thought to realize just how encouraging to hear that must be for people who suffer from visual and auditory hallucinations!

 

[Quintessence]

I suppose I should actually respond to the question now that the thread is moved and I can unleash trees on the OP properly. Muahahahah!

I'd observe that the OP suffers from mythological literalism syndrome. Read a nice essay recently by one of my favorite Druid bloggers that I think applies to the thread. John Beckett recently critiqued Jared Diamond's new book that attempts to explain the persistence of religion from the standpoint of evolutionary functionality. There are two things in Beckett's essay I'd like to draw on here:

"There are two serious problems with [Diamond's] list, though. The first is the idea that religion evolved to “explain the natural world, absent scientific understanding of the universe.” When we read stories of Apollo driving the sun across the sky in a chariot or Ra traversing the perils of the underworld each night to bring the sun back to the east, we are reading myths – stories people told themselves to give their world meaning and structure. To imply the ancients thought they were literally true because they didn’t have “proper” science is an ethnocentric insult."
--- J. Beckett​

A book I would recommend to anyone who is suffering from mythological literalism syndrome is Karen Armstrong's "A Short History of Myth." Reading this will give people a better idea of how contemporary Pagans tend to approach mythology, and that's not with a literalist lens. To many contemporary Pagans, the question "are your gods real" is the wrong question to ask, and missing the point. But I want to touch upon a more important point that Beckett brings up that is at the heart of contemporary Paganism:

"But what’s really missing from this list is anything resembling religious experience. Christianity as we know it began with Paul’s Damascus Road experience of Jesus. Islam began when the angel Gabriel appeared to Muhammad. Buddhism began when Siddhartha Gautama sat under the Bodhi tree until he received enlightenment and became the Buddha.

...

Our mainstream culture tells us religion is all about what we believe. There’s a place for belief in modern Paganism and polytheism, but that place comes after experience."
--- J. Beckett​

Paganisms are grounded in, above all else, direct personal experience of the world around us. It's important to keep in mind that the various Pagan gods are phenomena we experience in the world around us, as gods in Paganisms are immanent rather than transcendent. It's not like the one-god where the god is considered separate from nature - our gods are nature. I sometimes like to describe Paganisms as mystical religions, because there is such an emphasis on religious/mystical experience; this is a strong contrast to the model most think of about religion in my country, given it is dominated by revealed religions and not mystical religions.

 

[Riverwolf]

mythological literalism syndrome.

Okay, I love that term. SOOO going to use it from here on out.

Paganisms are grounded in, above all else, direct personal experience of the world around us. It's important to keep in mind that the various Pagan gods are phenomena we experience in the world around us, as gods in Paganisms are immanent rather than transcendent.

Thor is NOT the "God of Thunder." In actuality, that makes no sense, especially given that lightning is just a small part of him as a deity.

Thunder Earthson IS Thunder.

 

[Quintessence]

Okay, I love that term. SOOO going to use it from here on out.

Man, you're going to make me regret coming up with that today, aren't you? LOL.

 

[Riverwolf]

Man, you're going to make me regret coming up with that today, aren't you? LOL.

We all regret it when the clever things we come up with actually end up getting used, and subsequently devalued from overuse, by others.

 

[Erebus]

This is from a Agnostic Atheist's view point.

So I'm going to start this off by getting to the question, how do you know any of the Pagan branches and gods are real? Usually with other religions like Christianity or Islam it is because of their holy books, but from what I see with Pagan branches like Asatru/Heathenry for example people join it because of their Heritage, but I don't understand how that could possibly be evidence of the existence of gods like Odin or Zeus. Others I seen enter these branches because of what they call spiritual connections, stuff I use to believe in before became Agnostic Atheist and turned away "spiritual connections" for scientific facts and evidence. I'm sorry, I just don't understand this sort of thing anymore.

Some might ask me how I don't understand this sort of thing if I'm Agnostic Atheist instead of just a Atheist, that's because I don't believe there is a god or any god, and any spiritual belief that involves our lives and this world is just stupid and we can understand our lives and this world using science and evidence instead of pure religious faith, but the thing is while I believe that most likely nothing happens after death and it's just nothingness and blackness, I still think a afterlife is a possibility.

The reason I ask is because I listen to a lot of Pagan Folk Music, like Faun Wardruna and Forndom. To me it's a music thing, but I see so many people take it as a sort of spiritual path and faith.

Different Pagans will have different approaches since, as a rule, Paganism emphasises coming to your own conclusions. I'll share my own approach to things, but keep in mind that my views aren't representative of all Pagans.

My view on gods can be a little bit complicated, but to put it simply, I view gods as aspects of nature. To me, Erebus literally is darkness for example. So how do I know Erebus is real? Simple, whenever I'm in darkness, I'm surrounded by Erebus. At that point, asking for evidence or proof of these gods becomes something of an odd question. Look around you and you're looking at the gods.

Perhaps a more pressing question would be why I view these things as gods. There isn't a single answer to that. Firstly, I suspect that some combination of my nature and background makes me inclined towards theism. If I'm right, then I was always going to view something as a god to begin with.
Secondly, I genuinely feel that there are elements of nature that are absolutely worthy of being viewed as gods. They inspire awe, fear and delight. They can be nurturing or destructive. When people say "but it's just thunder/darkness/the sea, etc" there's a part of me that feels they lack proper appreciation for those things. I don't begrudge them their views, I just view these things as "more" than they seem to.
Finally, I've always been drawn to folklore, mythology and story-telling. I feel that by honouring my gods, I'm keeping some of those folkloric things alive in my own little way.

Hope this helps

 

[Marsh]

This is from a Agnostic Atheist's view point.

... I don't understand how that could possibly be evidence of the existence of gods like Odin or Zeus. Others I seen enter these branches because of what they call spiritual connections, stuff I use to believe in before became Agnostic Atheist and turned away "spiritual connections" for scientific facts and evidence. I'm sorry, I just don't understand this sort of thing anymore.

Did you ever understand how people could come to believe in such gods? Like you I don't understand it either, but truth be-told I never did, not even as a former Christian. If one is not raised to believe in Zeus or Odin from childhood then how does one come to believe? Good question.

Some might ask me how I don't understand this sort of thing if I'm Agnostic Atheist instead of just a Atheist...

The word agnostic is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as "a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God," yet you seem quite convinced there is no God. Why not just call yourself an atheist? In your defence Richard Dawkins asserts that faith exists on a sliding scale (with which I agree), and reasons that an agnostic might lean toward theism or atheism, but then wouldn't you simply say, "I don't know whether or not God exists, but I am inclined to think he does not."

I suppose my question to you then is, are you quite certain there is no God, or are you for the moment uncertain, but leaning to atheism?

...that's because I don't believe there is a god or any god...

Oh! Then why, with that kind of certainty, would you call yourself an agnostic?[/quote]

...and any spiritual belief that involves our lives and this world is just stupid and we can understand our lives and this world using science and evidence instead of pure religious faith, but the thing is while I believe that most likely nothing happens after death and it's just nothingness and blackness, I still think a afterlife is a possibility.

When I was a Christian I believed in an afterlife and as a young atheist I continued to believe in an afterlife. The afterlife is a separate issue from God and there are those atheists who surmise the afterlife is a natural phenomena that science simply does not have a handle on yet. "Spiritual belief" may seem "stupid," or perhaps that is just a poor word choice. It may seem incomprehensible to some of us that others continue to believe gods exist, or that life can continue without a physical body and brain, but I am with you on that. I am like doubting Thomas. I need to put my finger in the wound of Christ before I can accept that he's returned from the grave, and I need to die and meet my deceased friends and relatives before I can believe there is life after death.

The reason I ask is because I listen to a lot of Pagan Folk Music, like Faun Wardruna and Forndom. To me it's a music thing, but I see so many people take it as a sort of spiritual path and faith.

There's pagan folk music!? I think I will have to have a listen. Thank you.

 

[Riverwolf]

Did you ever understand how people could come to believe in such gods? Like you I don't understand it either, but truth be-told I never did, not even as a former Christian. If one is not raised to believe in Zeus or Odin from childhood then how does one come to believe? Good question.

It may sound like it at first, but it's actually the wrong question. "Belief" just isn't that important to many Pagans.

When I was a Christian I believed in an afterlife and as a young atheist I continued to believe in an afterlife. The afterlife is a separate issue from God and there are those atheists who surmise the afterlife is a natural phenomena that science simply does not have a handle on yet. "Spiritual belief" may seem "stupid," or perhaps that is just a poor word choice. It may seem incomprehensible to some of us that others continue to believe gods exist, or that life can continue without a physical body and brain, but I am with you on that. I am like doubting Thomas. I need to put my finger in the wound of Christ before I can accept that he's returned from the grave, and I need to die and meet my deceased friends and relatives before I can believe there is life after death.

I will also say that, even though I'm a theist, I very much have doubts about an afterlife, as well.

There's pagan folk music!? I think I will have to have a listen. Thank you.

Some other favorites of mine: Damh the Bard, Blackmore's Night, the album Mythos Hildebrandslied by German group Duivelspeck, and there's also the music by Adrien Von Ziegler on Youtube, which isn't necessarily Pagan, but it does still sing to me on a spiritual level.

 

[ShadowFire]

Have you ever seen Mother Earth, Father Sun, Sister Moon in their Sacred state oif being? Have you heard the gentle whispers of the trees as they softly speak to you from the Sacred winds? Have you seen the shy frog leap into the pond or the mighty Eagle soar above you? What about the gentle brook that quietly passes by you or the thundering crash of the oceans waves against the reef announcing its mighty presence! How about the power of a thundering rain storm or the beauty of a smile, the acknowledgement from another that you are a sacred worthy to be admired and loved! Have you seen the dead that walk among us? What about the living that are oblivious to the sacred and magical world that surrounds us all in total glory and blissful ecstasy? If you haven't seen the things I mentioned above I can't offer proof of a spiritual religious life but I pray one day in your searches for your soul that your eyes be opened to the awe inspiring magical life that awaits you!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Have you heard the gentle whispers of the trees as they softly speak to you from the Sacred winds? Have you seen the shy frog leap into the pond or the mighty Eagle soar above you? What about the gentle brook that quietly passes by you or the thundering crash of the oceans waves against the reef announcing its mighty presence! How about the power of a thundering rain storm or the beauty of a smile, the acknowledgement from another that you are a sacred worthy to be admired and loved! Have you seen the dead that walk among us?

Yes, and it's all wonderful stuff, but what has it to do with believing in gods? Why do assume something behind the natural world?

PS I haven't seen the dead walk among us, unless you mean smartphone smombies.

 

[Quintessence]

Yes, and it's all wonderful stuff, but what has it to do with believing in gods? Why do assume something behind the natural world?

It's important to remember that transcendence (aka, defining gods as something "behind" and separate from the natural world) is largely a classical monotheist assumption and is uncommon outside of that umbrella. Pagan theologies usually emphasize immanence, meaning there is no wedge placed between the gods and reality - reality is the gods, nature is the gods; the gods are not "behind" nature, they are nature.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Pagan theologies usually emphasize immanence, meaning there is no wedge placed between the gods and reality - reality is the gods, nature is the gods; the gods are not "behind" nature, they are nature.

OK, but why "add" the idea of gods at all? What's wrong with a naturalistic approach?

 

[Quintessence]

OK, but why "add" the idea of gods at all? What's wrong with a naturalistic approach?

Deification doesn't mean one has shifted away from a naturalistic approach. As said before, Pagan theologies emphasize divine immanence, meaning nature is the gods, which also means the gods are not supernatural or "above/beyond" nature. I understand that most in Western cultures think gods must be supernatural because classical monotheism emphasizes that transcendence aspect, but that isn't the case in other types of theism, including those that tend to be found in Paganisms.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Deification doesn't mean one has shifted away from a naturalistic approach. As said before, Pagan theologies emphasize divine immanence, meaning nature is the gods, which also means the gods are not supernatural or "above/beyond" nature.

But what is the value in looking at nature as something with gods "in" it? I mean compared to just looking at nature and not making such assumptions.

What are the benefits of believing in gods?

 

[Riverwolf]

But what is the value in looking at nature as something with gods "in" it? I mean compared to just looking at nature and not making such assumptions.

What are the benefits of believing in gods?

I don't think you're understanding. You're still stuck in that classical monotheist mindset of the Gods as something inherently distinct from natural things.

What is Sun?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

But what is the value in looking at nature as something with gods "in" it? I mean compared to just looking at nature and not making such assumptions. What are the benefits of believing in gods?

What is the benefit in believing in kangaroos? One doesn't believe because of some sort of return. I believe in the Big Bang hypothesis, but I don't expect to benefit from that. And "belief" is not really an appropriate word. I don't believe in the existence of kangaroos or gods, nor do I assume it: I know.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I don't think you're understanding. You're still stuck in that classical monotheist mindset of the Gods as something inherently distinct from natural things.

I don't think I am, I understand that gods are viewed as part of the natural world. I'm asking what is the benefit of believing in nature gods, as compared to not believing in them.

I understand reverence for nature, what I don't get is deifying aspects of it.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What is the benefit in believing in kangaroos? One doesn't believe because of some sort of return. I believe in the Big Bang hypothesis, but I don't expect to benefit from that. And "belief" is not really an appropriate word. I don't believe in the existence of kangaroos or gods, nor do I assume it: I know.

In what sense do you know? What exactly is your knowing based on?

 

[Quintessence]

I don't think I am, I understand that gods are viewed as part of the natural world. I'm asking what is the benefit of believing in nature gods, as compared to not believing in them.

@DavidMcCann already covered this well. These questions don't make much sense from a Pagan perspective.

I understand that the questions make sense to most folks whose understanding of what religion is and what religion does is rooted in Christian norms. Christianity makes a big deal of trumpeting the benefits of believing in their god, and proselytizing is common. This is not the case in Paganisms. There is no "hell" to be "saved" from if you "believe in" our gods. The gods won't do you any favors for believing in them, and Paganisms aren't about "believing in" stuff. I do not "believe in" my gods, at least not in the sense that is commonly meant by "believe in." It really is like asking me "what is the benefit of believing in earth and all of its various aspects?" That's silly.

To frame things another way, "believing in" the gods isn't really applicable, and even if it was, it's not about self-centered benefits. Maybe because Pagans really don't care about selling anyone their religions. You follow these paths if they call to you. Leave it alone if it doesn't.

It may be worth backing up a second here to point something out. We need to ask what it means to call something "gods." The answer is that varies from culture to culture, and things are gods because some person or culture chooses to deify them. Deification is a way of designating a particular sort of relationship between people - one of honor, reverence and respect. In that sense, deification is like applying an honorific title to something, akin to "Lord" or "Lady." A person who deifies and worships Storm like me might leave an offering of incense for a passing storm, while someone who doesn't won't bother. Paganisms are much more about what you do than what you believe. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Riverwolf]

I don't think I am, I understand that gods are viewed as part of the natural world.

The key aspect of your misunderstanding seems to come from that one phrase: "part of".

I understand reverence for nature, what I don't get is deifying aspects of it.

You don't get that we see no significant difference between these two views.