I'm split between these roads.

[Hiawoofa]

Hello, My name is Jordan. I was once a faithful christian who loved the idea of God, of Heaven, and feared the thought of a Hell. But, then I thought, and thought, and thought. And I came to the conclusion that it was all just an IDEA. Now, I'm not here to argue about the existence of God, and Heaven, and Hell. I respect everybody's opinion, and I understand that we all have our own. I'm just lost.

As a young child, I was never forced to be a Christian, it wasn't shoved down my throat as I see it being done regularly to others. But I believed. If somebody asked if I believed, my automatic response was yes. It wasn't even a thought, just a... reflex if you will. But as I grew older, I started to realize the reason I would answer yes and continue to force myself to believe I was faithful was because honestly, I was scared. I was scared of reprimand. I was scared of where I'd end up if I didn't believe. Are most Christians this way, but just too afraid to admit it? I honestly don't know. I don't want the fear of the unknown to control my decisions.

I will admit, Christianity brings good morals to us. But to me, that's all it is. All religion is. Morals. It teaches us how to be a better person. But we obviously don't get it. Wars to prove our religion is right, and yours is wrong? Those don't seem like good morals to me. Not the kind we are taught anyway. Like I've read on another thread, if I like grapefruit, and you don't, am I going to force you to eat it and kill you if you don't? That's not right. =/ But that's what's happening. Why would God allow this to happen? Why? God's flooded the world before. Does he not have the power to stop these horrible acts? I just don't understand.

And all of those people in Asia and Africa who would laugh at the idea of our God or maybe haven't even heard of it, what will happen to them? With they be condemned to Hell? Will I? What will happen to the people who have never even been introduced to Christianity or any religion? What will happen to the Muslims who pray to Allah? What makes our God more real than theirs? I don't get this either.

If you can provide an answer to any of this, I would be grateful. Like I said, I want to believe, it just doesn't make sense to me. None of this. =/

 

[Tathagata]

I think this video of William Lane Craig should help you reconcile these theological issues. He explains why it's invalid to rely on your expectations of God to determine whether God is good or whether he even exists.

[youtube]qOrrvCmPKXU[/youtube]
YouTube - Does God Exist? William Lane Craig vs Austin Dacey 6/14


.

 

[Breathe]

Welcome to RF! Sorry to hear of your problems.

I'm not a Christian. I am a follower of Hinduism. I wasn't born into it though.

I do think some people do follow their religion out of fear, but not everyone does. I follow Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) out of love. Fear of the unknown is quite common though, sadly. It will take time but its influence will wane.

A large majorirty of people do not actually need religion for morals. Sometimes religions can obstruct morals, sadly - although there are probably some people for whom a fear of divine punishment is one of the reasons they don't do bad things. I hope these are few in number. Religions make great tools to make people hate each other, but often religious wars are not purely religious in nature, they are often for riches, often political, sometimes even along racial or ethnic lines. People can live next to their neighbours of a different religion for years, and all of a sudden they can hate each other and kill one another. I've never understood how people can do that.

What horrible acts do you speak of? Sorry, I don't follow.

I do not believe people are condemned to hell for following a different religion. I think for someone who would think they do, then they would believe that those who come from a place where they have never heard of their religion will not come to harm, since they have never known the religion and weren't able to reject it. As a Hindu, I believe in reincarnation (and moksha), instead of instant eternal Heaven or eternal Hell. You reap what you sow.

What will happen to those who pray to another God? To me, nothing. To me the most important thing from someone is ahimsa - non-injury, non-violence. It doesn't matter if you worship Yahweh (Jehovah), Jesus, Allah, or any other deity, so long as you do it with love (lip-service is worse than no service!). I do not think one who worships no God or gods has anything to fear, either.

What makes your God more real than another? I don't believe in such a thing, as I see all gods as manifestations of the One, and all religions are ways to that One. All roads lead to Rome, it's the journey that is different, and reaching the One can take longer for some than for others, but all will, eventually, meet God.

Of course, if you are looking for a Christian's response, then please feel free to ignore this, but I hope you find it useful.

 

[McBell]

I think this video of William Lane Craig should help you reconcile these theological issues. He explains why it's invalid to rely on your expectations of God to determine whether God is good or whether he even exists.

[youtube]qOrrvCmPKXU[/youtube]
YouTube - Does God Exist? William Lane Craig vs Austin Dacey 6/14


.

 

[sandandfoam]

What will happen to those who pray to another God? To me, nothing. To me the most important thing from someone is ahimsa - non-injury, non-violence. It doesn't matter if you worship Yahweh (Jehovah), Jesus, Allah, or any other deity, so long as you do it with love (lip-service is worse than no service!). I do not think one who worships no God or gods has anything to fear, either.

What makes your God more real than another? I don't believe in such a thing, as I see all gods as manifestations of the One, and all religions are ways to that One. All roads lead to Rome, it's the journey that is different, and reaching the One can take longer for some than for others, but all will, eventually, meet God.

Really great post.
Couldn't agree more with everthing you have said.

 

[Hiawoofa]

What makes your God more real than another? I don't believe in such a thing, as I see all gods as manifestations of the One, and all religions are ways to that One. All roads lead to Rome, it's the journey that is different, and reaching the One can take longer for some than for others, but all will, eventually, meet God.

I've actually considered this many times. And it makes me sad that people are fighting each other over religious beliefs when it's quite possible we have the same exact God. And I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. Horrible acts as in the wars in the Middle East that have been going on for centuries and just massive acts of violence that were influenced by someone's religion.

And I know the wars aren't fueled by religion alone but also greed. But in my opinion, that's what's happening to the Christian faith. All of these Super-Churches amassing crowds of followers tens-of-thousands strong and collecting their money each time worship is held. Pastors are losing themselves in this greed. Their sermons may still be there, but are they really putting their heart into it, or are they just contemplating the money they're going to earn from the donations? Whatever happened to little churches where everybody knew each other? What was wrong with that? I'm sorry if I'm getting off topic a little, I'm kind of tired and my writing isn't quite top-notch at the moment.

 

[jonman122]

I just think that because there has literally been no conclusive evidence supporting the idea of god, why should we even support the idea there is a god in the first place? The only evidence we seem to have for christianity is a book that is filled with tales of a god killing 2 million of his children in a flood, plaguing crops of people he sees are his enemies, allowing satan to do terrible things to Job and so on. Is that even a god that you want to believe in?

Another point is the bible is interpreted in so many different ways, but as soon as someone actually takes the time to read it they start to see all of these things that seemingly make no sense, how can the bible be the true set of morals when the god who apparently made these morals has no such moral standing himself?

 

[Hiawoofa]

Another point is the bible is interpreted in so many different ways, but as soon as someone actually takes the time to read it they start to see all of these things that seemingly make no sense, how can the bible be the true set of morals when the god who apparently made these morals has no such moral standing himself?

I see where you're going here, I'm just not sure if I follow. Can you elaborate for me please?

 

[idea]

Hello, My name is Jordan. I was once a faithful christian who loved the idea of God, of Heaven, and feared the thought of a Hell. But, then I thought, and thought, and thought. And I came to the conclusion that it was all just an IDEA. Now, I'm not here to argue about the existence of God, and Heaven, and Hell. I respect everybody's opinion, and I understand that we all have our own. I'm just lost.

As a young child, I was never forced to be a Christian, it wasn't shoved down my throat as I see it being done regularly to others. But I believed. If somebody asked if I believed, my automatic response was yes. It wasn't even a thought, just a... reflex if you will. But as I grew older, I started to realize the reason I would answer yes and continue to force myself to believe I was faithful was because honestly, I was scared. I was scared of reprimand. I was scared of where I'd end up if I didn't believe. Are most Christians this way, but just too afraid to admit it? I honestly don't know. I don't want the fear of the unknown to control my decisions.

I too was never forced into anything growing up - and am so thankful for that. I did not really believe in anything, agnostic I guess - my parents taught me that hell was not real, so I was never fearful of anything. I converted to the LDS church after having a very powerful spiritual experience there. I was taking a comparative religions class at college, one of the assignments was to attend a religious meeting of a group we had never met before - and I ended up going to the Mormon church (one of the few I had never actually set foot in). So I was in a class, had an experience that is hard to describe in words - not the evangelical, throw your hands in the air, work yourself into a frenzy kind of thing - just a normal class - I actually had ended up in a little kids class because I knew the teacher, so a bunch of squirmy misbehaving 12-13yo's (not really a spiritual environment) and in the middle of it, a power overtook me - opened my mind, there was another being in the room... it scared me a bit (kind of like the shepherds when Christ was born, "fear not" was the first thing the angels told them) anyways, it never really crossed my mind that it was real - thought it was just ideas of men, good ideas, it never really occurred to me that you could actually see angels - well I did not see anything, but there was no doubt in my mind that we are not alone. So, anyways, I am not a believer out of fear... I am a believer because of a few experiences...

I will admit, Christianity brings good morals to us. But to me, that's all it is. All religion is. Morals. It teaches us how to be a better person. But we obviously don't get it. Wars to prove our religion is right, and yours is wrong? Those don't seem like good morals to me. Not the kind we are taught anyway. Like I've read on another thread, if I like grapefruit, and you don't, am I going to force you to eat it and kill you if you don't? That's not right. =/ But that's what's happening. Why would God allow this to happen? Why? God's flooded the world before. Does he not have the power to stop these horrible acts? I just don't understand.

This life is a test, we are free agents. God will not take away our free will, our ability to think, and act - for to do so would take away our ability to love. Robots can't love - only those with free will can love. God will not make us into Robots...

here is an account of a horrible thing, and why God did not step in to stop it...

(Book of Mormon | Alma14:10 - 11)
10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.
11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the cblood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

this life is a test - who will be given great power, and who will not. It's not just a thought experiment - it has to be real. If they did not really die, those responsible could have said "I thought it, but I would have never actually done it, I'm not really that bad..." in order for their judgement to be just (judgement = they will not be given any power) it had to be proven that no, this is not just a thought, this is something you actually did - this is really who you are.... we are allowed to act, to show who we really are, so that there will be no confusion on the subject in the next life.

 

[idea]

And all of those people in Asia and Africa who would laugh at the idea of our God or maybe haven't even heard of it, what will happen to them?

that is what temple work is for. Between death and resurrection, there is a temporary period of time where those who have not learned/had the opportunity to accept Christ in this life, will have that opportunity in the next life. Currently, and during the millinium (the 1,000 years in which Christ will reign personally on the Earth) proxy baptisms and ordinances will be performed for all mankind. Those in the spirit world can accept/reject these ordinances after they gain a full understanding of it all.

see:
(Guide to the Scriptures | SSalvation for the Dead.:Entry)
SALVATION FOR THE DEAD. See also Book of Remembrance; Genealogy; Plan of Redemption; Salvation
The opportunity for those who have died without receiving the saving ordinances of the gospel to have these ordinances performed for them in temples by worthy living members of the Church. The dead are taught the gospel in the spirit world and may accept the ordinances performed for them in mortality.
Faithful members of the Church research and prepare family histories to determine the names and birth dates of ancestors so that the saving ordinances may be performed for them.
Say to the prisoners, Go forth, Isa. 49:9 (Isa. 24:22; 1 Ne. 21:9). Proclaim liberty to the captives, Isa. 61:1 (Luke 4:18). He shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, Mal. 4:5–6 (3 Ne. 25:5–6; D&C 110:13–16). The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, John 5:25. Why are they then baptized for the dead? 1 Cor. 15:29. Christ preached unto the spirits in prison, 1 Pet. 3:18–20. For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, 1 Pet. 4:6. The Son visited the spirits in prison, D&C 76:73. Then cometh the redemption of those who have received their part in that prison, D&C 88:99. A baptismal font is not upon the earth that my Saints may be baptized for those who are dead, D&C 124:29. All those who have died who would have accepted the gospel will be heirs to the celestial kingdom, D&C 137:7–10. The Son of God appeared declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful, D&C 138:18. As many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, Moses 7:57.

With they be condemned to Hell? Will I? What will happen to the people who have never even been introduced to Christianity or any religion? What will happen to the Muslims who pray to Allah? What makes our God more real than theirs? I don't get this either.

If you can provide an answer to any of this, I would be grateful. Like I said, I want to believe, it just doesn't make sense to me. None of this. =/

(New Testament | 1 Peter4:6)
6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead

(Old Testament | Isaiah61:1)
1THE Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

spirit prison - not a prison of iron bars, prison of the mind - is the place where ppl who have not heard the gospel in this life will be sent to learn it after they die.

(New Testament | John5:25)
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


Everyone - in this life, or in the next, will have the opportunity to hear, and live.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x_-TQivCx8

 

[jonman122]

I see where you're going here, I'm just not sure if I follow. Can you elaborate for me please?

There are no commandments saying rape is bad, but there are 4 at the beginning saying god is jealous and you have to believe in him. He then also tells you in his commandments that jealousy is bad. In Genesis he claims all is good, but then somehow things go from good to absolutely dreadful and he has to kill 2 million of his own children. Those people he kills include women and children of all ages. Does this sound like a god whos moral code is something you'd really want to adhere to? I know i didn't get my morals from the bible, and most certainly not from god, but i somehow still understand right from wrong. Is it possible that the bible isn't the source for our moral codes?

True scientific rigor is showing proof that it may in fact just be evolution itself, the need to survive as a species, that grows these morals. That until we are self aware, these morals are more instinctual but once you have the intellectual choice to do whatever you want, these morals have to be associated with a feeling of good or bad or else why would you ever feel the need to do good things?

I haven't seen one logical argument against this example:
why when 2 lions fight, the winner doesn't just eat the loser, he lets him limp away in to the desert to die alone and shamed, rather than using him as nourishment, which a lack of "morals" would suggest.

i'm rather tired too so i'm not even sure if i made any sense at all

 

[jonman122]

fyi, if you believe that god lives on a planet called "kulu" and had actual sexual relations with Mary on that planet before allowing her back to earth, than you can call yourself a mormon, or a part of the LDS movement.

 

[Kathryn]

Good questions, Hiawoofa. Many Christians have struggled with them in the course of their life of faith, as have others of other faiths.

You will find many people here who will be happy to discourage you from believing in the Christian faith, or any diety at all. You will also find many who will claim that all faiths should be respected, but who will show no respect for Christianity. And you will find a few Christians scattered among this forum's population.

As a Christian, one thing that I've found helpful over my lifetime is God's promise that if we seek wisdom, He WILL lead us to it. Whenever I've struggled with concepts or situations, I've found that when I pray earnestly for guidance, I receive it. Sometimes it seems like I find it in a very roundabout way, because God allows us free will and independent thought.

I encourage you to pray before delving into a topic of study. Pray for discernment and guidance. I believe that God heeds the sincere prayers of seekers.

 

[idea]

fyi, if you believe that god lives on a planet called "kulu" and had actual sexual relations with Mary on that planet before allowing her back to earth, than you can call yourself a mormon, or a part of the LDS movement.

???
we believe in the virgin birth dearest - I don't know what you have been reading?
if you don't believe me - here is the official church website:
LDS.org - Ensign Article - “I Am the Resurrection and the Life”
"we proclaim that Jesus of Nazareth, who lived on earth about twenty-five centuries after Gilgamesh, brought immortality to humankind. He, the literal Son of God, offspring of a virgin mother and the mighty Father-God Elohim, preached his wondrous gospel of love, was betrayed by one of his closest associates, was subjected to the cruel mockery of a farcical trial, and died on a cross between two thieves on Golgotha’s hill. His lifeless body was buried in a borrowed tomb, its entrance sealed by a great stone, and Roman soldiers were placed to guard the sepulchre. Yet when faithful women came that first Easter Sabbath morning to dress the body of their beloved Master with spices and ointments, they were greeted by an empty tomb and angels who spake these wondrous words, the most sublime in any language: “Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen” (Luke 24:5–6)."


As far as Kolob -
In an effort to make the Church look bizarre, many critics mock the idea of "God living on the planet Kolob." This is false as God does not live on Kolob. Kolob plays no real role in LDS doctrine or discourse. The only other mention comes from a 19th century hymn, which uses Kolob in its first line to describe the glorious life of those who return to God:[1]
There is no end to glory; There is no end to love; There is no end to being; There is no death above. Because LDS theology believes in a God with a physical body, it is not surprising that one might speak of God's location in physical space. Creedal Christian critics who believe in a God without "body, parts, or passions" exploit this difference in perspective to make LDS beliefs seem blasphemous or bizarre. But, to speak of God as having location is no more strange than to speak of Jesus' physical location in Bethlehem or Jerusalem during His mortal life.


for the future, before you go posting stuff you know nothing about... you might want to go here: http://en.fairmormon.org/Main_Page
type in your issue, and get an actual understanding?

 

[jonman122]

I thought this video was pretty cool when i saw it, figured i should share since im so tired i can't think. It might make more sense than me

[youtube]6OLPL5p0fMg[/youtube]
YouTube - Critical Thinking

 

[Breathe]

I've actually considered this many times. And it makes me sad that people are fighting each other over religious beliefs when it's quite possible we have the same exact God.

Glad to here you've considered it many times!

Fighting over whose god is better is a major problem with religious exclusionism, though. Sometimes people need to sit back and notice that they follow the same God, just in different ways - or at least that bickering gets us nowhere.

And I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. Horrible acts as in the wars in the Middle East that have been going on for centuries and just massive acts of violence that were influenced by someone's religion.

Yeah, those suck.



Super churches are an interesting, modern development. I prefer visiting the smaller churches (not too small though, I like about 300 people or so) myself. Churches such as Yoido Full Gospel Church are quite recent additions to the world. I don't think they will stay for too long, because they appear more business-like, and they are rather impersonal. For those looking at Christianity out of curiosity, I suppose they can be a bit less daunting because you're harder to spot as a new face in the crowd, but going to a church and knowing everyone there seems better than going to a church with ten thousand people and only knowing a handful.

Many of those pastors probably lose themselves in greed, because sadly it seems as though a bit of extra money can make people change quite quickly.

One of the things I've wondered is, what must those people who have never encountered Christianity think from religious channels? Seeing televangelists begging for your money and saying you will be blessed for donating even "a small sum like $1000", from those groups of churches where people seem to be passing out on the floor 'in the spirit', and then seeing people arguing for literal interpretations of Genesis. How many people must end up with the belief that you have to take the Bible word-for-word literally to be a Christian, seems kind of saddening.


Meh, I finished on a bit of downer.
To make it less of a downer, I shall finish on a good note.

Puppies are cute.

 

[jonman122]

and i'm also not going to bother arguing with people whos religions seem to change at the shift of the wind either. Jehovahs witnesses were adamant the world was going to end in 1914, and when it didnt happen they were kind of adamant in 1945, and when that didnt happen they were semi-adamant in 1975, and now they say "it could happen any time in the future."

What sect of LDS are you? do you even believe in Joseph Smith, who stood before Elohim himself apparently?

i don't even care. Critical Thinking woo

 

[idea]

I haven't seen one logical argument against this example:
why when 2 lions fight, the winner doesn't just eat the loser, he lets him limp away in to the desert to die alone and shamed, rather than using him as nourishment, which a lack of "morals" would suggest.

you might like to read through this:

Survival of the fittest? Anthropologist suggests the nicest prevail — not just the selfish | Newsroom | Washington University in St. Louis
Survival of the fittest? Anthropologist suggests the nicest prevail — not just the selfish

Are altruism and morality artificial outgrowths of culture, created by humans to maintain social order? Or is there, instead, a biological foundation to ethical behavior?
In other words, are we inherently good?

The prevailing view in popular and scientific literature is that humans and animals are genetically driven to compete for survival, thus making all social interaction inherently selfish. According to this line of reasoning, known as sociobiology, even seemingly unselfish acts of altruism merely represent a species' strategy to survive and preserve its genes.
But Robert W. Sussman, Ph.D., a professor of anthropology in Arts & Sciences at Washington University in St. Louis, argues that this is a narrow and simplistic view of evolutionary theory that fails to explain many aspects of sociality among mammals in general and primates in particular.
"The 'selfish gene' hypothesis is inadequate," he says.
Sussman is a consultant to the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) Program of Dialogue on Science, Ethics and Religion (DoSER), which brings together scholars from various disciplines — including anthropology, biology, psychology, genetics and ethics, among others — to explore the biological roots of human nature from a multidisciplinary perspective.

Altruism in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Examples of animal altruism

• Dogs often adopt orphaned cats, squirrels, ducks and even tigers.[6] (Why would a dog help it's enemy?)
• Dolphins support sick or injured animals, swimming under them for hours at a time and pushing them to the surface so they can breathe.[7] (not just other dolphins - not just species survival)
• Wolves and wild dogs bring meat back to members of the pack not present at the kill.[citation needed]
• Male baboons threaten predators and cover the rear as the troop retreats.[citation needed] (they sacrifice their life for the lives of others)
• Gibbons and chimpanzees with food will, in response to a gesture, share their food with others of the group.[citation needed] Chimpanzees will help humans and Conspecifics without any reward in return.[8]
• Bonobos have been observed aiding injured or handicapped bonobos.[9]
• Vampire bats commonly regurgitate blood to share with unlucky or sick roost mates that have been unable to find a meal, often forming a buddy system.[10][11]
• Raccoons inform conspecifics about feeding grounds by droppings left on commonly shared latrines. A similar information system has been observed to be used by common ravens.[12]
• In numerous bird species, a breeding pair receives support in raising its young from other "helper" birds, including help with the feeding of its fledglings.[13] Some will even go as far as protecting an unrelated bird's young from predators [14]
• Most mammal carnivores like wolves or dogs have a habit of not harming pack members below certain age, of opposite sex or in surrendering position (in case of some animals, the behavior exists within entire species rather than one pack).[citation needed]
• Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked.[15]
• Walruses have been seen adopting orphans who lost their parents to predators.[16]
• Some termites release a sticky secretion by fatally rupturing a gland near the skin in their neck. This autothysis defends against invading ants by creating a tar baby effect.[17] (they kill themselves to save others)
• Meerkats often have one standing guard to warn whilst the rest feed in case of predators attack.
• African buffalo will rescue a member of the herd captured by predators.

in short, it's not just "survival" going on. There is another force at play.

 

[jonman122]

I'm not here to convert anyone, I'm not asking him to pray, i'm not asking him to read all of the church doctrine for every different theology, I'm just asking that Jordan thinks for himself, and comes to whatever conclusion he wants to about god and what he wants to believe or not believe. It's entirely his choice.

because thats what i believe in, thought. Critical, logical thought.

 

[idea]

I thought this video was pretty cool when i saw it, figured i should share since im so tired i can't think. It might make more sense than me

[youtube]6OLPL5p0fMg[/youtube]
YouTube - Critical Thinking

Here's something for ya:
The Perry Model of Intellectual and Ethical Development


Stages of Cognitive DevelopmentTransitions in Cognitive Development

#1: Dualistic Thinking

• 
  [*]Students generally believe knowledge is certain and unambiguous: black/white, right/wrong

• Questions have immutable, objective answers

• 
  [*]Students generally believe authorities possess valuable wisdom that contains eternal truths

• Certainty yields to uncertainty and ambiguity

#2: Multiplicity

• 
  [*]Students come to believe that where uncertainty exists, knowledge and truth are essentially subjective and personal

Students come to recognize that mere opinion is insufficient because specific critieria help evaluate the usefulness and validity of knowledge claims:
• methodology • empirical evidence
• explanatory power • predictive power
• logical consistency

• positive vs. normative conclusions

#3: Contextual-Relativism

• 
  [*]Students come to believe that even where uncertainty exists, people must make choices about premises, frameworks, hypotheses, and theories to apply; policy conclusions are not self-evident

• 
  [*]Students may come to recognize that even in a world of uncertainty, they must make choices (whether about ideas, hypotheses, theories, or policies). These choices require methods of critical thinking.

#4: Context-Appropriate

Decisions

• 
  [*]Students may come to acknowledge that choices require analysis and values. Knowledge, theories, and methods are imperfect and uncertain, thus personal choices require acknowledging personal responsibility that follows from personal values.

notice that the highest stage of cognitive development - " Knowledge, theories, and methods are imperfect and uncertain, thus personal choices require acknowledging personal responsibility that follows from personal values."