I'm split between these roads.

[McBell]

There may be numerous types of animal feces, however I don't need read, study, learn, or talk about them to know that I don't want to eat any of them. Because the one trait they all have in common, is that they're feces.

Perhaps if your analogy was somehow resembling the OP....

It is not that the TS knows he does not want to eat any, it is that the TS is confused as to which one, if any, he wants to eat.

Thus your feces analogy fails.

 

[jonman122]

If you had a family member who had cancer, would you pray for the cancer to go away by an act of god, or pray the surgeons who cut it out or use chemotherapy to kill the cancer cells do their jobs well enough that the cancer goes away?

i didn't write a book in response to how unmerited your comments were, just 2 lines telling you they were unmerited. i'm sorry you can't see facts.

give me one situation where prayer has triumphed over the "get up and do it yourself rather than beg your sky daddy to do it for you" routine.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Perhaps if your analogy was somehow resembling the OP....

It is not that the TS knows he does not want to eat any, it is that the TS is confused as to which one, if any, he wants to eat.

Thus your feces analogy fails.

If I were addressing the OP, you would be correct. I wasn't, hence, your post fails.

 

[McBell]

If you had a family member who had cancer, would you pray for the cancer to go away by an act of god, or pray the surgeons who cut it out or use chemotherapy to kill the cancer cells do their jobs well enough that the cancer goes away?

Why is it an "or" situation for you?

i didn't write a book in response to how unmerited your comments were, just 2 lines telling you they were unmerited. i'm sorry you can't see facts.

Ah, so why then did jump up on your soapbox?

give me one situation where prayer has triumphed over the "get up and do it yourself rather than beg your sky daddy to do it for you" routine.

I never made any such claim.
Perhaps you are confusing me with someone who has?
Though, I cannot fathom out who, seeing that as far as I can tell, no one made any such claim in this thread.

 

[Autodidact]

Hello, My name is Jordan. I was once a faithful christian who loved the idea of God, of Heaven, and feared the thought of a Hell. But, then I thought, and thought, and thought. And I came to the conclusion that it was all just an IDEA. Now, I'm not here to argue about the existence of God, and Heaven, and Hell. I respect everybody's opinion, and I understand that we all have our own. I'm just lost.

As a young child, I was never forced to be a Christian, it wasn't shoved down my throat as I see it being done regularly to others. But I believed. If somebody asked if I believed, my automatic response was yes. It wasn't even a thought, just a... reflex if you will. But as I grew older, I started to realize the reason I would answer yes and continue to force myself to believe I was faithful was because honestly, I was scared. I was scared of reprimand. I was scared of where I'd end up if I didn't believe. Are most Christians this way, but just too afraid to admit it? I honestly don't know. I don't want the fear of the unknown to control my decisions.

I will admit, Christianity brings good morals to us. But to me, that's all it is. All religion is. Morals. It teaches us how to be a better person. But we obviously don't get it. Wars to prove our religion is right, and yours is wrong? Those don't seem like good morals to me. Not the kind we are taught anyway. Like I've read on another thread, if I like grapefruit, and you don't, am I going to force you to eat it and kill you if you don't? That's not right. =/ But that's what's happening. Why would God allow this to happen? Why? God's flooded the world before. Does he not have the power to stop these horrible acts? I just don't understand.

And all of those people in Asia and Africa who would laugh at the idea of our God or maybe haven't even heard of it, what will happen to them? With they be condemned to Hell? Will I? What will happen to the people who have never even been introduced to Christianity or any religion? What will happen to the Muslims who pray to Allah? What makes our God more real than theirs? I don't get this either.

If you can provide an answer to any of this, I would be grateful. Like I said, I want to believe, it just doesn't make sense to me. None of this. =/

Try this and tell me where it takes you. Ask yourself the following:

1. Does God exist?
2. Hmm... how could I go about figuring out whether God exists?

Don't start with your religious training or even your current belief. Just ask the question and try to figure out how to figure out an answer. I'm here to discuss where it takes you if you're interested, and then to share where it took me, also if you're interested, but only after you give it a shot yourself. Don't want to bias you.

 

[McBell]

If were addressing the OP, you would be correct. I wasn't, hence, your post fails.

The post you replied to was in direct reference to the OP.
Care to try again, or would you rather attempt another pointless jab at religion?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The post you replied to was in direct reference to the OP.
Care to try again, or would rather attempt another pointless jab at religion?

Right, and my post was in direct reference to the post I was actually responding to.

Care to try again, or would you rather just admit you were wrong, move on, and save some dignity?

 

[jonman122]

Of course you wouldn't.
But that does not mean that someone else wouldn't.
Nor does it mean that no one finds prayer to be useful.

but you said it yourself.. how is prayer useful if it has absolutely no practical relevence? how could someone find it to be useful? claiming prayer has any practical relevence at all is implying that it has at some point been beneficial in such a way that is at least equal to getting up and doing whatever you are praying for.

 

[McBell]

but you said it yourself.. how is prayer useful if it has absolutely no practical relevence?

You are the one claiming an absolute, not me.

how could someone find it to be useful?

I do not pretend to know the answer.
Nor do I pretend to presume that my not knowing the answer means there is not one.

However, the fact remains that there are millions of people who do find it useful.
Regardless of what you, I, or anyone else thinks.

claiming prayer has any practical relevence at all is implying that it has at some point been beneficial in such a way that is at least equal to getting up and doing whatever you are praying for.

I never made any such claim and as far as I can tell, neither has anyone else in this thread.
Other than you, that is.

 

[jonman122]

You are the one claiming an absolute, not me.


I do not pretend to know the answer.
Nor do I pretend to presume that my not knowing the answer means there is not one.

However, the fact remains that there are millions of people who do find it useful.
Regardless of what you, I, or anyone else thinks.


I never made any such claim and as far as I can tell, neither has anyone else in this thread.
Other than you, that is.

you claimed prayer had practical relevence when you claimed people find it useful, and i don't see where you're going with this because you are being self defeating.

 

[McBell]

you claimed prayer had practical relevence when you claimed people find it useful, and i don't see where you're going with this because you are being self defeating.

No, I merely stated the fact that there are people who find prayer useful.
Any and all assumptions you made from there are completely your own doing.

 

[jonman122]

No, I merely stated the fact that there are people who find prayer useful.
Any and all assumptions you made from there are completely your own doing.

the problem you seem to not be undestanding is when you make an assertion like "some people find prayer is useful" you're not only making that statement, but you have the burden of proof to verify your claims and you have still not yet verified that prayer has any practical relevence.

 

[McBell]

the problem you seem to not be undestanding is when you make an assertion like "some people find prayer is useful" you're not only making that statement, but you have the burden of proof to verify your claims and you have still not yet verified that prayer has any practical relevence.

What you fail to understand is that I said some people find prayer useful.
So if you want proof, just go into any church on Sunday morning and you will find people who find prayer useful.

Now since I never once claimed that prayer is useful, I do not have to prove that prayer is useful.

 

[Badran]

the problem you seem to not be undestanding is when you make an assertion like "some people find prayer is useful" you're not only making that statement, but you have the burden of proof to verify your claims and you have still not yet verified that prayer has any practical relevence.

Not at all.

He is stating a fact, that some people find prayer useful, without saying himself wether or not it is. So he has nothing to prove, because the statement he made is a fact.

 

[Kathryn]

I find prayer very useful.

There - an example of a theist who finds prayer useful. Not sure whether or not I can prove that it's useful to anyone else - but I don't have to. I know that it's useful to me, and that I will continue to practice prayer in my life. In fact, I prayed today and I will pray about the same situation tonight and tomorrow - and for longer if I need to.

 

[Hiawoofa]

In my personal opinion, yes, prayer can be useful, but not in a physical way. It's more the spiritual idea that helps you because you feel someone is watching you from up above and helping you succeed. At-least that's what I thought when I used to pray. And I doubt everyone is the same, but yes, people do find prayer useful, weather it truly is though is completely up to the person doing the praying.

And getting back on subject, can anyone else help me figure out which nut or "feces" as posted earlier (.... =/) I want to, "eat?" Can anyone clarify how I'm supposed to figure this out? I just have so many doubts about religion, but I just want it to be true. I just don't know what to believe. It's all so confusing. =/

 

[jonman122]

find which one has your favourite idea of god in it, and study it, see what you think about it, and get in to it! If your going to stick theist, you might as well stick it to something you end up liking and not something where you end up being committed to getting rid of half of your family because they don't share the same beliefs.

 

[Hiawoofa]

I'm not even sure if I want to stay Theist. I don't want to wast my life hoping for something that's illogical. =/ I just don't know anymore.

 

[jonman122]

I'm not even sure if I want to stay Theist. I don't want to wast my life hoping for something that's illogical. =/ I just don't know anymore.

Well thats why i dont believe in a God or any Gods, because the idea of drawing one out of 8000 from a hat and hoping that i get the right one is not very appealing to me, and the only thing that i see that actually tries its hardest to get the truth is science. Some claims from science might be a little farfetched, but if they end up being wrong they don't still try to defend it, once all of the evidence points towards something being wrong, they discard it and try some different things. Theories that are proven true are even apt to change, and when someone finds evidence that proves that something that was once thought true is only mostly true and they have new things to add, they add them, they don't tell you you're a heretic and a blasphemer and throw you out.

Science just seems preferable to me, in that regard. But you can be a theist and trust science as well, it all depends.

 

[Kathryn]

Many theists (like myself) appreciate the truths of science as well as the truths of their religion. The two don't have to be at odds.

There are things we don't understand about science, and scientific "facts" that once were thought to be true, but then disproved, or theories that are disgarded or developed further. Does this mean that we lose confidence in science? I don't think so - I think that this simply re iterates the fact that man's knowledge is always going to be limited by his humanity - but that he is also always learning and growing.

There's room for science and religious faith in every person's life - the question is, will they choose to embrace both?