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Imams banned from charity event

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
I am sorry to hear that you left Islam. Perhaps you saw some horrible acts from some Muslims or the wrong interpretation of some verses of the Book that made you arrive at this conclusion. Everyone's experience is different and I think sharing my own story might help you see another side of the picture. I accepted Islam about five years ago after much struggle and confusion in my life. I will be honest with you. Being a woman and a feminist, I used to absolutely hate this religion because I thought it only commanded its followers to stone women and beat them up. I thought it was a brutal and barbaric religion that had no application in today's world. However, by the guidance and mercy of my Creator I met some learned Muslim men and women who introduced me to the truth. I found peace after becoming a Muslim. Like I said, everyone has a different story so I can't compare yours to mine. However, I heard a statement a while ago that made perfect sense and I thought I should share it here: "Islam is NOT what you see SOME Muslims do. Islam IS what ALL Muslims are supposed to do." Peace to you.
...and that logic can be applied to pretty much any religious system that is doctrinal, dogmatic, credal, and centralized---or rather monopolized---by religious understandings derived from one specific scripture. For example:

"Christianity is NOT what you see SOME Christians do. Christianity IS what ALL Christians are supposed to do."
And by default, that would disqualify the ideal that the religion is perfect whereas the practitioners are not, since the religion, itself, is man-derived---inherently making it prone to bearing inconsistencies born from human error.
 
What do we hate? Something that we are "told to hate" or that which we decide to hate using our "own" logic and intelligence and not for the purpose of promoting someone else's agenda.

You make a very good point. We are aware that 'interests' that operate in our world often incite our fear and anger ... for occulted reasons.

I am sorry to hear that you left Islam.
The interesting fact here, if you accept Peter Berger's analysis, above, is that Islam and also Pentecostalism are exploding on a world-level. So, if one leaves you have no reason to feel dismay. A thousand have been added.

There is a Pentecostal church up the street from my house. I wish that they could sing in key! But when I pass by I see that it is a complete 'gestalt' experience of religion, an immersion. Harold Bloom writes about Pentecostalism in his book The American Religion. BTW Bloom's book is useful, along with Robert Bellah, to understand the intense and inseparable religiosity of Americans and American culture.

Traditional Pentecostal worship has been described as a "gestalt made up of prayer, singing, sermon, the operation of the gifts of the Spirit, altar intercession, offering, announcements, testimonies, musical specials, Scripture reading, and occasionally the Lord's supper".[77] Russell P. Spittler identified five values that govern Pentecostal spirituality.[78] The first was individual experience, which emphasizes the Holy Spirit's personal work in the life of the believer. Second was orality, a feature that might explain Pentecostalism's success in evangelizing nonliterate cultures. The third was spontaneity; members of Pentecostal congregations are expected to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, sometimes resulting in unpredictable services. The fourth value governing Pentecostal spirituality was "otherworldliness" or asceticism, which was partly informed by Pentecostal eschatology. The final and fifth value was a commitment to biblical authority, and many of the distinctive practices of Pentecostals are derived from a literal reading of scripture.[78]
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Like I said, everyone has a different story so I can't compare yours to mine. However, I heard a statement a while ago that made perfect sense and I thought I should share it here: "Islam is NOT what you see SOME Muslims do. Islam IS what ALL Muslims are supposed to do." Peace to you.


STOP THE PRESSES! CONTACT REZA ASLAN IMMEDIATELY. His defense of Islam rests on the opposite claim:

“It is a fallacy to believe that people of faith derive their values primarily from their Scriptures. The opposite is true. People of faith insert their values into their scriptures, reading them through the lens of their own cultural, ethnic, nationalistic and even political perspectives. . . . After all, scripture is meaningless without interpretation. The abiding nature of scripture rests not so much in its truth claims as it does in its malleability, its ability to be molded and shaped into whatever form a worshiper requires. . . If you are a violent misogynist, you will find plenty in your scriptures to justify your beliefs. If you are a peaceful, democratic feminist, you will also find justification in the scriptures for your point of view.”

So which is it? This is the problem with the defenders of the Abrahamic religions: In all but the most liberal traditions within them, the defense is usually that "true Christianity" or "true Islam" does not suffer from the character defects of the practitioners. But here you are saying the Quran has objective content, contra Aslan, that can be evaluated for its morality and truth claims.

So what do we make of this? On the one hand, Muslims and Christians claim that there is an objective, discernable meaning within the text. That meaning can therefore be subject to criticism, and the religion critiqued for what it claims, not simply for the idiosyncratic beliefs or practices of individual believers. In fact, we have people raised as Muslims telling us that, while they disagree with ISIS, the way ISIS interprets the Quran is plausible and defensible. Now, it is true that Fathima Imra Nazeer is no longer a Muslim, but she was raised in a devout household and can make a strong case for the Quranic legitimacy Islamist attacks on, for example, Charlie Hebdo:

Second, even though the Quran doesn't explicitly call for the murder of blasphemers, the Quran encourages the killing of "those who spread mischief" against Allah and Muhammed. With the vast majority of Muslims believing the Quran to be God's literal word to man, it is easy to see how an isolated Islamist in a western capital can interpret mischief makers to be those like the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists and use such verses as justification to kill. Of course most Muslims simply read the Quran in Arabic (a language most non Arab Muslims don't understand) and either re-interpret or turn a blind eye to these Quranic injunctions that don't sit well with their own usually better sense of morality, but the minority who take these verses seriously do plenty of harm.

The bottom line is this: While Christians, Muslims and Orthodox Jews take offense at the suggestion that their scriptures are not the divinely inspired, authored Word of God, the simple fact is that there is no evidence that these texts are divinely inspired, and overwhelming evidence that they are brutally violent, misogynist and homophobic creations of very flawed human beings who had the misfortune of living at a brutal time and place in human history. The values of liberal democracy (or even basic human decency) cannot be reconciled with the texts themselves, and we cannot accept any faith in the infallibility of these texts as socially good or even neutral. Moreover, we can only tolerate them to the extent that they do not pose a threat to our way of life. The instant that they begin to pose a threat to us, they have to be rejected, and tolerance must yield to the extent it is necessary to combat these very dangerous ideologies.
 

Job

New Member
I am sorry to hear that you left Islam.

No need to feel sorry,its not as if I am permanently ill or something.

Perhaps you saw some horrible acts from some Muslims or the wrong interpretation of some verses of the Book that made you arrive at this conclusion.

Just doesnt make sense. Thats it. To many flaws in it. And I know the preachers that were invited cuz I have been a practicing Muslim for quite some years reading about Islamic history, Quran explanations, jurisprudence, the different schools of law etc etc. But actually the thing is that the more I came to the point that it didnt make sense any more the more I am thinking that real belief in one of the three monotheistic faiths is actually not a matter of choice. You either (can) believe it or not. In my case I could lie but the truth is that I just cant believe fundamental aspects of Islam (or any other of the three monotheistic) religions to be true. One such thing is reconciling the belief in a all-just and all-merciful God that sends people to hell for eternally for the simple fact of not believing in Him....or the fact that sending down a book (mushaf) with words of more than 100 pages is not really the best way to give a message to mankind that they should abide by throughout 14 or 20 centuries. It is common knowledge that a 100-page book will be highly differed on concerning the meanings of the words used.... and the problem here is that especially the monotheistic religions claim to have the "one and only absolute truth".

Everyone's experience is different and I think sharing my own story might help you see another side of the picture. I accepted Islam about five years ago after much struggle and confusion in my life. I will be honest with you. Being a woman and a feminist, I used to absolutely hate this religion because I thought it only commanded its followers to stone women and beat them up. I thought it was a brutal and barbaric religion that had no application in today's world. However, by the guidance and mercy of my Creator I met some learned Muslim men and women who introduced me to the truth. I found peace after becoming a Muslim. Like I said, everyone has a different story so I can't compare yours to mine. However, I heard a statement a while ago that made perfect sense and I thought I should share it here: "Islam is NOT what you see SOME Muslims do. Islam IS what ALL Muslims are supposed to do." Peace to you.

Peace to you. I dont hate Islam, it has beautiful aspects in it. Although some things are problematic if you want to follow it literally and act upon in the 21st century.
I just cant believe it cuz it doesnt make sense to me just as Christianity does.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
This is a seriously ugly opinion.
I can only hope you are being trollish and facetious.

Tom

I agree. But the opinion is no uglier than execution for apostasy; in fact, it is the anti-Muslim equivalent of the way that ex-Muslims are treated in countries that punish apostasy with death.
 

Haley

New Member
...and that logic can be applied to pretty much any religious system that is doctrinal, dogmatic, credal, and centralized---or rather monopolized---by religious understandings derived from one specific scripture. For example:

"Christianity is NOT what you see SOME Christians do. Christianity IS what ALL Christians are supposed to do."
And by default, that would disqualify the ideal that the religion is perfect whereas the practitioners are not, since the religion, itself, is man-derived---inherently making it prone to bearing inconsistencies born from human error.

You are right. This logic can be applied to any religion. But for me the most important characteristic in any religion is that it should make sense. When I was growing up, I could never comprehend or agree with the very idea of salvation in Christianity. For example, why did the all mighty, all powerful God offer the blood of his own son to save the humanity? Couldn't He just forgive our sins? To whom did He make the sacrifice? To Himself? And the only answer I would get to these questions would be "Religion doesn't have to make sense. You just have to accept it!"
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
You are right. This logic can be applied to any religion. But for me the most important characteristic in any religion is that it should make sense. When I was growing up, I could never comprehend or agree with the very idea of salvation in Christianity. For example, why did the all mighty, all powerful God offer the blood of his own son to save the humanity? Couldn't He just forgive our sins? To whom did He make the sacrifice? To Himself? And the only answer I would get to these questions would be "Religion doesn't have to make sense. You just have to accept it!"
Thank you for your reply. I can somewhat relate to what you have stated because I have encountered numerous lay-Muslims here in the States that have asked similar questions and have, unfortunately, received the same type of answer: that one must accept their religion the way it is; that it doesn't need to make sense since it is already perfect; that there must be a certain sense of blind obedience without inquiring in a way that may be deemed "warlike". And many of them just don't know how to proceed onwards, and thus remain Muslim socio-culturally than theologically. Unfortunately, this is a theme that is to be found in both Christian and Muslim socio-religious communities.
 
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The bottom line is this: While Christians, Muslims and Orthodox Jews take offense at the suggestion that their scriptures are not the divinely inspired, authored Word of God, the simple fact is that there is no evidence that these texts are divinely inspired, and overwhelming evidence that they are brutally violent, misogynist and homophobic creations of very flawed human beings who had the misfortune of living at a brutal time and place in human history. The values of liberal democracy (or even basic human decency) cannot be reconciled with the texts themselves, and we cannot accept any faith in the infallibility of these texts as socially good or even neutral. Moreover, we can only tolerate them to the extent that they do not pose a threat to our way of life. The instant that they begin to pose a threat to us, they have to be rejected, and tolerance must yield to the extent it is necessary to combat these very dangerous ideologies.
It seems to me that, with certain caveats, and with some exceptions, that the line your pursue here is sound in numerous ways. The core for me would be in "we cannot accept any faith in the infallibility of these texts as socially good or even neutral". And this means that we agree that a certain sort of person has to be created, inculcated. For really what you are saying is that you define yourself and your value-set within a very specific movement, in a very specific period of time, within Western ideation. This points again to the Seventeenth century and to a new way of seeing, and a new way of being, and acting, and functioning in relation to authority. It seems important to point this out. It was largely only at that moment in time, and the evolution of thought, that an anti-establishmentarian position was formulated.

(However it is also true that, long before the seventeenth century, some very good examples of the 'liberal democracy' you refer to did come into existence, in the Greek world, and did survive for some while. Religious notions and mythic notions functioned then, but differently. But I don't think there are many other and perhaps no other examples that we can refer to and emulate, historically.)

I find that I agree in essence to your other statements. I do agree that extremism of the sort you refer to has to be combatted and 'tolerance must yield to the extent it is necessary to combat these very dangerous ideologies', but I do think there are some problems here. There is no effective way, no coherent way perhaps I should say, to make the definition that you have made (that a society that thinks along the lines that you think is the better one), except by becoming itself the dominant and deciding authority. Now, that 'case' as it were may be the more cogent case. Perhaps after many years of education a given person will accept that it is best. But there are all sorts of different arguments against Western liberalism, and there are arguments for more authoritarian structures. One of the 'faults' of so-called liberalism is that it has a tendency to keep liberalizing, to keep extending so-called freedoms, to a point that (they say) necessary boundaries are demolished.

I also tend to think that you take a rather classical anti-scriptural position, or ant-revealed-religious-writings position which is, while not completely inaccurate---misogyny and certainly homophobia and other intolerances are indeed expressed in, say, the Bible---I think that there are very clear and really quite stunning examples of an entirely different spirit, say for example in Isaiah. Also, and this is only my view, I tend to see Jewish exegesis of the religious texts as being in many ways thoroughly excellent, and that out of the exegesis that is performed, a whole and large and very commendable value-set arose. I don't know much about Islam, overall (except that some Christians have called it 'frozen Judaism') but I assume that there are some fine exegetic schools in that world. I have no doubt that such exegetic schools exist in the Christian world and this leads me to another point: Our Western world is totally infused with Christian and Jewish moral and ethical ideals, so much so that it is not (in my view) possible to think of somehow excising the religious/inspirational element. Our whole valuation-system is wrapped up in it.

I also tend to think that 'homophobia', or a position as-against homosexuality, can be defended as needed or necessary. But in hypermodern liberalism, or liberalism carried too far, or to its extremes, it becomes politically incorrect even to think such a thought. I do not mean to say that I take a position against homosexuals. I mean that the position is not without some merits, in some ways.

I also think 'misogyny' is a troublesome and obviously hot-button term. You seem to use it without much reflection and with a 'certainty' that your readership gets what you mean, and also agrees. But there are all manner of arguments by so-called 'traditional women' toward definitions of woman, and toward a role for women, that would be termed misogynistic reflexively. But in reality there is a whole area of debate as to how women, and of course how men, shall be defined. It is not at all clear and it is not at all decided.
 
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CMike

Well-Known Member
I do not think people should be killed for converting to Islam or be killed for leaving Islam. However, Islamic law recognizes death for the latter. So if you support executions for apostasy, you have no real basis to oppose executions for conversion to Islam.
So you are saying it's okay to execute someone for converting from Islam?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
So you are saying it's okay to execute someone for converting from Islam?
No, he is pointing out the hypocrisy of advocating capital punishment for some beliefs and insisting on freedom of belief for others.
It is a common form of hypocrisy among Muslims.

Tom

No, hes
 
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gsa

Well-Known Member
An interesting post. A few points in response.

It seems to me that, with certain caveats, and with some exceptions, that the line your pursue here is sound in numerous ways. The core for me would be in "we cannot accept any faith in the infallibility of these texts as socially good or even neutral". And this means that we agree that a certain sort of person has to be created, inculcated. For really what you are saying is that you define yourself and your value-set within a very specific movement, in a very specific period of time, within Western ideation. This points again to the Seventeenth century and to a new way of seeing, and a new way of being, and acting, and functioning in relation to authority. It seems important to point this out. It was largely only at that moment in time, and the evolution of thought, that an anti-establishmentarian position was formulated.

(However it is also true that, long before the seventeenth century, some very good examples of the 'liberal democracy' you refer to did come into existence, in the Greek world, and did survive for some while. Religious notions and mythic notions functioned then, but differently. But I don't think there are many other and perhaps no other examples that we can refer to and emulate, historically.)

I think that these trends have appeared at various points. I make no claim to Western exceptionalism per se, except insofar as we are discussing certain fundamental values that promote humanism, freedom and human flourishing. There are of course, ideologies that are incompatible with that: Fascism, totalitarianism, theocracy and monarchy come to mind.

The key, however, is that while liberal democracy has a small minimal core, it is a core, even if it evolves over time like anything else that is subject to human trial and error. We can disagree on a lot: taxes, the appropriate level of economic inequality, the size of government and other banal policy disputes. We cannot disagree on whether or not it is acceptable to kill apostates and homosexuals or own women. Those disagreements are over.

I find that I agree in essence to your other statements. I do agree that extremism of the sort you refer to has to be combatted and 'tolerance must yield to the extent it is necessary to combat these very dangerous ideologies', but I do think there are some problems here. There is no effective way, no coherent way perhaps I should say, to make the definition that you have made (that a society that thinks along the lines that you think is the better one), except by becoming itself the dominant and deciding authority. Now, that 'case' as it were may be the more cogent case. Perhaps after many years of education a given person will accept that it is best. But there are all sorts of different arguments against Western liberalism, and there are arguments for more authoritarian structures. One of the 'faults' of so-called liberalism is that it has a tendency to keep liberalizing, to keep extending so-called freedoms, to a point that (they say) necessary boundaries are demolished.

There are different critiques of liberalism. I think that the strongest critique comes from the socialists, and the modern social democracies are examples of how their critiques have been incorporated. But the theocratic critique is not new, it is old, and it is stale. In the case of Islamism, it is also as culturally alien as it is politically alien.

I also tend to think that you take a rather classical anti-scriptural position, or ant-revealed-religious-writings position which is, while not completely inaccurate---misogyny and certainly homophobia and other intolerances are indeed expressed in, say, the Bible---I think that there are very clear and really quite stunning examples of an entirely different spirit, say for example in Isaiah. Also, and this is only my view, I tend to see Jewish exegesis of the religious texts as being in many ways thoroughly excellent, and that out of the exegesis that is performed, a whole and large and very commendable value-set arose. I don't know much about Islam, overall (except that some Christians have called it 'frozen Judaism') but I assume that there are some fine exegetic schools in that world. I have no doubt that such exegetic schools exist in the Christian world and this leads me to another point: Our Western world is totally infused with Christian and Jewish moral and ethical ideals, so much so that it is not (in my view) possible to think of somehow excising the religious/inspirational element. Our whole valuation-system is wrapped up in it.

I disagree. The Christian and Jewish liberal traditions are repudiations of the basic doctrines found within those religions. They only liberalized as they were forced to accommodate secularism. Yes, you can find some nice things in Isaiah. It is part of a library, after all. Ecclesiastes and Job are some fine literature as well. But as Sam Harris has pointed out, you can improve the ethics of the Hebrew scriptures dramatically by simply removing Leviticus and Deuteronomy from the canon.

What is the unique Christian or Jewish contribution to Western culture? Nothing from their religions. Until secular governments forced the issue of Jewish emancipation, there was no way that anyone could speak of a Jewish contribution to Europe. Really, it is only in America that you hear that language with any frequency, because this is the first country that truly welcomed Jews.

Don’t get me wrong: Jewish liberalism and humanism has made stellar contributions to European and American societies (I think the Christian contribution is decidedly less worthy of praise). But what does this have to do with the religion? Next to nothing, except perhaps giving them the sensibility that comes with being an unfairly maligned minority. And to be blunt, secular and liberal Jews made the most stunning contributions. Just as secularized Christians did.

I also tend to think that 'homophobia', or a position as-against homosexuality, can be defended as needed or necessary. But in hypermodern liberalism, or liberalism carried too far, or to its extremes, it becomes politically incorrect even to think such a thought. I do not mean to say that I take a position against homosexuals. I mean that the position is not without some merits, in some ways.

If a secular case can be made, I am all ears. By and large, however, we see that it is a relic of Christian (and I suppose Jewish) prejudice, nothing more. In any event, even if I accepted this culturally conservative criticism, there is a difference between, say, a disagreement over relationship recognition and enforcement of sodomy laws that mandate capital punishment. That is not hyperliberalism, that is just liberalism. And early liberals privately expressed the same sentiments.

I also think 'misogyny' is a troublesome and obviously hot-button term. You seem to use it without much reflection and with a 'certainty' that your readership gets what you mean, and also agrees. But there are all manner of arguments by so-called 'traditional women' toward definitions of woman, and toward a role for women, that would be termed misogynistic reflexively. But in reality there is a whole area of debate as to how women, and of course how men, shall be defined. It is not at all clear and it is not at all decided.

We have decided that women have a legal and social existence independent of their husbands, fathers and other male relatives. That alone is sufficient to distinguish our value system from the Abrahamic one.
 
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Hello there. I have selected a few parts and submit this to you with the hope of inspiring interesting conversation.

...certain fundamental values that promote humanism, freedom and human flourishing
It is possible that I have a mistaken understanding---I more or less take that as a given and as inevitable! (because knowledge is too vast, and too subjective, and too flexible, and too uncertain)---but the words you use: humanism, freedom, and even human flourishing, seem totally linked to 'European categories'. If this is true, then the language you use and the definitions ensconced in them, are expressions of those European categories. It seems important to note this. To get clear about the origin and the development of European ideation and its expression is (in my understanding) to understand and gain familiarity with the philosophical and religious underpinnings of those ideas. In my view these are so thoroughly interwoven that there is quite literally no way to winnow them out. They are inseparably connected.

So, to speak in this language: humanism, freedom, flourishing, is to speak a specific language that has arisen in a specific context, and from a specific ideology. Well, that is of course my view and my understanding. Perhaps I can cite an example or two to illustrate. I have made some efforts to understand the culture and society and the existential-religious speculations and practices of the so-called Hindus. To put it in a nutshell, for the sake of space, I don't think that the notion of 'freedom' would have had any relevance or value as an ideal in those those successive cultures that came to build up the Vedic texts. In fact, it seems to me that quite the opposite was the case, overall. One is assigned a role and one is categorically unfree in the sense that you mean. The freedom you speak of is a radically new and different concept. It is also a very questionable concept. Meaning, many questions can be put to it, it can be interrogated. Without launching into another paragraph I think that the word 'humanism' is also completely laden with nearly totally Western ideals and definitions. In other contexts (cultural, historical) the notion of humanism does not exist. In any case I have not come across it.

There are of course, ideologies that are incompatible with that: Fascism, totalitarianism, theocracy and monarchy come to mind.
There is a problem here, too. The word 'fascism' is linked to a specific---and a very late---event in European history and so it is one of those troublesome hot-button words, and problematic for that reason. But I will move rather quickly to my point: It is likely that any historical society and cultural organization that we could name, be it Incan or Aztec society in the Americas, or the Persian cultures, or the Chinese cultural and governmental organizations, as well as Medieval Europe, or the cultures of the Near East including Judea, would be termed fascistic, theocratic and monarchical, homophobic and misogynistic, and antithetical to 'freedom', to 'humanism' and to 'human flourishing'. If what I am saying is true, and if I am right to locate these terms within European categories, then perhaps we could say, accurately, that what we moderns do, what comes naturally to us, is a mental act of revisionism where we 'judge' historical cultures from our present---and modern---perspective. As you will have guessed I find this very curious and also somewhat 'suspect' (placed in quotes to soften it somewhat).

What we seem to do is to function and operate from our ideological certainty (and it is ideological through-and-through) and to assert it, or insert it, or perhaps to 'wield' it and sometimes 'inflict' it ... on other cultures over which we stand as judges. And then also back in time in a reverse-engineering manoeuvre which I think must be examined. It is essentially an ideological praxis.

The key, however, is that while liberal democracy has a small minimal core
I don't (honestly) wish to bring up too much and so much so that it cannot be discussed, however I think it needs to be said: Our societies seem to be democracies, in rather remote senses, but are not comparable to the Greek democracy of the Greek polis. Democracy, as Noam Chomsky has said, likely only exists in a few Swiss cantons (!) We live in radically weird pseudo-democracies, understructured and perhaps determined by vast and interconnected mercantile interests, which hold so much sway in the so-called public domain that it is difficult to say if any single person is really 'free' in the sense that you mean ... I could go on here. It is highly questionable if any single individual out of the 'free' majority, has or employs their 'freedom' in ways that, philosophically and idealistically, we would say is 'good use of human freedom'. The freedom that you are speaking of could rather easily be flipped, conceptually, and made to signify license, and the word 'license' could then be inflected with various negative modifiers.
_________________________

That 'the Christian and Jewish liberal traditions are repudiations of the basic doctrines found within those religions', and the topics of Homosexuality and Misogyny (so-called) and the 'definition of woman' are topics I refrained from commenting on, for time-constraints. It may be possible to get to them at another time.

And a PS:

You used the term 'secular Christian'. Isn't this a contradiction in terms? I certainly do know what you mean though. You mean people who may, previously, have been members of a more strict and traditional religious-social setting but who now have become (more) integrated with general society.

It has always seemed to me to be true that when the classical shtetl Jew left the shtetl and 'assimilated' (in whatever degree), that the *real* Jewish contribution began. There are many modern intellectual figures we could name who illustrate this shift. Freud, Marx, Einstein, etc.

Still, I do not think that the liminal area can be determined to be non-religious. If one follows some of Peter Berger's ideas what we moderns do is to divide our consciousness: we have a secular self or person for secular purposes. But we have a religious self and person for religious purposes. We divide ourselves in strange ways ... to keep hold (I suppose) of the connection to the religious content ... or as a metaphysical manoeuvre to hold to the divine.
 
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You do realize that this is the point I was trying to make when I started this thread? There‘s so much hatred and it's only getting worse. You're attacking all Muslims and you're judging them. Their mistrust against the western world grows and the divide between us will only radicalize more people. It's a circle and I feel like we keep spiralling further down.

Have you studied the history of Islam? ISIS is the Rashidun caliphate, basically. This Karen Armstrong version of Islam is make believe. North Africa, the Mideast, Egypt, Persian, North Arabia, and Afghanistan were Christian until they came slaughtering out of Arabia. Do you know where the city of Ephesus went? The Muslims absolutely destroyed it. And don't come back with colonialism or the Crusades. The Crusades were an attempt (misguided, I believe) by Christians to free the 1/2 of the world's Christians who were living under Muslim domination. The Arabs never had it so good as they did during their brief time under European oversight.
 

Nerissa

Wanderer
Have you studied the history of Islam? ISIS is the Rashidun caliphate, basically. This Karen Armstrong version of Islam is make believe. North Africa, the Mideast, Egypt, Persian, North Arabia, and Afghanistan were Christian until they came slaughtering out of Arabia. Do you know where the city of Ephesus went? The Muslims absolutely destroyed it. And don't come back with colonialism or the Crusades. The Crusades were an attempt (misguided, I believe) by Christians to free the 1/2 of the world's Christians who were living under Muslim domination. The Arabs never had it so good as they did during their brief time under European oversight.

I really don't want to get into an argument about who were the biggest jerks in history. I'm sure say the Arab conquerors weren't very pleasant people to be around with, but neither were the crusaders. But honestly, that discussion is pointless. I'm talking about people trying to live in this world today. Is trying to blow each other to pieces really the only solution we can find?
 

Athosxc

Member
From what you described in your post, it sounded like only three of the imams were denied access, and they were "controversial" which is a nice way of saying that they teach and preach idiologies that are potentially dangerous. Sounds like a good precautionary measure. The difficult part of dealing with is lslam versus other religions is that they are by nature different. Someone above asked how it would be treated if Jews were denied access. The difference in the two is that there is no reason to ban the Jews. The Jews are not out in the world touting hatred for certain nationalities and threatening to kill them wherever they are found. Jews are not out forming terrorist groups in the name of Judaism. To deny access to the Jews without cause would be be correctly seen as wrong. But Islamic groups, and Islamic teachers ARE in fact calling for the death of the Jews in Israel. Islamic followers DO form hate groups specifically trained to kill anyone who disagrees with Islam. They are not ok with your disagreement, they call for conversion or death. The tax on an unbeliever is a temporary stop-gap, and is not always adhered to anyway. The "controversial" imams mentioned above may not be at a rally for the death of the Jews, but they will not discriminate on venue to take the chance to spread their controversial message. Islam according to the Koran is not a religion of peace. While the passages that speak of peace are the ones quoted all the time, there is a rule in Islam that requires that a new teaching eradicates an older opposite teaching. The most recent teachings from the Koran teach death to the Jews and Christians, and death to anyone who will not convert. They teach that lying to the rest of the world in order to gain influence is acceptable as long as it is done in the service of the Koran and spread of Islam. This is because Mohammed had tried to recruit these groups, and was rejected. He did not handle the rejection well. The radical muslims are the ones who live most closely according to the way of life advocated by the Koran. Peaceful muslims are preferable, but they are technically not good muslims. They are weak in their faith according to the Koran, and should be punished. That is not my opinion, but that is the opinion of the Koran's teachings. This is what makes it difficult to deal with Islam today. Add to that the fact that while peaceful muslims try to distance themselves from the radical violence, the muslim community as a whole will not come out and decry the acts of the radicals, and you create an extremely controversial situation anytime you deal with Islam.
 

Haley

New Member
Have you studied the history of Islam? ISIS is the Rashidun caliphate, basically. This Karen Armstrong version of Islam is make believe. North Africa, the Mideast, Egypt, Persian, North Arabia, and Afghanistan were Christian until they came slaughtering out of Arabia. Do you know where the city of Ephesus went? The Muslims absolutely destroyed it. And don't come back with colonialism or the Crusades. The Crusades were an attempt (misguided, I believe) by Christians to free the 1/2 of the world's Christians who were living under Muslim domination. The Arabs never had it so good as they did during their brief time under European oversight.

FYI Persia and Afghanistan were not Christians. They were Zoroastrians. The Mideast was mostly pagan.The Muslims did not occupy these lands. They liberated the weak and the slaves from the oppression of tyrants. Those early Muslims did not fight for land or wealth. They gave up their lives only to help other human beings. Instead of accusing others based on your assumptions why don't you read the history? Think about the Quranic verse that was revealed in this regard: "And what is wrong with you that you do not engage in combat for the sake of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help." 4:75
 

Shad

Veteran Member
FYI Persia and Afghanistan were not Christians. They were Zoroastrians. The Mideast was mostly pagan.The Muslims did not occupy these lands. They liberated the weak and the slaves from the oppression of tyrants. Those early Muslims did not fight for land or wealth. They gave up their lives only to help other human beings. Instead of accusing others based on your assumptions why don't you read the history? Think about the Quranic verse that was revealed in this regard: "And what is wrong with you that you do not engage in combat for the sake of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help." 4:75

In both nations(empires) the hereditary social system, secular power base, was replaced by an Islamic one. Social advance for non-Muslim was by merit alone. The system just changed hands, prejudices shifted focus but society roughly remained the same. Colonization followed by the establishment of garrison cities. The major change was the unification of the Fertile Crescent after centuries of being the conflict zone between empires. Perhaps you see read the history of others and compare the accounts. It is not as black and white as you think it is. Beside this "liberation" movement collapsed in civil war within a century for exactly the reason in my opening sentence.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
FYI Persia and Afghanistan were not Christians. They were Zoroastrians. The Mideast was mostly pagan.The Muslims did not occupy these lands. They liberated the weak and the slaves from the oppression of tyrants. Those early Muslims did not fight for land or wealth. They gave up their lives only to help other human beings. Instead of accusing others based on your assumptions why don't you read the history? Think about the Quranic verse that was revealed in this regard: "And what is wrong with you that you do not engage in combat for the sake of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help." 4:75

Well, there was widespread slavery under the Caliphates for centuries upon centuries. So I don't see how they took these lands to liberate slaves. The Caliphs were hereditary foreign emperors, much as much of these areas had had before, although they heavily sponsored Islam on top of that, reducing non-Muslims to dhimmi status.

I don't feel the conquest of North Africa, Southwest Asia and parts of South Asia and Europe can be said to be an improvement upon the previous situations anymore than any other conquest.
 
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