Immaculate conception 2.0

[firedragon]

Nope

You are wrong. Knowing, but cheaply saying "nope" is your way. Good to know, whoever you are.

 

[firedragon]

Mary was perfect?
Nope

You are wrong. Knowing, but cheaply saying "nope" is your way. Good to know, whoever you are.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The first para you have written is indeed completely wrong, as other posts in this thread have made clear.

The second has a fair amount of truth in it, so long as you do not use the term "immaculate" in this context, because that just perpetuates the ignorance and misunderstanding about the immaculate conception that those of us who know what it is have been trying to dispel.

It is well to remember that sex has never been officially considered unclean in itself. After all, sex and procreation are largely the point of traditional Christian marriage.

Then it is about Jesus' birth being free from "original sin?" I see.

To my mind, that idea, of course, presents its own problems - such as solidifying the idea of "original sin" being borne down through the progeny of man willy nilly - like being held accountable for the credit debt of your parents... or some guy from a bar fight your dad once had coming to beat you up because your dad is now dead and can no longer bear the brunt of this other man's desire for vengeance. Amazing how easy it is to see the folly in such an idea when one thinks for just a few seconds, and yet how easily it seems to have been written into the mythos of Christianity.

I also really enjoy how you qualified the idea of sex being unclean with "never been officially considered." Unofficially? Yes... I am sure we can all admit that that is a different story. Hence the very reason for the "perpetuation of ignorance and misunderstanding about the immaculate conception." I myself was entirely ignorant, I readily admit... and with the cultural issue that many Christians tend to take with sex, I very, very likely won't be the last.

 

[Glaurung]

It wasn't me who brought original sin into the topic; I was just responding.

Because it's the main point the dogma addresses. The Immaculate Conception is the Catholic dogma that Mary as Mother of God was except from original sin from the moment of her conception. The dogma does not claim that Mary was conceived without sexual intercourse.

Mary was perfect?

Yes.

 

[Altfish]

Because it's the main point the dogma addresses. The Immaculate Conception is the Catholic dogma that Mary as Mother of God was except from original sin from the moment of her conception. The dogma does not claim that Mary was conceived without sexual intercourse.


Yes.

It's not a great story, is it?
Lot of flaws in it.

 

[exchemist]

Then it is about Jesus' birth being free from "original sin?" I see.

To my mind, that idea, of course, presents its own problems - such as solidifying the idea of "original sin" being borne down through the progeny of man willy nilly - like being held accountable for the credit debt of your parents... or some guy from a bar fight your dad once had coming to beat you up because your dad is now dead and can no longer bear the brunt of this other man's desire for vengeance. Amazing how easy it is to see the folly in such an idea when one thinks for just a few seconds, and yet how easily it seems to have been written into the mythos of Christianity.

I also really enjoy how you qualified the idea of sex being unclean with "never been officially considered." Unofficially? Yes... I am sure we can all admit that that is a different story. Hence the very reason for the "perpetuation of ignorance and misunderstanding about the immaculate conception." I myself was entirely ignorant, I readily admit... and with the cultural issue that many Christians tend to take with sex, I very, very likely won't be the last.

Well at least you know now, don't you? So that's a small improvement.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Well at least you know now, don't you? So that's a small improvement.

Clutter in the head is what it is. Would be useless if it weren't for all those others out there who insist that it is important.

 

[blü 2]

"Immaculate Conception" is a Marian doctrine that Mary was born without the effects or inheritance of the Original Sin.

Not Jesus.

I didn't say otherwise.

I said, the Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke are born as the result of the divine insemination of a virgin. It appears that each thought it necessary to make Mary a virgin because the Septuagint translates 'almah (young woman) in Isaiah 7:14 as παρθένος parthenos 'virgin' ─ though of course Isaiah 7:14 isn't about Jesus at all, as a quick read of the context makes plain.

 

[GardenLady]

If you believe God is holy then it follows that the one creature with the privilege of carrying God himself in her womb would herself need to be free from all stain of sin.

Why? God chose to enter humanity. Why require a vessel that was not fully human?

As to the Mother of God thing, Mary was the mother of the human person of Jesus, not the Mother of God. She had no generative role in the existence of God or the divinity of Jesus.

I find the nonscriptural doctrine that Mary never had sex with her husband a reflection of the church's poor view of women.

 

[Glaurung]

Why? God chose to enter humanity. Why require a vessel that was not fully human?

Because God is holy. Therefore it was fitting that the one person destined to carry the incarnate Word in her womb be free from all stain from sin. Mary was free from original sin. She was still fully human. After all, Adam and Eve were created without original sin, yet no one denies their humanity.

As to the Mother of God thing, Mary was the mother of the human person of Jesus, not the Mother of God. She had no generative role in the existence of God or the divinity of Jesus.

Nestorianism is a heresy. There is no human Jesus and divine Jesus. There is only Jesus, fully human and fully God. Therefore, since Jesus is God and Mary is his mother, Mary is properly called Mother of God. IMO any attempt to deny Mary as Mother of God denies the full divinity of Christ.

And no one claims that Mary preexisted God.

I find the nonscriptural doctrine that Mary never had sex with her husband a reflection of the church's poor view of women.

Sorry, but the ancient faith is very clear otherwise. And the belief in Mary's perpetual virginity is not a denigration of women but an exultation of Mary as the greatest of God's creatures. There is no sex in Heaven, so it would have been utterly unbecoming for either our Lord or his mother (the Queen of Heaven) to be touched by the slightest hint of concupiscent desire.

 

[actsfourthirty]

What does it mean to u?

I think it means Jesus was born of god and just appeared.

no mommy involved

hey he rose from the dead too so why not right?

Now do I believe this meaning?
That’s another story

What does it mean to u?

I think it means Jesus was born of god and just appeared.

no mommy involved

hey he rose from the dead too so why not right?

Now do I believe this meaning?
That’s another story

1st Jesus is born of a Virgin
And a perpetual Virgin

matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

 

[actsfourthirty]

What does it mean to u?

I think it means Jesus was born of god and just appeared.

no mommy involved

hey he rose from the dead too so why not right?

Now do I believe this meaning?
That’s another story

2nd it is about Mary being created by God without original sin

Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
(Enmities total war, none of satan’s works found in Her immaculate purity)

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(Immaculate purity, full of grace, blessed)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Mary must have immaculate purity)

Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Preserved from all sin in virtue of the merits of the blood of the savior who is Her son)

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
(Immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus)

Song of Solomon 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Rev 12:1 a woman clothed with the sun.
(Immaculate purity)