Impeachment hearings: Was it worth it?

[leov]

Yes it was dominate. Dominance still does not make what Putin claims is true.

Poland had huge issues with Russian influence such as making Russian mandatory in school



Sure territorial disputes are going to happen. However this was done under the same system Putin attempts to use for his argument. He must abandon his basis or acknowledge that the Chimera was a legal part of the Ukraine SSR.

Putin is nationalist and capitalize, he learned some lessons and is not planning to repeat mistakes, he does not want war, prefers MAD, just leave me alone trading oil/gas for goods and produce but he also knows about market competition and that not all players honest. He can not build superpower , not now just not enough people to build superpower, he would not mind to have White Russia and Ukraine back into Federation. Russia and USA have common foe that we and Russia will make us stick together sooner or later. Foe with imperial goals...

 

[Mr Spinkles]

For those of you who are opposed to the Trump administration, was/is it worth it?

We have no choice. The alternative is to set an extremely bad precedent that Trump, and future presidents of either party, can abuse their immense power to subvert our own democracy without consequences.

I think you are right that the next election is crucial. But, I also think impeachment is necessary.

By the way, forget whether you are for or against the Trump administration. Let’s pretend we are simply for democracy. What could be more important than ensuring the might of U.S. weapons and foreign aid isn’t corruptly used to encourage foreign governments to act as Super PACs in our elections, in favor of the incumbent? I couldn’t have imagined a more insidious subversion of our democracy if I tried.

 

[Watchmen]

The "basket of deplorables" is only part of the voting bloc that got Trump elected. I have seen sources that say seventy percent of Americans agree that what Trump did was wrong. It is the independent voters that decide Presidential elections and this may have hurt Trump badly in that part of the population.

Actually, a recent poll of independent voters shows the impeachment hearings didn’t move the needle.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually, a recent poll of independent voters shows the impeachment hearings didn’t move the needle.

Source please.

 

[Subduction Zone]

While I am waiting 70% think that Trump did something wrong. 51% want him removed:

Impeachment inquiry: 70% say Trump's Ukraine acts 'wrong,' poll finds

And that was before a top Trump ambassador testified that there was a quid pro quo and another debunked the Biden attack.

 

[Watchmen]

Source please.

Pretty sure I posted this yesterday, but here you go again.

Poll: Support for impeachment inquiry ticks down

 

[Watchmen]

While I am waiting 70% think that Trump did something wrong. 51% want him removed:

Impeachment inquiry: 70% say Trump's Ukraine acts 'wrong,' poll finds

And that was before a top Trump ambassador testified that there was a quid pro quo and another debunked the Biden attack.

That poll isn’t about independents, which is what we were talking about.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That poll isn’t about independents, which is what we were talking about.

I know, but it is hard to find a poll just on independents. It polled everyone. Democrats are roughly 40% so are Republicans. The math is not that hard.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I know, but it is hard to find a poll just on independents. It polled everyone. Democrats are roughly 40% so are Republicans. The math is not that hard.

Perhaps, but it was very easy to find articles such as "Do Americans Support Impeaching Trump?" from FiveThirtyEight, and the second graph in this article suggests that support among independents has declined some 6.5 points over the last month. What I found particularly interesting is that support from this group has never breached fifty percent.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Dear god.

The level of self-deception in this paragraph is staggering.

How do you not understand this issue of corrupt, personal use of financial aid yet?

willfully obtuse ignorance

 

[Milton Platt]

For those of you who are opposed to the Trump administration, was/is it worth it?

I suspect that the answer is yes, if only to put a face on the integrity, bravery, and competency of a bureaucracy functioning in an incredibly complicated and often dangerous environment. It was like getting a glimpse of the face of patriotism.

I also suspect that we are fast reaching a point of diminishing returns. The Senate will not remove Trump from office, the basket of deplorables will remain ossified, and the rest will find their attention span seriously challenged, all while the direct and collateral damage effected by the Trump Presidency continue to mount.

All of this serves to emphasize the following: nothing, absolutely nothing, is more important than the coming election.

I don't think you can have a whistle blower (anonymous or otherwise) come forward and make the accusations made and not investigate to determine the validity of the accusations. Both parties should have been okay with that. The door swings both ways....if a President's veracity has been clouded and the investigation clears that cloud and finds him not at fault, it will strengthen his position in the election. If he is found to have "done the deed", then neither party should want him in office again.

 

[Shad]

Officially, but the satellite states had no real power of their own. If the USSR said "Jump", they'd ask "How high?"

The satellite states are not members of the USSR. Poland was not a member of the USSR. Hungary was not a member of the USSR. Both were members of the Warsaw Pact. You are conflating terms here. All you are pointing out is history not a legal argument. Putin is trying to make a legal argument.

 

[Shad]

Putin is nationalist and capitalize, he learned some lessons and is not planning to repeat mistakes, he does not want war, prefers MAD, just leave me alone trading oil/gas for goods and produce but he also knows about market competition and that not all players honest. He can not build superpower , not now just not enough people to build superpower, he would not mind to have White Russia and Ukraine back into Federation. Russia and USA have common foe that we and Russia will make us stick together sooner or later. Foe with imperial goals...

Irrelevant to my post.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't think you can have a whistle blower (anonymous or otherwise) come forward and make the accusations made and not investigate to determine the validity of the accusations.

But they have investigated it and found it to be true.

 

[Milton Platt]

But they have investigated it and found it to be true.

they have taken testimony. If they believe it to be true, AND they believe the presidents actions rise to the level of an impeachable offense, the Senate will then have hearings/ debates and decide whether or not to impeach. The Senate is unlikely to impeach a Republican president

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But they have investigated it and found it to be true.

they have taken testimony. If they believe it to be true, AND they believe the presidents actions rise to the level of an impeachable offense, the Senate will then have hearings/ debates and decide whether or not to impeach. The Senate is unlikely to impeach a Republican president

Folks should pay attention to this exchange. It's classic.

 

[Revoltingest]

Folks should pay attention to this exchange. It's classic.

Who found what "true"?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Who found what "true"?

I know you are replying to Jay but if I may:

Whistleblower said:

“In the course of my official duties, I have received information from multiple U.S. Government officials that the President of the United States is using the power of his office to solicit interference from a foreign country in the 2020 U.S. election. This interference includes, among other things, pressuring a foreign country to investigate one of the President’s main domestic political rivals. The President’s personal lawyer, Mr. Rudolph Giuliani, is a central figure in this effort.”

I think we all found out this was true when several credible witnesses, including Trump’s own appointees, testified under penalty of felony that it was true these past two weeks on live television. Does that clarify?

 

[Revoltingest]

I know you are replying to Jay but if I may:

Whistleblower said:

“In the course of my official duties, I have received information from multiple U.S. Government officials that the President of the United States is using the power of his office to solicit interference from a foreign country in the 2020 U.S. election. This interference includes, among other things, pressuring a foreign country to investigate one of the President’s main domestic political rivals. The President’s personal lawyer, Mr. Rudolph Giuliani, is a central figure in this effort.”

I think we all found out this was true when several credible witnesses, including Trump’s own appointees, testified under penalty of felony that it was true these past two weeks on live television. Does that clarify?

"True" is a high standard.
There is evidence both for & against.
The hearings appear to have left Dems deflated regarding impeachment's utility.
So "true" is an over-reach.

Desire for something to be true can corrupt our perceptions, eh.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

"True" is a high standard.
There is evidence both for & against.
The hearings appear to have left Dems deflated regarding impeachment's utility.
So "true" is an over-reach.

Desire for something to be true can corrupt our perceptions, eh.

Well there is evidence both for and against a flat earth so could you be a little more precise? To be crystal clear: you are not prepared to say it's "true" at this moment that Trump used the power of his office to "[pressure] a foreign country to investigate one of the President’s main domestic political rivals. The President’s personal lawyer, Mr. Rudolph Giuliani, is a central figure in this effort"?

I don't even think Trump himself denies these claims. He only denies that it was inappropriate to do so, and that the $400 million in aid constituted a "quid pro quo".

Once again, I find people willing to use excuses to white wash and obfuscate Trump's behavior that not even Trump agrees with. Again I am reminded of the over-indulgent parent making excuses that the child is unable to come up with in his or her own defense. Not saying that applies to you, but, it's a striking pattern I keep encountering in discussions about Trump. There are people who give him more credit and leeway than Trump even claims for himself, which is fascinating.