Implausability of Satan.

[james2ko]

The idea is if Satan is capable of putting fake fossils on the planet

This is a fallacy.

and if he is capable of forming religions that have nothing to do with him, that have just as much evidence of being real as the "True" religion.

God has permitted this as an integral part of His 7,000 year plan for mankind.

If this being can secretly get us to do things without our knowledge of it. If he can "possess" us and throw us into walls like Christians believe.

This is not scriptural. James 4:7 ;1 Peter 5:8-9, as well as other scriptures, indicate we can exercise our free will and resist Satan. He cannot possess or make us do anything contrary to our will.

 

[Meow Mix]

This is a fallacy.

I'm pretty well versed in logic... in fact, I live and breathe it as a cosmology student. Exactly which fallacy are you accusing this statement of perpetrating? "Satan is capable of putting fake fossils on this planet." This is not a logical fallacy. It's not argumentum ad hominem, it's not a red herring, it's not ignoratio elenchi... it's not any formal or informal fallacy I can think of. If you mean that this is incorrect factually, then fallacy isn't the right word to use and objecting to it requires evidence to the contrary.

God has permitted this as an integral part of His 7,000 year plan for mankind.

Okay, what evidence do you have that the existence of other beliefs/religions/lack of beliefs/religions is part of your god's plan? What causes you to believe this, and in what sense is it a rational thing for your god to do?

 

[gnomon]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist.

That or the cup and balls trick.

Which Ricky Jay does excellently here.
[youtubbe][youtube]Hgm4wZCACYg[/youtube]
YouTube - Ricky Jay - The Cups and Balls[youtube]

But of course, these tricks as sermonized here are great as well.
[youtube][youtube]KN-8G0HCD5U[/youtube]
YouTube - Rowan Atkinson Live - Amazing Jesus[youtube]

 

[Meow Mix]

I think the greatest trick was whoever thought up the idea that magic underwear protects you from Satan. Wasn't that the Mormons?

 

[james2ko]

I'm pretty well versed in logic... in fact, I live and breathe it as a cosmology student. Exactly which fallacy are you accusing this statement of perpetrating? "Satan is capable of putting fake fossils on this planet." This is not a logical fallacy. It's not argumentum ad hominem, it's not a red herring, it's not ignoratio elenchi... it's not any formal or informal fallacy I can think of. If you mean that this is incorrect factually, then fallacy isn't the right word to use and objecting to it requires evidence to the contrary.

Very impressive. And all this time I thought a fallacy was just a false or mistaken idea. Thank you for correcting me.

Okay, what evidence do you have that the existence of other beliefs/religions/lack of beliefs/religions is part of your god's plan? What causes you to believe this, and in what sense is it a rational thing for your god to do?

We are discussing the implausability of satan not God's plan. Start another thread and I would be more than happy to discuss the one true God's 7000 yr plan. I use the bible as my "argumentum ad hominem" so be ready to refute any points with scripture not conjecture.

 

[PolyHedral]

James 4:7 ;1 Peter 5:8-9, as well as other scriptures, indicate we can exercise our free will and resist Satan. He cannot possess or make us do anything contrary to our will.

Would you like to know the really neat thing? Derren Brown can't make you do anything contrary to your will either. Yet he made someone lie on a traintrack in a straightjacket. Your "will" is vulnerable to manipulation of all kinds, and Derren is human. Anything he can do, a supernatural entity should be able to do better.

I use the bible as my "argumentum ad hominem" so be ready to refute any points with scripture not conjecture.

Why doesn't logic take precedence over scripture? If something is logically unsound, it cannot be true, regardless of who says it.

 

[james2ko]

Would you like to know the really neat thing? Derren Brown can't make you do anything contrary to your will either. Yet he made someone lie on a traintrack in a straightjacket. Your "will" is vulnerable to manipulation of all kinds, and Derren is human. Anything he can do, a supernatural entity should be able to do better.

Derren Brown??? You can't be serious?

Why doesn't logic take precedence over scripture? If something is logically unsound, it cannot be true, regardless of who says it.

Why can't scripture be used in conjunction with logic?

 

[Blackdog22]

Derren Brown??? You can't be serious?



Why can't scripture be used in conjunction with logic?

Because snakes don't eat dirt James.

 

[PolyHedral]

Derren Brown??? You can't be serious?

I'm sure he could be incredibly evil if he wanted to. He did, after all, "buy" $15,000 worth of jewelry with blank peices of paper. Why can't the Devil do the same?

 

[james2ko]

I'm sure he could be incredibly evil if he wanted to. He did, after all, "buy" $15,000 worth of jewelry with blank peices of paper. Why can't the Devil do the same?

He most certainly can, If God allows it.

 

[PolyHedral]

So our "free will" comes down to whether or not God lets Satan mess with our heads?

 

[james2ko]

So our "free will" comes down to whether or not God lets Satan mess with our heads?

Our free will determines whether we will or will not allow Satan to mess with our heads. When God allowed Satan to test Job, he exercised His free will to keep His allegiance to God.

 

[PolyHedral]

It's not a question of "allow." Satan will mess with your head, and, like Derren Brown, he will succeed. (Unless he doesn't want to, for his own reasons. Maybe that's what he did with Job.) Unless you're saying that people do actually have a choice about letting Derren mess with their heads, and just go along with it?

 

[james2ko]

][/b]It's not a question of "allow." Satan will mess with your head, and, like Derren Brown, he will succeed.

This is contrary to scripture.

(Unless he doesn't want to, for his own reasons. Maybe that's what he did with Job.) Unless you're saying that people do actually have a choice about letting Derren mess with their heads, and just go along with it?

God allows satan certain priviliges. One of them is to permit satan to possess or influence human beings, not against their free will. When a human being allows his or her mind to be altered, by drugs, alchohol, or some mind control freak, they are surrendering their free will and opening themselves up to satan's devices.

Many people think mind control, getting drunk, doing drugs is fun and exciting. But its actually a technique satan utilizes to trick us into giving up our free will. This is why God condemns these practices.

 

[Blackdog22]

This is contrary to scripture.



God allows satan certain priviliges. One of them is to permit satan to possess or influence human beings, not against their free will. When a human being allows his or her mind to be altered, by drugs, alchohol, or some mind control freak, they are surrendering their free will and opening themselves up to satan's devices.

Many people think mind control, getting drunk, doing drugs is fun and exciting. But its actually a technique satan utilizes to trick us into giving up our free will. This is why God condemns these practices.

So.... Satan had a part in the creation process? Where is the scripture to back that statement up or are you assuming things? The reason I ask is because drugs are part of the earth. Without the materials available to us on Earth there would be no possibility of making drugs. Cocaine, Weed, Heroine, Crack, Mushrooms. They are all made from natural sources! However, adderall isn't natural. So it is more likely to have been influenced by Satan than anything natural. Are you saying kids who get treated for ADD are Satanists?

 

[Blackdog22]

Our free will determines whether we will or will not allow Satan to mess with our heads. When God allowed Satan to test Job, he exercised His free will to keep His allegiance to God.

So Satan is basically asking God: "Hey God... Can I tempt John to throw himself off a bridge?" God of course knows that John will kill himself if he is tempted because he knows all, but says: "That is mighty fine with me Satan. Oh and Satan! Don't forget I am gonna kill you one of these days." Then Satan says: "Thanks God. Thanks for letting me kill your creation."

This is how you think it all happens? I use this story because people are tempted to do things that cause them to die. Suicides happen all the time. If Satan is constantly asking God for permission and God is constantly saying:

"Sure buddy!" Then wouldn't that make God and Satan rather close? I mean imagine all the evil things that Christians attribute to Satan? He would have to ask God for permission quite often. Id say he may even talk to God a billion times a day according to the evil in the world that you attribute to him.

 

[james2ko]

So Satan is basically asking God: "Hey God... Can I tempt John to throw himself off a bridge?" God of course knows that John will kill himself if he is tempted because he knows all, but says: "That is mighty fine with me Satan. Oh and Satan! Don't forget I am gonna kill you one of these days." Then Satan says: "Thanks God. Thanks for letting me kill your creation."

This is how you think it all happens? I use this story because people are tempted to do things that cause them to die. Suicides happen all the time. If Satan is constantly asking God for permission and God is constantly saying:

"Sure buddy!" Then wouldn't that make God and Satan rather close? I mean imagine all the evil things that Christians attribute to Satan? He would have to ask God for permission quite often. Id say he may even talk to God a billion times a day according to the evil in the world that you attribute to him.

It would be unwise to think Satan is responsible for influencing or being directly involved with every evil deed.

 

[james2ko]

So.... Satan had a part in the creation process? Where is the scripture to back that statement up or are you assuming things? The reason I ask is because drugs are part of the earth. Without the materials available to us on Earth there would be no possibility of making drugs. Cocaine, Weed, Heroine, Crack, Mushrooms. They are all made from natural sources! However, adderall isn't natural. So it is more likely to have been influenced by Satan than anything natural. Are you saying kids who get treated for ADD are Satanists?

Most of those substances, in their purest form, have medicinal value. Man has perverted their use.

 

[tomato1236]

That or the cup and balls trick.

Which Ricky Jay does excellently here.
[youtubbe][youtube]Hgm4wZCACYg[/youtube]
YouTube - Ricky Jay - The Cups and Balls[youtube]

That trick IS amazing.

 

[tomato1236]

I think the greatest trick was whoever thought up the idea that magic underwear protects you from Satan. Wasn't that the Mormons?

Well. "Magic underwear" is certainly the anti-mormon term for it. But yes, it was the mormons. And that's not the whole story, though I recognize you're not probably trying to give a thorough report on the practices of momonity.