IN CHRISTMAS, whom we celebrate..., to Santa Calus, Harry Potter, or Jesus?

[Porque77]

Since the values associated with Christmas are pretty universal (even in the secular realm), and include things like family togetherness, friendship, giving, gratitude, good will, etc., should it matter which symbols are used to "deck the halls," be they Christian, pagan, or secular?

Great! ... The apostles taught the Gospel's Christmas, and the world now teaches pagan festivals.

The Gospel does not need pagan festivals. The Gospel says it all. It tells how Jesus was born and how the angels and the shepherds celebrated the birth of Jesus.

It's crazy to think that the Gospel require of pagan festivals.

Those needing pagan festivals to celebrate Christmas, are not Christians. They are only pagans.

To say that Christmas is a pagan holiday, that's just the antichrist philosophies.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Great! ... The apostles taught the Gospel's Christmas, and the world now teaches pagan festivals.

The Gospel does not need pagan festivals. The Gospel says it all. It tells how Jesus was born and how the angels and the shepherds celebrated the birth of Jesus.

It's crazy to think that the Gospel require of pagan festivals.

Those needing pagan festivals to celebrate Christmas, are not Christians. They are only pagans.

To say that Christmas is a pagan holiday, that's just the antichrist philosophies.

You don't acknowledge any link between the original sites of Christian churches and preceding Pagan gathering places?
You don't acknowledge any link between the dates of various Christian celebrations and preceding Pagan celebrations?

 

[Sees]

You don't acknowledge any link between the original sites of Christian churches and preceding Pagan gathering places?
You don't acknowledge any link between the dates of various Christian celebrations and preceding Pagan celebrations?

I think there is a barrier preventing an open mind to history that will be there for awhile

For somebody who doesn't have a bias Christianity is another form of pagan religion just like everything else...different pantheon and varied, blended cultural origins just like all the others.

There was no shame in the minds of the Church leaders doing all the historical appropriation and some wrote about it at length, describing it as a blessed act.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think there is a barrier preventing an open mind to history that will be there for awhile

For somebody who doesn't have a bias Christianity is another form of pagan religion just like everything else...different pantheon and varied, blended cultural origins just like all the others.

There was no shame in the minds of the Church leaders doing all the historical appropriation and some wrote about it at length, describing it as a blessed act.

This is kinda why I see it as interesting. There are some pretty plausible explanations for why things have turned out the way they have without resorting to some sort of 'Evil Christians stole pagan celebrations' narrative.

But ignoring the linkage seems like burying ones head in the sand. I always wonder why some people who believe in a higher power bury their head from demonstrably true things. Seems an interesting tactic, and inconsistent with true belief.

 

[Porque77]

You don't acknowledge any link between the original sites of Christian churches and preceding Pagan gathering places?
You don't acknowledge any link between the dates of various Christian celebrations and preceding Pagan celebrations?

I recognize only the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Could you tell us you what day Jesus was born? Could you tell me why Christians should not celebrate the day Jesus was born?

All men have whims, and your pleasure is that men do not celebrate the birth of Jesus.

There are whims that then become law, and we have to be careful with those things. The Birth of Jesus Christ is so beautiful, that it is to celebrate every day.

Pagan celebrations, have nothing to do with the celebration of Christmas, have nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The rest are old wives tales

 

[Sees]

I recognize only the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Could you tell us you what day Jesus was born? Could you tell me why Christians should not celebrate the day Jesus was born?

All men have whims, and your pleasure is that men do not celebrate the birth of Jesus.

There are whims that then become law, and we have to be careful with those things. The Birth of Jesus Christ is so beautiful, that it is to celebrate every day.

Pagan celebrations, have nothing to do with the celebration of Christmas, have nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The rest are old wives tales

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Great! ... The apostles taught the Gospel's Christmas, and the world now teaches pagan festivals.

The Gospel does not need pagan festivals. The Gospel says it all. It tells how Jesus was born and how the angels and the shepherds celebrated the birth of Jesus.

It's crazy to think that the Gospel require of pagan festivals.

Those needing pagan festivals to celebrate Christmas, are not Christians. They are only pagans.

To say that Christmas is a pagan holiday, that's just the antichrist philosophies.

Humanity requires festivals. Of all kinds. The true antichrist is the one that denies and destroys the nameless and universal Christ that has no boundaries and can be found throughout humanity.

It's crazy to think that the human spirit can be confined to a single creed.

We celebrate because we are human, and to deny any other celebration besides your own culture's interpretation is more detrimental to the Christ spirit than any secularization or pagan interpretation ever could.

 

[Ronn]

Yes, it is the wrong thing to do. That's why Paul said,

1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

We have to make an intelligent choice about our lives. If we treat life as a joke, we may be guilty of misleading others, like the children.

Ronn

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Yes, it is the wrong thing to do. That's why Paul said,

1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

We have to make an intelligent choice about our lives. If we treat life as a joke, we may be guilty of misleading others, like the children.

Ronn

If we treat life too seriously, without the joke, then we miss out on an important human aspect of living.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I recognize only the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Could you tell us you what day Jesus was born? Could you tell me why Christians should not celebrate the day Jesus was born?

You misunderstand me, I think. I have no issue with Christians celebrating the birth of Christ. I find it unlikely that Dec 25th is the date of his birth. l also find it unlikely that we are now 2013 years and a few weeks past this birthdate. It interests me why you would be so determined to NOT see any linkages between Christian celebrations and Pagan ones.

All men have whims, and your pleasure is that men do not celebrate the birth of Jesus.

Phht...rubbish. One 'whim' l have is for people to converse in a true, honest and straightforward manner. if you want to know anything about me, ask. But please don't pre-suppose you know what my 'whims' are.

There are whims that then become law, and we have to be careful with those things. The Birth of Jesus Christ is so beautiful, that it is to celebrate every day.
Pagan celebrations, have nothing to do with the celebration of Christmas, have nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The rest are old wives tales

Interesting...do you believe Jesus was born on the 25th December in a Bethlehem stable, in the year 0?

 

[Porque77]

Humanity requires festivals. Of all kinds. The true antichrist is the one that denies and destroys the nameless and universal Christ that has no boundaries and can be found throughout humanity.

It's crazy to think that the human spirit can be confined to a single creed.

We celebrate because we are human, and to deny any other celebration besides your own culture's interpretation is more detrimental to the Christ spirit than any secularization or pagan interpretation ever could.

The angels celebrated Christmas, and too celebrated it the shepherds and the Wise Men from the East who came to worship Jesus: (Luke 2:8-14 y Matthew 2:1-11)

That what you say are widespread and are tales that have nothing to do with reality. Christmas is not a tool used by any religion. Christmas is part of the Gospel, that reminds you of the Glorious Birth of Jesus Christ.

The pagan idolaters are those who want to end the Christmas, saying that Christmas is a pagan holiday.

 

[Porque77]

It interests me why you would be so determined to NOT see any linkages between Christian celebrations and Pagan ones.

Christmas has nothing to do with pagan festivals because the angels celebrated it, and too celebrated it the shepherds and the Wise Men from the East who came to worship Jesus: (Luke 2:8-14 y Matthew 2:1-11)

Christmas is not a tool used by any religion. Christmas is part of the Gospel, that reminds you of the Glorious Birth of Jesus Christ.

The pagan idolaters are those who want to end the Christmas, saying that Christmas is a pagan holiday.

 

[Sees]

Christmas has nothing to do with pagan festivals because the angels celebrated it, and too celebrated it the shepherds and the Wise Men from the East who came to worship Jesus: (Luke 2:8-14 y Matthew 2:1-11)

Christmas is not a tool used by any religion. Christmas is part of the Gospel, that reminds you of the Glorious Birth of Jesus Christ.

The pagan idolaters are those who want to end the Christmas, saying that Christmas is a pagan holiday.

Brother this is imaginary. I am a pagan idolater to the fullest, I don't want to end Christmas. I don't know of any that do. Why would anybody want to take away your Christmas? The only people having a fit over Christmas are some Christians themselves and people tired of buying/commercialization of any or all holidays.

Talking about history and/or celebrating different or additional stories and traditions isn't going after Christmas or Jesus.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Christmas has nothing to do with pagan festivals because the angels celebrated it, and too celebrated it the shepherds and the Wise Men from the East who came to worship Jesus: (Luke 2:8-14 y Matthew 2:1-11)

Christmas is not a tool used by any religion. Christmas is part of the Gospel, that reminds you of the Glorious Birth of Jesus Christ.

The pagan idolaters are those who want to end the Christmas, saying that Christmas is a pagan holiday.

Your viewpoint isn't supportable by any evidence, as near as I can tell. To be fair, I'm limiting my fact-checking to nominally Christian sources, so as to avoid 'pagan bias', but I know that's not as simple in practice as it sounds. My go-to text for Christian history tends to be A History of Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years by Diarmaid MacCulloch, but since I don't have it with me, I can't directly quote. Instead I'd offer the following;

How December 25 Became Christmas – Biblical Archaeology Society

This doesn't actually support the pagan festival theory, and like I said, I'm trying to be unbiased here. Not that I'd have any particular reason for supporting pagan beliefs in any case.

The interesting thing is that I am yet to see any Biblical reference to the date selected for Christmas, nor any serious Christian scholar who has provided cause or evidence which is not at least partially secular in nature in terms of why that date is used to celebrate Christ's birth.

I'm also clueless as to why you'd think I was a pagan idolator, nor why you quote-mined one line from my last post, and ignored the questions I directly asked.

However I post this in the hope that you are on a debate forum with the willingness to discuss a topic, and not dismiss views contra to your own without examination.

 

[Ouroboros]

Christmas has nothing to do with pagan festivals

Oh, you have no clue.

The church took the celebration around 25th of December for the celebration of Jesus' birth even though Jesus supposedly was born in April (or something like that).

This is the time for winter solstice. Look it up. You have four main points in the astrological calendar. Look for winter solstice, summer solstice, and the equinoxes.

because the angels celebrated it, and too celebrated it the shepherds and the Wise Men from the East who came to worship Jesus: (Luke 2:8-14 y Matthew 2:1-11)

There's no date, month, day, or anything in the Bible to conclude that Jesus was born in December. Just because the angels celebrated his birth doesn't mean his birth was in December.

Christmas is not a tool used by any religion. Christmas is part of the Gospel, that reminds you of the Glorious Birth of Jesus Christ.

Sure. But most (if not all) scholars agree that Jesus wasn't born in December. It's just a date picked by the early church for the celebration.

The pagan idolaters are those who want to end the Christmas, saying that Christmas is a pagan holiday.

It was originally a pagan holiday. The early catholic church wanted to replace the pagan holiday with a church holiday. They didn't have Jesus birthday on any other good date of the calendar, so it was an easy choice.

---

With that being said, I celebrate Christmas gladly. We do the nativity scene. We do christmas trees. Gifts. Food. Everything. I could even give a blessing if my kids were okay with it. I revel in the myths and stories. I think they're cool and interesting and spiritual, even though I know they're not historical. It's not about history. It's about story.

 

[Porque77]

Talking about history and/or celebrating different or additional stories and traditions isn't going after Christmas or Jesus.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it.

That's not what I see every year. Every year there are more tales of magic and less memory of the Birth of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel would be attacked in the end times by atheists, false christians and false religions enemy of the Gospel.

You remind me that man who, when the pastor says: The Wolf...,The wolf..., he replies: The wolf?..., where...? I see nothing, only lambs.

 

[truthBtold]

the shepards were tending to their flock out in the field, when they saw the star, they rushed over to see baby jesus,, but wait that story in the bible is not true.. shepards dont tend their flock in the winter months,, its too COLD!!! so jesus was probable born in the spring or summer or fall or never.

 

[Porque77]

the shepards were tending to their flock out in the field, when they saw the star, they rushed over to see baby jesus,, but wait that story in the bible is not true.. shepards dont tend their flock in the winter months,, its too COLD!!! so jesus was probable born in the spring or summer or fall or never.

Hello, Btold . What you say is wrong, because the shepherds were in the field with his sheep and were keeping watch in the night because they lived in the fields. That's what the scripture says. Now I write the quote of The Interlinear Greek New Testament Scripture:

"And shepherds Were in the county, in the same, living in the fields, and kept on their shifts of the night watch over the flock of them".

And also I write the quote as say some others versions of the scripture:

"Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night"

"And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night"

 

[InChrist]

the shepards were tending to their flock out in the field, when they saw the star, they rushed over to see baby jesus,, but wait that story in the bible is not true.. shepards dont tend their flock in the winter months,, its too COLD!!! so jesus was probable born in the spring or summer or fall or never.

This is an old argument and an uneducated statement. Bethlehem has a mild winter climate and the rainy season ( when there is grass for grazing sheep) is from November through April, similar to California. It would not have been too cold for shepherds to be out with their flocks.

 

[Porque77]

This is an old argument and an uneducated statement. Bethlehem has a mild winter climate and the rainy season ( when there is grass for grazing sheep) is from November through April, similar to California. It would not have been too cold for shepherds to be out with their flocks.

Hello friend. That's how you say. That argument about the cold in winter is not argument to go around saying that Jesus Christ was not born in winter. Tradition places the birth of Jesus Christ in cold weather and there is no reason to doubt that fact.

All arguments against the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ are of the antichrist, who wants detruir Christmas and then the whole Gospel.