In Genesis the plants were created before the sun moon and stars

[excreationist]

Do you have a point?
Fruit trees not days but years?

Yes in post #91 wellwisher said that on day 4 the sun, moon, and stars became visible in the sky.... that was after the fruit trees on day 3.... so that means that around 200 million years ago the sun wasn't visible in the sky at all and I don't think that's compatible with science.

 

[Pogo]

Yes in post #91 wellwisher said that on day 4 the sun, moon, and stars became visible in the sky.... that was after the fruit trees on day 3.... so that means that around 200 million years ago the sun wasn't visible in the sky at all and I don't think that's compatible with science.

Wellwisher?
Anything for the rest of us?

 

[Audie]

Wellwisher?
Anything for the rest of us?

Ya gotta go @wellwisher if you want him
to notice.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Suit yourself re continuing.

You wouldnt know that my Mom was a
professor of English lit, that I'm a voracious
reader in both English and Chinese.
That I've read the bible cover to cover.

Pretty much bicultural Chinese / American.

You do way too much assuming, to,
quite frankly, the point of making things up.

Pretty tough to "consult" if you persist in that, and
consider corrections a fighting.

Now, to the bible.
A lot of it just is not true.

Far from promoting wisdom that leads to
vast confusion, half of the Americans think
" god" really drowned all the people and baby rabbits.

Seems like telling the truth would be better.
If there's any truth at all in the "god" bit.

There is folk wisdom of course. Lessons about
character, human nature. The same,ideas are also
hard wired into our culture.

Fiction is routinely used as a vehicle for imparting
values from earliest age.

It's not like I'm defective and dont know that.

You said there's profound truths in the Bible.
I'm didn't see any.

I asked you to share an example or two.
Can you?

Thanks for coming back to me on this and before anything else please understand that I have no interest in provoking or antagonizing you. It seems that you find my nature unpleasant and if we're not hitting it off right now one option would be for us to set our convo aside for a while. Most people in the world find value in the Bible; it seems you don't and that's fine and I can respect that.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Sometimes it takes time to "figure things out." And sometimes maybe we won't do it in this lifetime. That's one reason why I like the Bible, and now that I think about it, Moses took a long time in the wilderness -- like 40 years -- yes, it seems astounding but interestingly enough the arguments continued then. God helped him. I can't figure it all out, that's for sure, Although there have been artifacts verifying some of what the Bible says. I just trust in God that He's there -- He's helped me 'cope' with this world and so I look forward to the future, hoping ... doing the best I can in my imperfect state.

Something I've found useful is to simply accept God as being the same as Reality itself. People can live in delusion or they can accept reality on its own terms. What's more is that I LIKE reality and I'd even say that I experience a personal relationship w/ all that is. I am dedicated to all that is real.

Well, I notice two things: one is that naysayers like to attack those who staunchly believe in the Bible, but not those that claim they belong to a religion but also believe in the theory of evolution and a God that may be there or may not be there, except maybe in essence somehow. Now if someone can figure that out, that would be great. But each one is allowed by God to believe or not believe. And I believe and have firm hope that He will settle matters justly.
Take care and have a really good day. You put a smile on my face in a good way today.

If others disagree w/ us that's still good, we can learn a lot more from those who disagree w/ us than from just those who say what we already say. The problem is with those who are filled with their righteous doctrinal orthodox ideology and they wall themselves off from all else. There's no talking to them and I often find them toxic. No problem, there're plenty of folks in the world who can disagree w/ me but still be friendly. You're absolutely right about being happy, we need that!

Cheers!

 

[Audie]

Thanks for coming back to me on this and before anything else please understand that I have no interest in provoking or antagonizing you. It seems that you find my nature unpleasant and if we're not hitting it off right now one option would be for us to set our convo aside for a while. Most people in the world find value in the Bible; it seems you don't and that's fine and I can respect that.

You don't antaginize me, but it's frustrating
that you somehow misconstrue virtually everything
I say.

Christians, who are not "most people" find what
they want to find in the bible.

I found some decent poetry, good stories.
I found nothing of unique or special value
that made reading the whole thing worthwhile.

But yeah if you are going to routindly turn what I say
into something i didn't say, there's no "convo" to
be had.

I'd have liked to hear of the profound
truths i kept asking about but i guess you
won't be telling me.

 

[Pete in Panama]

You don't antaginize me, but it's frustrating
that you somehow misconstrue virtually everything
I say.

It's unfortunate that my presence is presenting unwanted frustration to you. We can drop this for now and maybe come back later.

Christians, who are not "most people" find what
they want to find in the bible.

That's true, they're only some 35% of the world's population. Please remember that Islam honors and accepts the Bible and Muslims like Christians see value there. Muslims are about 20% of the world's population so that brings the total who explicitly prefer the Bible to the level of "most people".

I found some decent poetry, good stories.
I found nothing of unique or special value
that made reading the whole thing worthwhile.

But yeah if you are going to routindly turn what I say
into something i didn't say, there's no "convo" to
be had.

Please let me know specifically what words I'm saying that lead you to the conclusion that I turn what you say into something else. I need to know.

I'd have liked to hear of the profound
truths i kept asking about but i guess you
won't be telling me.

Two thoughts on that, one is that when you appeared to suggest that there weren't any such truths I gave up the point as no longer useful. The other is that you could easily dismiss any idea that I considered profound.

How about I give you the last word here and we meetup elsewhere?

 

[YoursTrue]

Something I've found useful is to simply accept God as being the same as Reality itself. People can live in delusion or they can accept reality on its own terms. What's more is that I LIKE reality and I'd even say that I experience a personal relationship w/ all that is. I am dedicated to all that is real.

If others disagree w/ us that's still good, we can learn a lot more from those who disagree w/ us than from just those who say what we already say. The problem is with those who are filled with their righteous doctrinal orthodox ideology and they wall themselves off from all else. There's no talking to them and I often find them toxic. No problem, there're plenty of folks in the world who can disagree w/ me but still be friendly. You're absolutely right about being happy, we need that!

Cheers!

Thanks. I have come to understand, recognize and believe the following:
Berean Literal Bible 1 Peter 2:5.
"who are being guarded by the power of God through faith, for the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"
Faith is not something we can get from anyone but God. I can't give the gift of faith to anyone but I can tell about God. Someone can preach, but faith is nevertheless one of the gifts of God's spirit.

 

[Brian2]

When the Earth formed there was no water on the surface. It was . . . hmm, what is that scientific term for what the surface was like? Oh yeah! Hot!!

I suppose it was a hot surface at a certain point in the creation of the earth.
That is plainly not the time that the Bible is speaking of, it is speaking of a time when there was water on the surface and I imagine it is that water which helped cool the surface and which ended up surrounding the earth in thick clouds as the Bible says. (Job 38:9)

 

[Brian2]

Note: some people will say anything to contradict or refute what the Bible says.

I have noticed that.

 

[Brian2]

Apparently fruit trees only appeared about 200 million years ago (day 3) - so did the sun, moon and stars only become visible after that?

I think that whenever things are said to have been made (eg plants and fruit trees), that probably means that the evolution of those things began at that time.
It is like when in Gen 1:1 it says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, that does not mean that it was all created and stayed the same as when created,,,,,,,,,,,,, it changed, evolved, into what it became after it was created.
So it was much longer than 200 Million years ago that plants were created and began to evolve. At that time there was light reaching the earth through the clouds, but the heavenly bodies could not be seen distinctly until day 4. (and of course there were no animals to see the heavenly bodies till day 4 also)

 

[The Hammer]

I think that whenever things are said to have been made (eg plants and fruit trees), that probably means that the evolution of those things began at that time.
It is like when in Gen 1:1 it says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, that does not mean that it was all created and stayed the same as when created,,,,,,,,,,,,, it changed, evolved, into what it became after it was created.
So it was much longer than 200 Million years ago that plants were created and began to evolve. At that time there was light reaching the earth through the clouds, but the heavenly bodies could not be seen distinctly until day 4. (and of course there were no animals to see the heavenly bodies till day 4 also)

At least your trying.

 

[excreationist]

I think that whenever things are said to have been made (eg plants and fruit trees), that probably means that the evolution of those things began at that time.
It is like when in Gen 1:1 it says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, that does not mean that it was all created and stayed the same as when created,,,,,,,,,,,,, it changed, evolved, into what it became after it was created.
So it was much longer than 200 Million years ago that plants were created and began to evolve. At that time there was light reaching the earth through the clouds, but the heavenly bodies could not be seen distinctly until day 4. (and of course there were no animals to see the heavenly bodies till day 4 also)

The Bible talks about fruit trees being created on day 3 - not just the ancestors of fruit trees. I can't really find a link to support it but I suspect the brightness of the sun in the clouds could be seen a lot longer ago that 200 million years ago. Also sea and land life was meant to have been around even though they were meant to be on days 5 and 6.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I suppose it was a hot surface at a certain point in the creation of the earth.
That is plainly not the time that the Bible is speaking of, it is speaking of a time when there was water on the surface and I imagine it is that water which helped cool the surface and which ended up surrounding the earth in thick clouds as the Bible says. (Job 38:9)

So then the verse should have began "Not at the beginning".

 

[Eli G]

The Bible talks about fruit trees being created on day 3 - not just the ancestors of fruit trees. I can't really find a link to support it but I suspect the brightness of the sun in the clouds could be seen a lot longer ago that 200 million years ago. Also sea and land life was meant to have been around even though they were meant to be on days 5 and 6.

If you go down in this webpage you'll find what the Bible says about the 6 creative days in the book of Genesis https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201403/untold-story-of-creation/

 

[excreationist]

If you go down in this webpage you'll find what the Bible says about the 6 creative days in the book of Genesis https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201403/untold-story-of-creation/

That Jehovah Witness' web page leaves out that on day 3 there were fruit trees (it just says "Some vegetation appears"). Fruit trees only emerged around 200 million years ago - long after the sea and land creatures that were meant to be created on days 5 and 6. Though I guess it is better than believing in a young earth or a flat earth.

 

[Eli G]

... Though I guess it is better than believing in a young earth or a flat earth.

You choose what to believe, of course.

 

[Eli G]

A magazine published by our Goberning body in 1990 says:

"Some dinosaurs (and pterosaurs) may indeed have been created in the fifth era listed in Genesis, when the Bible says that God made “flying creatures” and “great sea monsters.” Perhaps other types of dinosaurs were created in the sixth epoch. The vast array of dinosaurs with their huge appetites would have been appropriate considering the abundant vegetation that evidently existed in their time.—Genesis 1:20-24." (g90 2/8)

So, we Jehovah's Witnesses consider that although the account of the 6 creative days or "eras" is ordered according to the general appearance of the things that were created, the periods may have overlapped.

For example, land animals were created long before man, but the Scripture also says that there were some that were brought to Adam while they were being created, so there may be some of later creation. The Bible also says that plants appeared on the third day... However, there may have been plants created at some later time.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A magazine published by our Goberning body in 1990 says:

"Some dinosaurs (and pterosaurs) may indeed have been created in the fifth era listed in Genesis, when the Bible says that God made “flying creatures” and “great sea monsters.” Perhaps other types of dinosaurs were created in the sixth epoch. The vast array of dinosaurs with their huge appetites would have been appropriate considering the abundant vegetation that evidently existed in their time.—Genesis 1:20-24." (g90 2/8)

So, we Jehovah's Witnesses consider that although the account of the 6 creative days or "eras" is ordered according to the general appearance of the things that were created, the periods may have overlapped.

For example, land animals were created long before man, but the Scripture also says that there were some that were brought to Adam while they were being created, so there may be some of later creation. The Bible also says that plants appeared on the third day... However, there may have been plants created at some later time.

You should look into how we know that the Earth is billions of years old. Unless you want to claim that God is a liar.

If God cannot lie Genesis cannot be read literally.

 

[Unfettered]

Just in case people didn't notice it before, this is what it says in Genesis 1:
As you can see there are similarities between days 1 and 4, days 2 and 5, and days 3 and 6. See:

Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It has a kind of poetic structure so it might not be intended to be taken 100% literally and historically.

Young earth creationists take it literally and say that the original light source was God and it was then replaced on day 4. Then in Revelation this reverts back:
Revelation 21:23

Revelation 22:5

It is a problem for old earth creationists though they would say that on day 3 the plants were receiving light from the sky but the sun moon and stars only became distinct in the sky a long time later. (day-age theory)

https://www.oldearth.org/old_earth_creationism.htm

Btw I’ve heard YECs say that God didn’t create the sun first to not place a lot of importance on it since some people worshipped the sun.

We all live in God's creation. We can see that it works. If the Bible record of how it was done doesn't conform to what we understand about orders of operation, we are still living in God's creation, and we can still see that it works.

I guess I don't understand; it seems like this thread wants to make cornbread from sand. What am I missing?