IN God's Image

[outhouse]

Or as Confucius supposedly said: the more you know, the more you know you really don't know.

Cop out for refusing knowledge

 

[metis]

Cop out for refusing knowledge

I embrace knowledge, but I don't strut around claiming I know "the answers" when there's too good of a chance of not being correct. It's like the phrase: "To a child, a tree is simple; but to a biologist, a tree is very complex".

 

[metis]

If its really that important, here's some basic answers.
1. To teach us humility - if G-d can ask for help, so can we. (Rashi) (Or HaChaim)
2. To prevent jealousy among the angels (that Man is more special than angels even though Man is physical), G-d asked them to be a part of the process. (Rashi)
3. The Name Elohim in Judaism is associated with G-d's kingship, so the royal us is being used here. The creation of man is being attached to this Name, because it it relates to the rest of the verse: man being given dominion (like a ruler) over the creatures. (Ibn Ezra) And is used in Isa. 6:8 as well. (Rashbam)
4. As opposed to the land and the water giving forth their respective creatures, the usage here represents G-d's saying, "We of the Heavens" will bring forth man. (Ibn Ezra)
5. The "we" is going back on verse 24 where the earth gave forth animals. Now it is saying We together, the Earth and the Heavens, will create Man. (Nachmanides)
6. Because there are 13 attributes of mercy and in this case, the Name Elohim which represents the attribute of judgement also agreed. (Or HaChaim)
7. After all the animals were created, the angels started to become haughty thinking they were the best thing ever. So 'let us make man' is G-d challenging the angels to try and create Man, to show them that as lofty as they are, they're not G-d. The following verse returns to the obvious, only G-d could actually make man. (Zera Yitzchak)

There are more answers, but they start to get longer more Midrashic or more esoteric and also, I'm not about to pull out a bunch of books just to give you extra answers

And this is why some people who claim certainty are just so far off base. Good post.

 

[outhouse]

when there's too good of a chance of not being correct.

What can be wrong about the most plausible explanation, knowing Israelites were polytheist who did in fact worship a family of gods?

Israelites worshipped a family of gods. it is not up for debate. There is your plural.


Plural needs to be explained in context, and the obvious answer is the most plausible. Ignoring the evidence addresses nothing

 

[Tumah]

And this is why some people who claim certainty are just so far off base. Good post.

I have no idea how your statement relates to what I wrote, but I'll take the misplaced complement anyway!

 

[outhouse]

And this is why some people who claim certainty are just so far off base. Good post.

That is apologetic rhetoric from someone why refuses credible history in favor of religious bias.


And imagine that he is also the same faith as you

 

[outhouse]

I have no idea how your statement relates to what I wrote,

he is grasping at straws at this point.

 

[metis]

I have no idea how your statement relates to what I wrote, but I'll take the misplaced complement anyway!

You put out a list of different commentaries relating to the OP from different sages, and my point was that there simply is no way to narrow down which is/are correct.

 

[wizanda]

knowing Israelites were polytheist who did in fact worship a family of gods?

That isn't correct either, Is Ra EL worshiped EL and believed in other gods; then they were reformed to worship YHVH, after they were told he was EL.

So wasn't aware they were polytheist; they've just plagiarized different cultures, thus caused confusion from their different contexts.

 

[metis]

That is apologetic rhetoric from someone why refuses credible history in favor of religious bias.


And imagine that he is also the same faith as you

And imagine that I'm agnostic, if you would read what I have under my avatar, which just again confirms the fact that you continue to jump to one conclusion after another after another...

As I've said previously, relating to all too many of your posts, it is pretty much impossible to have a serious discussion with you, which is why I ignore you most of the time, and which I will not hesitate to do again-- such as right after this post.

 

[outhouse]

and my point was that there simply is no way to narrow down which is/are correct.

Your wrong in this case.

Do you deny early Israelites did not worship a family of deities. ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[71][72] With the emergence of the monarchy at the beginning of Iron Age II the kings promoted their family god, Yahweh, as the god of the kingdom, but beyond the royal court, religion continued to be both polytheistic and family-centered.[73] The major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[74] At an early stage El and Yahweh became fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[74] although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times

 

[Tumah]

You put out a list of different commentaries relating to the OP from different sages, and my point was that there simply is no way to narrow down which is/are correct.

They're all correct, why would we want to narrow it down? The more the opinions, the more we learn about the subject.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

If its really that important, here's some basic answers.
1. To teach us humility - if G-d can ask for help, so can we. (Rashi) (Or HaChaim)
2. To prevent jealousy among the angels (that Man is more special than angels even though Man is physical), G-d asked them to be a part of the process. (Rashi)
3. The Name Elohim in Judaism is associated with G-d's kingship, so the royal us is being used here. The creation of man is being attached to this Name, because it it relates to the rest of the verse: man being given dominion (like a ruler) over the creatures. (Ibn Ezra) And is used in Isa. 6:8 as well. (Rashbam)
4. As opposed to the land and the water giving forth their respective creatures, the usage here represents G-d's saying, "We of the Heavens" will bring forth man. (Ibn Ezra)
5. The "we" is going back on verse 24 where the earth gave forth animals. Now it is saying We together, the Earth and the Heavens, will create Man. (Nachmanides)
6. Because there are 13 attributes of mercy and in this case, the Name Elohim which represents the attribute of judgement also agreed. (Or HaChaim)
7. After all the animals were created, the angels started to become haughty thinking they were the best thing ever. So 'let us make man' is G-d challenging the angels to try and create Man, to show them that as lofty as they are, they're not G-d. The following verse returns to the obvious, only G-d could actually make man. (Zera Yitzchak)

There are more answers, but they start to get longer more Midrashic or more esoteric and also, I'm not about to pull out a bunch of books just to give you extra answers

Purely a question of information: Long ago, I had been told (and I've seen it in several other sources, none of which I believe to be authoritative...as I have several of these points you put here) that the word "Elohim" means "Powers," a plural. If so, it doesn't confuse me in the least. Thank you if you can validate it or correct me on that.

 

[outhouse]

So early Israelites worshipped plural gods which explains "our" plural text

 

[outhouse]

that the word "Elohim" means

Do you understand how the definition evolved over time?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Do you understand how the definition evolved over time?

At this point, I don't care how the word evolved. I'm not debating anything, I'm looking to someone who does apparently know something about Judaism whether or not something I learned is, is not, or might or might not be a correct. If you can enlighten me on that, fine. If not, please go on with your arguing with other people.

 

[Tumah]

Purely a question of information: Long ago, I had been told (and I've seen it in several other sources, none of which I believe to be authoritative...as I have several of these points you put here) that the word "Elohim" means "Powers," a plural. If so, it doesn't confuse me in the least. Thank you if you can validate it or correct me on that.

That seems to be the case. It could also be an answer, but it would beg the question why Elohim is not always written with plural conjugated verbs as it is here. So it seems, even though that's what the word means, ultimately its being used as a name, which returns us to the original question. But as a Name, its meaning has implications for its usage. So we would ask why is this Name used here as opposed to another and we could derive an answer based on the meaning of this Name vs. the others.

 

[Thana]

If its really that important, here's some basic answers.
1. To teach us humility - if G-d can ask for help, so can we. (Rashi) (Or HaChaim)
2. To prevent jealousy among the angels (that Man is more special than angels even though Man is physical), G-d asked them to be a part of the process. (Rashi)
3. The Name Elohim in Judaism is associated with G-d's kingship, so the royal us is being used here. The creation of man is being attached to this Name, because it it relates to the rest of the verse: man being given dominion (like a ruler) over the creatures. (Ibn Ezra) And is used in Isa. 6:8 as well. (Rashbam)
4. As opposed to the land and the water giving forth their respective creatures, the usage here represents G-d's saying, "We of the Heavens" will bring forth man. (Ibn Ezra)
5. The "we" is going back on verse 24 where the earth gave forth animals. Now it is saying We together, the Earth and the Heavens, will create Man. (Nachmanides)
6. Because there are 13 attributes of mercy and in this case, the Name Elohim which represents the attribute of judgement also agreed. (Or HaChaim)
7. After all the animals were created, the angels started to become haughty thinking they were the best thing ever. So 'let us make man' is G-d challenging the angels to try and create Man, to show them that as lofty as they are, they're not G-d. The following verse returns to the obvious, only G-d could actually make man. (Zera Yitzchak)

There are more answers, but they start to get longer more Midrashic or more esoteric and also, I'm not about to pull out a bunch of books just to give you extra answers

Hmm, how interesting.
Really makes me realize how similar Christians and Jews really are, that we all interpret the bible to suit our personal biases.

Thank you for answering, It was important to me because I believed it to be more constructive than you complaining about how Christians stole your God.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

That seems to be the case. It could also be an answer, but it would beg the question why Elohim is not always written with plural conjugated verbs as it is here. So it seems, even though that's what the word means, ultimately its being used as a name, which returns us to the original question. But as a Name, its meaning has implications for its usage. So we would ask why is this Name used here as opposed to another and we could derive an answer based on the meaning of this Name vs. the others.

Thank you. I'm sure someone has done exactly as you posit. Clearly, there's lots of room for discussion, but I really just wanted further clarification.

 

[outhouse]

If you can enlighten me on that, fine

Elohim evolved from belief in El the father god.

""Is ra El"" Belief in El is how the people probably were first named.

They were named as people before a literal nation. At which time they were polytheistic and multicultural for the most part being from displaced Canaanites after the Bronze age collapse.

El was not Yahweh early on. The bible was redacted after king Josiahs reforms, during this redaction probably over political reasons so they could be exiled from, their Babylonian captors. All text was redacted to the one god concept.

Elohim takes a few ,pages to explain the details of such, showing all sides of all the debates and knowledge.