In the U.S., Christianity loses members while atheism grows. Why?

[Beaudreaux]

I never doubted or challenged your STATISTICS. They are everywhere to be found online. In fact, I included in my post similar statistics from other sources.

What I said was that the author of the article quoted (you) can hardly be called objective or unbiased as to the reasons WHY Christianity has taken a slight dip in percentage of the US population.

There is not a person on this planet who can be objective or unbiased as to the reasons WHY Christianity is shrinking and atheism growing.

I stand by that assertion.

Well, for someone who calls Christians to live the beatitudes...you're not very meek.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Hi Kathryn.

Could you tell me why the more secular a people are, the better society they have created/live in? The more religion controlls education, hospitals, research, tne more backwards they become. We Americans are famous for our backwards schools 'teaching' Creationism instead of facts whiles Europeans, Australians, Kiwis and Japanese are sitting there with generally a education related to reality.

Why are these societies that accept reality better off then superstitious societies like the U.S, Iraq or Iran? Do you have explanation for this?

Yeah, this hits a nerve with me. I have a good friend who teaches middle school science electives. He is also pursuing a graduate degree in biology. I asked him if he was going to teach about evolution in one of his electives. He said he cannot use the word "Evolution" in school or he could get in trouble.

Are you friggin' kidding me???? From the article upon which this post is based:

Evolution was a groundbreaking discovery that enabled an unprecedented understanding of the natural world. It has been embraced by modern science for over 150 years. Its postulates have been confirmed by the discovery of genetics 30 years later and its basic tenets have remained largely unchanged since its publication in 1859. Not only have its principles been used to understand the natural world, but they have been used in other fields as well from economics to computer science with remarkable effect.

Yet in a school an hour away from Philadelphia, the word Evolution cannot be spoken in science classes. THANKS religion!

 

[Kathryn]

I'd like to see a source for the claim that an hour away from Philly a teacher can't say the word "evolution" in science class. Sounds a bit primordial to me.

 

[Copernicus]

What I said was that the author of the article quoted (you) can hardly be called objective or unbiased as to the reasons WHY Christianity has taken a slight dip in percentage of the US population.

Kathryn, you can hardly be called objective or unbiased on this subject either. So should we dismiss everything you have to say on the subject on the same grounds? You seemed to accept Beaudreax's statistics, yet you never actually addressed the merits of his claims.

 

[Kathryn]

I gave my opinion as to the causes of the drop in the percentage of Christians in the United States. I gave sources and additional information. However, the REASONS for the drop are open to speculation - from all fronts. I never claimed that the reasons I suggested are anything other than my own opinion.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I'd like to see a source for the claim that an hour away from Philly a teacher can't say the word "evolution" in science class. Sounds a bit primordial to me.

Yeah, that source is ME. My good friend is a teacher at the school and he says he is told not to say the word. I'm getting a little annoyed at your challenges of my veracity. When you say things I don't want to hear, I don't call YOU a liar.

 

[Kathryn]

I didn't call you a liar. I asked for a source outlining that it is illegal for your friend to use the word "evolution" while teaching a science class. What state does your friend teach in? I can look it up myself if you won't.

 

[Kathryn]

Here are some sources that I found interesting regarding the Pennsylvania Board of Education and legal rulings in PA concerning evolution. I'm assuming your friend teaches in PA, but 50 minutes away from Philly might conceivably be Maryland, New Jersey or Delaware - so if your friend isn't in PA, please let me know.

Here is the best site I have found - this sight, from the American Geological Institute, monitors any challenges nationwide to the presentation of evolution in school systems, and you can click on each state for an instant update. Great site!
American Geological Institute - Serving the Geosciences Since 1948

The first case is a case in which the Dover school district makes it MANDATORY that evolution is taught in the schools:
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The second article I found states that the Board of Education in PA REJECTED the attempt for creationism to be taught mandatorily in PA schools.
Pa. Board Of Education Rejects Effort To Open Door To Creationism In Public Schools. -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

More info about PA's stance on evolution and intelligent design. Nowhere is it states that teachers cannot or should not use the word "evolution." In fact, they explicitly DO use the term and teach evolution in their science classes - of course:
American Geological Institute - Serving the Geosciences Since 1948

 

[Sunstone]

The decline of Mainline Protestants, and the rise of Evangelicals and Roman Catholics, will probably cause greater changes in US politics and society than the rise of nontheists. The country turns more to superstition each day.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The decline of Mainline Protestants, and the rise of Evangelicals and Roman Catholics, will probably cause greater changes in US politics and society than the rise of nontheists. The country turns more to superstition each day.

A prophecy from a non-believer:

"It probably will not be long until the churches will divide as sharply upon political, as upon theological questions; and when that day comes, if there are not liberals enough to hold the balance of power, this Government will be destroyed."

- Robert G. Ingersoll

Something just occurred to me: do you think that the (IMO) increasing politicization of churches is a result of a feeling of individual disenfranchisement or frustration? People feel like their vote or voice doesn't matter as a mere individual citizen, so they look for some other way to get their voices heard... and see how effective organizations like the "Moral Majority" and its successors were at effecting political change and copy their example.

Maybe the decline in American Christian church membership is the tail end of this process: people are realizing that there's a disconnect between what their church represents theologically and its political reality.

If that's the cause, then maybe the thing to do would be electoral reform: let people have a voice in the political process without turning their church into a lobbying organization, and just let the churches be churches.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Or we are just getting better educated?
I do not know who of you who lived during the 50's but our educational system went good when we realized that out backwards schools did not teach our kids about basic science, such as evolution, and our evil enemies the Russians (then Soviet Union) where kicking our butts... Maybe we need a cold war to have proper education?

 

[Copernicus]

Or we are just getting better educated?
I do not know who of you who lived during the 50's but our educational system went good when we realized that out backwards schools did not teach our kids about basic science, such as evolution, and our evil enemies the Russians (then Soviet Union) where kicking our butts... Maybe we need a cold war to have proper education?

Sadly, your point has merit. I was a child in the 1050s, and I remember the changes that came about as a result of the success of the Russian space program. The government actually dumped lots of money into scholarships, grants, and student loans. You could take more advanced courses in high school. I even got to learn Russian in high school, and our new high school had its own planetarium. Since the demise of the Cold War, taxpayers and their elected officials have tended to pay a lot of lip service to quality education, but nobody seems to think it an urgent priority. So the educational system continues to languish in a sea of apathy.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Here are some sources that I found interesting regarding the Pennsylvania Board of Education and legal rulings in PA concerning evolution. I'm assuming your friend teaches in PA, but 50 minutes away from Philly might conceivably be Maryland, New Jersey or Delaware - so if your friend isn't in PA, please let me know.

Here is the best site I have found - this sight, from the American Geological Institute, monitors any challenges nationwide to the presentation of evolution in school systems, and you can click on each state for an instant update. Great site!
American Geological Institute - Serving the Geosciences Since 1948

The first case is a case in which the Dover school district makes it MANDATORY that evolution is taught in the schools:
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The second article I found states that the Board of Education in PA REJECTED the attempt for creationism to be taught mandatorily in PA schools.
Pa. Board Of Education Rejects Effort To Open Door To Creationism In Public Schools. -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

More info about PA's stance on evolution and intelligent design. Nowhere is it states that teachers cannot or should not use the word "evolution." In fact, they explicitly DO use the term and teach evolution in their science classes - of course:
American Geological Institute - Serving the Geosciences Since 1948

This would be most excellent source data if I claimed that my friend was told it was illegal for him to use the word "evolution." That is not what I said, nor is it the case. My friend was told by his principle not to say the word, the reason being that he did not want to generate complaints from parents. There is no source to be found to verify this other than my friend, whose name I will not give for obvious reaons, the principle, again whose name I will not give, and me. Come to think of it, I don't even give MY name.

So, that' where it is. If you do not believe that this incident is true, that's fine, but it does entail you calling me a liar since I am the one telling you that it is true.

 

[Beaudreaux]

The decline of Mainline Protestants, and the rise of Evangelicals and Roman Catholics, will probably cause greater changes in US politics and society than the rise of nontheists. The country turns more to superstition each day.

Not according to this survey. [Knock on wood]

 

[Kathryn]

This would be most excellent source data if I claimed that my friend was told it was illegal for him to use the word "evolution." That is not what I said, nor is it the case. My friend was told by his principle not to say the word, the reason being that he did not want to generate complaints from parents. There is no source to be found to verify this other than my friend, whose name I will not give for obvious reaons, the principle, again whose name I will not give, and me. Come to think of it, I don't even give MY name.

So, that' where it is. If you do not believe that this incident is true, that's fine, but it does entail you calling me a liar since I am the one telling you that it is true.

Beaudreaux,

Actually, what you said was this:

I have a good friend who teaches middle school science electives. He is also pursuing a graduate degree in biology. I asked him if he was going to teach about evolution in one of his electives. He said he cannot use the word "Evolution" in school or he could get in trouble.

[QUOTEYet in a school an hour away from Philadelphia, the word Evolution cannot be spoken in science classes. THANKS religion!][/QUOTE]

My good friend is a teacher at the school and he says he is told not to say the word.

Your most recent response is the first time you give the rather PERTINENT detail that your friend was told this simply by his principal. This information, which you didn't share with us till now, changes the slant of your anecdotal story quite a bit. Now we see that it's not illegal in whatever state or school district he's in (I'm assuming it's Pennsylvania, since you mentioned Philly, but you haven't verified that) - it's just one principal at one school telling this to a teacher. BIG DIFFERENCE in what was being implied in your earlier statements.

I would say that your friend could probably file a suit against this principal. I'm sure that the science textbooks use the word "evolution" so I am curious as to how he's supposed to teach the class and the curriculum (that is clearly mandated by the Pennsylvania Board of Education, as my sources show) WITHOUT using the word "evolution."

I never called you a liar, but if you want to avoid the discomfort of being misunderstood in the future, maybe you could give a little more detail on the front end, rather than using inflammatory insinuations to further your arguments. I mean, how difficult would it have been to say simply this on the front end of your story:

My friend was told by his principle not to say the word, the reason being that he did not want to generate complaints from parents.

But I understand that's not quite as sexy as saying,

in a school an hour away from Philadelphia, the word Evolution cannot be spoken in science classes.

Sounds like the principal is more out of line than the parents.

 

[gnomon]

We atheists have been handing out better coupons.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Oh, I see. You're not calling me a "liar". You're just saying that I left out a detail because I wanted my post to seem "sexier". Well, aren't you so cleverly "kind".

Kathryn, I NEVER said it was illegal. I never IMPLIED that it was illegal, and I strongly resent your accusation that I intentionally tried to mislead people. I related EXACTLY what my friend said to me in a genuine emotional response to a coment made by another poster. If that does not pass your test for what constitues a quality post here, I must say that I could not possibly care less. That you cannot see the effect of religion on the teaching of evolution in the classroom says more about you than it does about my post, and frankly I don't think there is any chance you will get that head of yours out of the sand to see things a different way.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We atheists have been handing out better coupons.

"Stay home Sundays, save 10%"

 

[zflash7]

U guys have your minds made up. If someone was to call fire down from heaven it would be explained away as a freak accident. Your designed allright. for destruction, and you dont even know it. Sucks to be you AFTER...
Give me Jesus or give me death. FTW

 

[fantome profane]

I was a child in the 1050s

Wow, you are old!