• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Income Inequality.

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
They had Black Lives Matter and Defund the Police written in large letters in the middle of the street in DC
To accomplish something like that required power! To suggest that it was not power because it has now been removed makes no more sense than to claim the Ku Klux Klan never had any power in this country because the policies and beliefs they had back then are vilified today.

I would say that there are different levels of power, both hard and soft power, as well as overt and subtle power. Or it might be official versus unofficial power. The mainstream media have soft power to influence public opinion, which can then translate into hard power at the ballot box. It's the age-old battle for "hearts and minds," or as the old adage goes, "the pen is mightier the sword" (but only in places where there isn't widespread illiteracy).
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
They had Black Lives Matter and Defund the Police written in large letters in the middle of the street in DC
To accomplish something like that required power! To suggest that it was not power because it has now been removed makes no more sense than to claim the Ku Klux Klan never had any power in this country because the policies and beliefs they had back then are vilified today.
You have a very confused understanding of power. Activism painting a street or throwing paint at paintings are NOT examples of power any more than Hong Kong Pro Democracy Activists against China. To have power is to have the ability to significantly and measurably change the structures and outcomes and policies of a society or a nation in the direction one wants.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I would say that there are different levels of power, both hard and soft power, as well as overt and subtle power. Or it might be official versus unofficial power. The mainstream media have soft power to influence public opinion, which can then translate into hard power at the ballot box. It's the age-old battle for "hearts and minds," or as the old adage goes, "the pen is mightier the sword" (but only in places where there isn't widespread illiteracy).
True. Media does have power. That is why they have all been bought by rich people or the govt.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
What do you mean by 'agree'?
Do I automatically agree with whatever the ongoing situation is if I keep working on a certain job and there is no coercion going on?

Agree means you are happy with the situation or at least not unhappy with it.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Agree means you are happy with the situation or at least not unhappy with it.
Or at least not so unhappy with it that you start actively opposing it.
That is what most governments rely upon: the phlegmatic mindset of the constituency.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Or at least not so unhappy with it that you start actively opposing it.
That is what most governments rely upon: the phlegmatic mindset of the constituency.

Sure, if you can convince a slave they are better off being a slave then they are not going to feel oppressed.
If you can convince a rich man they ought to keep all of their wealth for themselves, then they are going to feel oppressed by taxes.

So oppression is in the eye of the beholder. Even you as the bystander pointing out the oppression of a third party.

The word oppression itself is more a description of a POV.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How do we determine if someone is being exploited? I consider this to be central to this matter.
Good question. People define the word differently. I would say that if institutionalized or normalized bigotries unfairly limit your economic opportunities while enriching others greatly, you are being exploited. Others would say that anybody who generates more for the company than they receive from it - the usual reason people are hired and paid what they are - is exploited. I think Marx would.
I lived in Compton California (before the Mexicans took over)
When? I graduated from Inglewood High in 1970, also a little rough neighborhood. I spend a lot of time at the poker clubs in Gardena, also a seedy area. Didn't get to El Segundo or Compton much, but spent time in Watts. I live in Mexico now. They've completely taken over here.
If I own a small business and I can afford to pay someone money to scrub my toilets and sweep my floors, but I cannot afford to pay them 10% more and give them health insurance as well, according to your idea, I should not be allowed to employ them because I am shifting that 10% costs on to the tax payer; right? I say it is still good to pay someone who is currently getting 100% support from the tax payer to do my job because though they are still being supported by the tax payer, I would rather see their support reduced to 10% rather than no reduction at all
Some would say that a business that doesn't generate enough revenue to pay its full-time staff a living wage such that they are taxpayers rather than tax consumers shouldn't be publicly supported, but rather, should be allowed to fail.

Those that choose to do this not just to survive but rather to improve profits - the Walmarts and Starbucks - should be forced to spend more through taxation that covers those public expenses and ensures they pay a proportionate share for access to the commonwealth's infrastructure and markets. But that's not relevant to your situation. You say that you can't keep your doors open if you pay your workers a living wage. I understand why you want the public support, but you can understand why others prefer that somebody else try to make that location and the business in it more profitable for whoever owns it.
Making a living by exploiting others economically is not a legitimate way to make a living.
Agreed.
It has nothing to do with moving any goal posts. The goal was always the same: the best results for the most people.
I referred to the goal of the person going into business, which is usually to own a profitable business. You shifted the perspective to that of the philosopher. That's utilitarianism, which is the humanist view of the optimal society, and applies to greatest economic opportunity as well as the greatest social opportunity for the greatest number. But we don't expect shopkeepers to be philosophers or architects of societies. Their self-interest - making money - is assumed. Likewise with employees and customers, whose self-interests are earning more (they like raises) and spending less (and sales) respectively.
It doesn't matter what your purpose was.
It does if it falsifies your claim. You said that exploitation was the purpose of engaging in commerce. I answered that it wasn't mine. That makes your claim wrong. I told you what my purpose was, but it didn't comport with your evil capitalism trope, so you tried to dismiss it away with that comment.

You remind me of the religious pessimists who see life as suffering and the world as a terrible place. They only see the bad. They're trained to. The Jehovah's Witnesses who knock at my door are that way. When I tell them that I'm happy, they dismiss it like you did when I contradicted you with examples of the benefit and power of the profit incentive from my own life in me and an employee. You didn't like that, either - not because it was inappropriate as you implied, but because it contradicted you and falsified your claim: "Stop using yourself as the yardstick for everyone else's capabilities and desires."
capitalism is a rigged system that rewards the wealthy and powerful with more of both.
That's unregulated (or insufficiently regulated) capitalism, your straw man. In a healthy political climate, that can be managed as it is in the Western European democracies. America has lobbying.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Yes, I know this will shock you, but the purpose of people trading goods and services with each other is that in doing so they increase their collective well-being and quality of life.
Ahhh….So rather than answer my question, you tell me a bunch of obvious stuff I already know? Let me put it this way; if you say 100%, that’s impossible no business enterprise can do that; if you say a reasonable percentage, an argument can be made that they already do that; and for those few that don’t aren’t in business for very long.
That's called "exploitation". We exploit their poverty to force them to buy cheap, crappy products and services while we who already have far more than they do get even richer. And the wealth disparity continues to widen. While their suffering continues to increase so we can be even more fat and comfortable.
First of all; what you are calling “exploitation” is completely subjective. What YOU call exploitation, someone else might call a unique opportunity.
Second, you seem to believe all business owners are rich, successful and if they sell cheap and crappy products, it’s because they want to make even more money that they could if the did business in a honorable way. This is unrealistic thinking. Many business sell cheap and crappy products because that is all they can afford to sell; the fact that 50% of business fail within the first 5 years proves all business owners are not rich and successful.
But the capitalists erase and subvert those laws at every turn because they have the money and power to it,
If that were true, they would have prevented those laws from being on the books in the first place.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
If it wasn't a slum nor an area where cops were afraid to drive around then it was neither high crime nor financially oppressed.
Sounds like what you are trying to describe is more of an east coast thing with the project housing common in those areas, my experience is on the west coast in neighborhoods that used to be good but became bad when good people moved out when bad people began move in. If cops were afraid to enter such neighborhoods, half the stuff gangsta rappers said about the cops wouldn't have been said because criminals would be free to act on their own
1) You didn't bring up, once again, any statistics.
I never claimed statistics, I claimed common sense and real life experience.
2) You didn't address my point on how the government took away the power from the poor to settle their issues by themselves.
When the territory of California became a State, Vigilantism became outlawed. But that has never stopped outlaws from resorting to Vigilantism, gang-banging, drive-by shootings and other such crimes are common in these areas.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Come on, please.
Writting stuff on the street is power? Really?
What do you call the capacity to enact legislative changes that influence the livelihood of millions of people then?
That's power also! Black Lives Matter had the power to do so, but their lack of leadership prevented them from coming up with ideas that warrant seriousness. But the fact that the idea of getting rid of the police was actually taken seriously for a while rather than getting dismissed immediately as it should have been, proves they had much power. Now imagine what they could have done had they had leadership with the common sense of a billy goat?
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
You have a very confused understanding of power. Activism painting a street or throwing paint at paintings are NOT examples of power
Activist throwing paint at a painting and running away before the cops show up is not in the same stratosphere as activists painting a street and the police allowing it to happen.
To have power is to have the ability to significantly and measurably change the structures and outcomes and policies of a society or a nation in the direction one wants.
Just because you have power does not mean you have the wisdom to demand issues resulting in permanent change. They did change the structures and policies of the nation for a short period of time; until common sense reared its head forcing their ideas to be dismissed. But the fact that BLM was taken seriously for the time that it was proves they were powerful during that time.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think adjusting the percentage based on the tax bracket is generally a good approach, since the person earning a million will be left with $750,000 of income after tax, while the one earning $2,000 will be left with $1,500. The percentage is the same, but the impact is significantly harder on the lower-income bracket.
ANY expense on lower incomes will be significantly more impactful then on higher incomes.

A bread of 5 bucks will be more of a bite in the budget of the one who's left with 1500 then the one with 750k.

This is where things like "minimum wages" etc come in and become important imo.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
When? I graduated from Inglewood High in 1970, also a little rough neighborhood. I spend a lot of time at the poker clubs in Gardena, also a seedy area. Didn't get to El Segundo or Compton much, but spent time in Watts. I live in Mexico now. They've completely taken over here.
Yeah; I lived off of Rosecrans ave. Some of my family still live in the LA area tell me every since the blacks got run out of Compton, most live in Inglewood now; but that was years ago, they probably got run outta Inglewood by now. If Eazy-E were still alive today, I doubt he would still be wearing his Compton Hat (LOL)eazy-e photos - Yahoo Image Search Results
Some would say that a business that doesn't generate enough revenue to pay its full-time staff a living wage such that they are taxpayers rather than tax consumers shouldn't be publicly supported, but rather, should be allowed to fail.
I doubt many of these low wage paying jobs are actually full time; Walmart, fast-food type jobs are usually part time and only full time for those in supervisor positions; which may get paid a little more.
Those that choose to do this not just to survive but rather to improve profits - the Walmarts and Starbucks - should be forced to spend more through taxation that covers those public expenses and ensures they pay a proportionate share for access to the commonwealth's infrastructure and markets. But that's not relevant to your situation. You say that you can't keep your doors open if you pay your workers a living wage. I understand why you want the public support, but you can understand why others prefer that somebody else try to make that location and the business in it more profitable for whoever owns it.
I can understand your point; and I think a good argument can be made either way.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
You are going to have to explain that to me.
Flat tax is when everybody regardless of income pay the same percentage of taxes, IOW the rich pay the same percentage of their income as the poor; rather than the system we have now where the bottom 50% pays no taxes at all. Obviously the poor don't like this idea.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Flat tax is when everybody regardless of income pay the same percentage of taxes, IOW the rich pay the same percentage of their income as the poor; rather than the system we have now where the bottom 50% pays no taxes at all. Obviously the poor don't like this idea.
The rich don't like it either as their tax rate in the US is usually lower than that of middle class people.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
The rich don't like it either as their tax rate in the US is usually lower than that of middle class people.
No; income taxes are progressive; the higher your income, the larger percentage of taxes you will pay.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
No; income taxes are progressive; the higher your income, the larger percentage of taxes you will pay.
In theory and as long as you have only wage income. Income from not working (i.e. dividends) is taxed at lower rates. E.g. Warren Buffet pays a lower tax rate than his secretary, as he himself said.
 
Top