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INDISPUTABLE Rational Proof That God Exists (Or Existed)

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Regarding biology, why should anyone pay any attention to a dabbler like you instead of the about 99.86% of experts who accept macro evolution, which includes the majority of Christian experts?
The only reason I deal with al these repeats and subjects I do not much care about is I like you. Why are you doing everything you can to destroy that. You have been getting more and more personal and sarcastic. I do not recommend it.

You have refused to debate experts. That means that your objections to macro evolution are based primarily on faith, which would quickly be proven if you debated some experts at Physics Forums. Your refusal to debate experts also means that you are bluffing since you know that all of your opponents at this forum are amateurs.
You only bluff when all you care about is winning? What am I bluffing about anyway. I debate during down time at work which means it is impractical to engage in formal debates nor do I have the slightest obligation to do so. Think what you wish, I do not care.

I have asked a number of creationists at this website, and at another website, to critique in detail Ken Miller's article on the flagellum, intelligent design, and irreducible complexity at The Flagellum Unspun, but all of them refused to do so. No one who does not adequately understand that article is in a position to claim that all of macro evolution has problems. In the opinions of most experts, in that article, Miller provided overwhelming evidence that intelligent design, and irreducible complexity, have far more serious problems than macro evolution has.
That is actually an easy one and one I have done at least twice and once with you. If you can't find it I can easily dismiss what that argument claims.

As the Christian, Republican judge at the Dover trial said, creationism is not science. According to the vast majority of experts, science cannot show that creationism is probably true, but it can show that macro evolution, whether theistic, or naturalistic, is probably true.
Creationism exists in many forms, none are exactly science but that has nothing to do with whether they are true, nor is a judge qualified to know either way. I made no specific creation claims. What are you arguing against?

Only a relative handful of experts accept creationism, and a lot of them also accept the global flood theory, and/or the young earth theory, which means that they are not able to conduct object scientific research.
Which version? The only thing I am committed to is the impossibility of life arising on it's own.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
In "The Quantum and the Lotus", he poses a problem with believing there's a uncaused creator-god that supposedly created our universe/multiverse. One point is that how can some entity actually create without changing itself? For example, before a painter paints, (s)he must decide to do so, gather up the materials, and go through the motion of painting, all of which involves action that intrinsically are change. If there's no change whatsoever, no action can result. Therefore, any creator-god must change at least a bit in order to create.
So true. I've thought about this a long time ago and tried many times to bring this issue up with apologists, but to no avail. At what time did God first thinking and planning the Universe? It must've been before the "First Cause". Why did he even start thinking about creating a Universe? Was those thoughts the true first cause(s)?

But then that leads to another problem, and that is that what would make this creator-god change? IOW, at some point the creator-god would have to be swayed by some outside influence(s) whereas he makes a decision. But that becomes a problem if this creator-god actually originally made all that's "outside" in the first place. Einstein focused in on this problem when he stated how can God not know what He created, and how could there be such a thing as "free will" if God literally created ever single thing?
Also so true.

(I think I need to get those books.)
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Well that is a very human-like response.
I would hope so being a human and all.
We fear death, we fear pain and we fear suffering. So we need assurance. We are also taught that we can't rely on our fellow man (usually through stories and less so actual experience), and so we turn to God, because with God (real or not), you have a being that exemplifies perfection, makes you feel comforted, and makes you feel love. A being that is essentially your ally and everyone elses enemy.
Where are you getting this fear stuff from? Fear had virtually nothing to do with my experiences with Christ or my faith. If you knew the slightest thing about me you would know fear and especially what crowds do have nothing to do with much of anything I do. Even before I was a Christian I would go the opposite direction of anything the sheeple would do. I am not sure what your talking about.

Even if God did not exist the alternative seems too frightening for people (The idea that there is nothing out there but just other people who are just like you, seemingly weak, and without power), and so they will believe in God, because it is assurance. The curse of the Frontal Lobe: That all this thinking, waxing and waning philosophically means nothing.
I came to God after hating him and resenting him even if he did exist and it had nothing to do with fear or popular opinion. I faced death as a Veteran and felt no more willing to adopt faith at that time. Your going to have to at least illustrate why you mistakenly think this before I know how to respond.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
I would hope so being a human and all. Where are you getting this fear stuff from? Fear had virtually nothing to do with my experiences with Christ or my faith. If you knew the slightest thing about me you would know fear and especially what crowds do have nothing to do with much of anything I do. Even before I was a Christian I would go the opposite direction of anything the sheeple would do. I am not sure what your talking about.

I came to God after hating him and resenting him even if he did exist and it had nothing to do with fear or popular opinion. I faced death as a Veteran and felt no more willing to adopt faith at that time. Your going to have to at least illustrate why you mistakenly think this before I know how to respond.


The fear is a different one. It's not that same type of "I'm going to die" type of fear, it's the "I will no longer exist" type of fear. That fear of the unknown. No idea why you hated God, I think that's rather silly especially if one is an atheist (considering you wouldn't believe God to even consider hating God in the first place)

But the fear that I mentioned...it Doesn't matter who you are, short of suffering from massive depression, or having some assurance that there is mroe (as you mentioned beyond the natural), every human has that fear. It is in my opinion the curse of having a frontal lobe.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Obviously you didn't look up "speciation", which gives examples and also links to studies, so here's a link: Speciation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think I used the site you gave the link to or at least used the words you said o search for. Anyway I found this new site.

New species have been created by domesticated animal husbandry, but the initial dates and methods of the initiation of such species are not clear. For example, domestic sheep were created by hybridisation, and no longer produce viable offspring with Ovis orientalis, one species from which they are descended.[23] Domestic cattle, on the other hand, can be considered the same species as several varieties of wild ox, gaur, yak, etc., as they readily produce fertile offspring with them.[24]
The best-documented creations of new species in the laboratory were performed in the late 1980s. William Rice and G.W. Salt bred fruit flies, Drosophila melanogaster, using a maze with three different choices of habitat such as light/dark and wet/dry. Each generation was placed into the maze, and the groups of flies that came out of two of the eight exits were set apart to breed with each other in their respective groups. After thirty-five generations, the two groups and their offspring were isolated reproductively because of their strong habitat preferences: they mated only within the areas they preferred, and so did not mate with flies that preferred the other areas.[25] The history of such attempts is described in Rice and Hostert (1993).

First we have a claim to new species evolution which was forced on nature by intentionality and intelligence which did not exist when all the former examples were to have occurred.
Then we have sheep created from other sheep (which were infertile).
Then we have cattle created from cattle.
Then flies created from flies.

Maybe we had a misfire on terminology and that is probably my fault because I find evolution boring and am careless about semantics. Evolution claims that a single cell or the like eventually created the most complex arrangement in the known universe (our brain). I said that may be true but is based in faith. Even if I used the wrong terminology we should both be interested in what actually occurred not what arbitrary labels scientists slap on thing. I do not care what label would wish to use I wanted to see a dog become a non-dog, a fish become a non fish, a bird become a non-bird. I do not think fly's becoming other fly's is proof. I realize that you can't do this because the changes occur over longer periods than can be observed in most cases. However unless it is observed it is a matter of reasoned faith nor proof.



Then what caused God? I have to return back to that because there's really no way of getting around it even if one says God is "spirit" that can't be detected through the senses. Well, if God can't be detected through the senses, then exactly how does one even determine that God even exists? And how do you supposedly know there's only one God?
Did I not already answer this first cause argument twice just today? It is hard to believe that this very bad argument was used three times in one day. There is no such thing as an infinite regression of causation. If there was we would not have a thing to be caused. There must be a single uncaused first cause no matter what that might be. It must be. We are either bi or tri modal beings and can relate to spiritual beings (accordion to the Bible) but even if we could not we can posit God just like the wind. By it's effects. I have experienced God spiritually but that event also caused physical changes of a character which no words exist to sufficiently describe. One God is a faith judgments based on the accuracy of what can be verified which is the same procedure involved in all legal and historical claims of every type. Why is what is good for science, law, and history all of a sudden not good for God. We posit many things we can't directly verify through sense or anything else.

Now, I am not saying or implying there is no God or Gods, just that I am not certain there is either.
That is a reasonable stance. There must be an uncaused first cause God or not, but nothing in nature fits that is now known.


You cannot logically offer any evidence whatsoever that there's no such thing as "infinity".
Oh yes I can. I have a math degree and am very familiar with infinity.


In order to do that, you would have to go back into infinity to prove that there's no infinity, which is an oxymoron. And to find evidence that there was a point whereas no matter or energy of any type exists, again you'd have to go back to infinity or the "beginning" of everything, and you can't logically do that either.
There is no such thing as a known actual infinite. It is almost always a boundary or asymptotic condition in math as in relativity. It is what you can't ever get to in actuality. The one hold out was always space but both big bang cosmology and relativity destroyed that notion. You can easily find or I can post what happens to any reality that has infinity imposed on it but that is not even necessary here. The most accepted cosmological model posits a single finite universe. So does God. If you get wish to believe in a natural reality that is infinite and had no beginning then you do so in-spite of science and based on irrationality and fantasy. Why only when science makes a God look very likely is the best information denied in favor of the worst or none at all. You are betting everything you have on impossible actual infinities, the best cosmology available, life coming from non-life, and creation from nothing which there is not a single example known to exist. Why? It seems science is malleable substance that can be stretched over preferred theological desire. God has unlimited creative potential as a concept yet is denied and natural law which has no creative potential is assumed. I just do not get it.


You do not know that but only believe that, and there's a difference between "know" and "believe".
Let me put it a different way. Natural law has no known potential to create. Actually let me back up. An actual infinity is an impossibility and non existence has no creative potential so yes I do know that. However lets pretend it is not known. Every thing we actually do know suggests it. My faith is consistent with what is known yours is in-spite of what is known.




I have no problem when one says "I believe in God...", or even if one says "I believe in the Gods...". Just because I'm unsure doesn't mean that I think everyone else has to be. Most of my family and my friends are theists, and not only don't I have a problem with what they believe, we attend each others religious functions. And, believe it or not, we never argue religion-- discuss, yes; argue, no.
I do not recall judging you. I do judge ideas and rationales but I completely sympathize with agnosticism.

hat I would like to do is to offer up an idea put forth by the Buddhist monk Matthieu Ricard, and I hope to get to it a bit later as I have some other things to do right now.

Take care.
Buddhist as you wish. There is wisdom that exists outside my faith's texts and I am interested. Take care your self.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
The fear is a different one. It's not that same type of "I'm going to die" type of fear, it's the "I will no longer exist" type of fear. That fear of the unknown. No idea why you hated God, I think that's rather silly especially if one is an atheist (considering you wouldn't believe God to even consider hating God in the first place)
I say this because I like you. It is a dreadful error to suggest to know the motivations for another persons positive claims. Negative ones possibly but not positive ones. I am the world's best expert on why I have faith. Fear had no role in gaining it though fear I had no idea I had was removed by the experience. Telling someone who knows what he claims why he claims it has the greatest potentiality to backfire on you and ruin credibility.

My mother was the only Christian in my family though we had a kind of intellectual agreement with it and went to church. She got cancer and suffered terribly for five years. The sicker she got the madder I got. I finally determined God didn't exist or if he did I hated him. He was not impressed apparently and put me in the company with the very rare type of Christians that are obedient and I could not deny what I saw over the course of a few years. I reluctantly decided to settle the matter and determined to disprove the Bible. As happens in many cases like that it backfired. I got 90% of the way to faith by effort but the last ten percent was all supernatural. I will clarify a bit. The realization that there was a God was the only source of fear I remember. The commanding officer does not inspire fear until you are sitting in front of him and you can't sit in front of him unless he exists. I can't explain the rest but suffice it to say I spent the next 20 years daily evaluating that event. It came with objective events that could not have been self created and before I had ever heard the term I felt like I was born again and brand new in ways I can't convey. I will not bore you further but fear was not even present until I believed but was soon dispelled completely and replaced by a greater feeling of love than I thought possible.

But the fear that I mentioned...it Doesn't matter who you are, short of suffering from massive depression, or having some assurance that there is mroe (as you mentioned beyond the natural), every human has that fear. It is in my opinion the curse of having a frontal lobe.
I did not say fear was not present nor depression, etc.. I said it was not perceived nor a motivation. I set out to prove God did not exist not death or fear. However this is a genetic fallacy anyway. Even if fear leads you to take the parachute, it would not make the parachute work if it was not real. This would take a long time to examine and is complex and composed mostly of stuff I have not the words for nor you have any access to. I have examined my experiences by the most critical methods possible and their is no denying what occurred. Not to mention it met a description in detail I was unaware of at the time and is shared by billions.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
The only reason I deal with al these repeats and subjects I do not much care about is I like you. Why are you doing everything you can to destroy that. You have been getting more and more personal and sarcastic. I do not recommend it.

I am not personal and sarcastic at all, I merely asked you why anyone should pay any attention to a dabbler in biology.

1robin said:
What am I bluffing about anyway?

You are obviously bluffing when you refuse to defend your claims against experts since you know that if you did, it would quickly become obvious that you do not know enough about biology to defend you claim that all of macro evolution has problems.

Why would any skeptic amateur need to defeat you in a debate about macro evolution when many thousands of skeptic, and Christian experts could easily do that?

I would be willing to defend my secular claims about homosexuality with any expert of your choosing. Why aren't you willing to defend your claims about macro evolution with experts?
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
The only reason I deal with al these repeats and subjects I do not much care about is I like you. Why are you doing everything you can to destroy that. You have been getting more and more personal and sarcastic. I do not recommend it.

I am not personal and sarcastic at all, I merely asked you why anyone should pay any attention to a dabbler in biology.

1robin said:
What am I bluffing about anyway?

You are obviously bluffing when you refuse to defend your claims against experts since you know that if you did, it would quickly become obvious that you do not know enough about biology to defend you claim that all of macro evolution has problems.

Why would any skeptic amateur need to defeat you in a debate about macro evolution when many thousands of skeptic, and Christian experts could easily do that?

I would be willing to defend my secular claims about homosexuality with any expert of your choosing. Why aren't you willing to defend your claims about macro evolution with experts?
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
The only thing I am committed to is the impossibility of life arising on it's own.

If that is true, I doubt that you would have spent so much of your time trying to create doubt about macro evolution, especially since most experts say that there is overwhelming evidence that it is true. There is little doubt that you do not like macro evolution partly because atheists accept it.

You have wasted months of your time debating science since science could not reasonably prove that God exists even if a God exists.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
I say this because I like you. It is a dreadful error to suggest to know the motivations for another persons positive claims. Negative ones possibly but not positive ones. I am the world's best expert on why I have faith. Fear had no role in gaining it though fear I had no idea I had was removed by the experience. Telling someone who knows what he claims why he claims it has the greatest potentiality to backfire on you and ruin credibility.

My mother was the only Christian in my family though we had a kind of intellectual agreement with it and went to church. She got cancer and suffered terribly for five years. The sicker she got the madder I got. I finally determined God didn't exist or if he did I hated him. He was not impressed apparently and put me in the company with the very rare type of Christians that are obedient and I could not deny what I saw over the course of a few years. I reluctantly decided to settle the matter and determined to disprove the Bible. As happens in many cases like that it backfired. I got 90% of the way to faith by effort but the last ten percent was all supernatural. I will clarify a bit. The realization that there was a God was the only source of fear I remember. The commanding officer does not inspire fear until you are sitting in front of him and you can't sit in front of him unless he exists. I can't explain the rest but suffice it to say I spent the next 20 years daily evaluating that event. It came with objective events that could not have been self created and before I had ever heard the term I felt like I was born again and brand new in ways I can't convey. I will not bore you further but fear was not even present until I believed but was soon dispelled completely and replaced by a greater feeling of love than I thought possible.

I did not say fear was not present nor depression, etc.. I said it was not perceived nor a motivation. I set out to prove God did not exist not death or fear. However this is a genetic fallacy anyway. Even if fear leads you to take the parachute, it would not make the parachute work if it was not real. This would take a long time to examine and is complex and composed mostly of stuff I have not the words for nor you have any access to. I have examined my experiences by the most critical methods possible and their is no denying what occurred. Not to mention it met a description in detail I was unaware of at the time and is shared by billions.

Well you are assuming I was talking to you, the response was a generic one about part of human nature. You will be hardpress to find a human who does not fear not-existing and usually when you do, it's usually someone who is vastly depressed.

However the wording and framing you used in some of your posts regarding the issue can be misconstrued (since that is not your apparent intent), to indicate fear of some sort. I.e. the one who sides with someone because they know they can't defeat them.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
If that is true, I doubt that you would have spent so much of your time trying to create doubt about macro evolution, especially since most experts say that there is overwhelming evidence that it is true. There is little doubt that you do not like macro evolution partly because atheists accept it.

You have wasted months of your time debating science since science could not reasonably prove that God exists even if a God exists.
He appearing unto you would be quite reasonable evidence.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
First we have a claim to new species evolution which was forced on nature by intentionality and intelligence which did not exist when all the former examples were to have occurred...

Gonna be brief again as I'm spending too much time on this.

Experiments done at Wayne State University, which is where I did my graduate work, were dealing with fruit flies, and there simply does not have to be a selection process on the basis of homogeneity for new species to emerge. If it is done randomly with small but heterogenous groups, a news species will eventually emerge within about 10 years or so, but if the groups are selected to be more homogenous, the process on the average takes about half the time. The point is, it happens even without any artificial selection other than keeping the groups small so as to speed up the process.

Evolution claims that a single cell or the like eventually created the most complex arrangement in the known universe (our brain).

That is not "evolution", but only a hypothesis that many scientists have.

I do not care what label would wish to use I wanted to see a dog become a non-dog, a fish become a non fish, a bird become a non-bird. I do not think fly's becoming other fly's is proof.

How about a group of lesser primates that eventually, in a zig-zag kind of way, became you and I? To picture what we know about the process, imagine a tree, and as one goes up the tree, many different branches appear. Now, we don't know if that tree originally had a single trunk or not, nor do we know if other trees were eventually crowded out, but we know the process in general did happen.


There is no such thing as an infinite regression of causation. If there was we would not have a thing to be caused. There must be a single uncaused first cause no matter what that might be. It must be.

There is absolutely no way one could possibly know that. A guess, yes; but there's simply no evidence to suggest as such.

One God is a faith judgments based on the accuracy of what can be verified which is the same procedure involved in all legal and historical claims of every type. Why is what is good for science, law, and history all of a sudden not good for God. We posit many things we can't directly verify through sense or anything else.

And how does one exactly know then if one's imagination is just involved? We humans are really good at imagining things, which is sometimes good but sometimes bad.

There is no such thing as a known actual infinite.

How could you possibly know that?

God has unlimited creative potential as a concept yet is denied and natural law which has no creative potential is assumed. I just do not get it.

How could you possibly know that natural law cannot "create" through changes that occur all the time, assuming that there was always something there to begin with, which is certainly not a slam-dunk? This is why I keep my options open.


I do not recall judging you. I do judge ideas and rationales but I completely sympathize with agnosticism.

I don't recall that I said you did judge me.

Buddhist as you wish. There is wisdom that exists outside my faith's texts and I am interested. Take care your self.

Thank you, and...

Shalom & Namaste
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
He gave actual examples of what you claim does not occur. Did you read the whole paper?

I have. Here is my critique that I promised when you and I last dicussed the subject some while back. I believe it to be a fair appraisal and I've given him credit where I think it is due, but it has to be said that no court of law would give serious weight to Greenleaf's arguments nowadays, never mind find for the conclusion that he does, for a supernatural being, as another contributor has rightly pointed out.


The Testimony of the Evangelists seems to be nothing more than an argument for believers. Simon Greenleaf is supposedly presenting his paper based on judicial rules of evidence, which on the face of it is a noble exercise. But as we will see he frequently deviates from his task to engage in metaphysics or to expound his doctrinal beliefs from faith, he utters unsupported assertions as if they were fact and resorts to special pleas and arguments from authority. He is quick to pick up on fallacies and yet flounders on some of his own making. I have identified those indiscretions where I come across them.
1
I’ll begin by allowing that (in my view) the documents may have been entirely free of intended fakery or deception in the way of complicity. But nevertheless we’ll still consider the copies of copies, or the “multiplication of copies,” as Dr Greenleaf puts it, as there may be cause for doubt in that area. For by his raising the matter Greenleaf himself clearly considers it a reasonable objection. He defends the point by saying “If it be objected that the originals are lost, and that copies alone are now produced, the principles of the municipal law here also afford a satisfactory answer. He then goes on to assume that lost copies would be faithfully and accurately reproduced, and he bases that assumption on the “Christian community” that “must be conversant” with their own affairs. But if the originals are lost then how could it be known that they were faithfully and accurately reproduced? And the “affairs” with which Christian community is assumed to be conversant would, in that situation, no longer be a testimony as a witness statement but information received from others that may not be entirely accurate or recorded verbatim. So by any standard it is a remarkably presumptuous statement to make when he says that the copies are “entitled to an extraordinary degree of confidence” and that it is “not necessary that they should be confirmed and sanctioned by the ordinary tests of truth.” Really! Why? That is nothing if not a special plea, especially as an “authentic document” does not mean it is necessarily true or accurate. To quote Richard Packham: “All authorities on the rules of evidence emphasize that authenticating a document does not guarantee the truthfulness or accuracy of its contents. “Authentication merely shows where the document came from and when it was created.” So on that account Greenleaf’s reply is not a “satisfactory answer” since it conflates authenticity with faithful and accurate transcription, and given those points together with the timescale and the subject matter itself we may allow very reasonable grounds for doubt in that respect.

2
Dr Greenleaf says that the annals of warfare give few examples of such heroic consistency, patience and courage. We are being asked to accept that this was special, greater, more extreme or in someway distinct from all other examples of human zeal and fortitude. Throughout history men and women have suffered terrible privations, torture, and death for their beliefs, whether religious, political or simply to defend the principle of freedom. Greenleaf’s protestations concerning one special interest group carry no more weight than can be allowed for any other. There is nothing that distinguishes the Evangelists’ passion and commitment over and above that of any other groups who would have suffered, and died even, for their faith in gods or their ideological beliefs. He tells us “Where there is no motive or incentive for dishonesty, men are presumed to be honest.” And I agree, for I do not assume to question their moral rectitude. The motive here is not necessarily to be seen in terms of dishonesty, a point I will explore later in the discussion. Greenleaf’s argument is a subtle one. He is only too aware that he cannot make a case for a supernatural event by directing us to examples and making comparisons with everyday facts. He has only the Testimonies, written words, and his method is to introduce the spectre of “falsehood” and blatant dishonesty: “Had these men been evil,” and “…had they one shred of evidence that they were teaching a gross falsehood…” So Greenleaf will proceed to show that accusations of misdeeds or complicity are unfounded and that the Testimonies are therefore to be viewed as credible documents. We are then expected to make a connection between the integrity of the documents and the import that implies truth and accuracy in the subject matter. But we are not led to such a conclusion. He says: “In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false but whether there is sufficient probability that it is true.” Indeed, and I agree. But there is no ‘oral testimony’; there is only documentary evidence and the trial of fact in this case allows no opportunity to orally cross-examine the witnesses in person. And once again Greenleaf steers the matter of “probability” away from the question of the documents’ accuracy towards the Evangelists’ personal integrity, as if to insist that the latter guarantees the former condition, which of course it does not.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
Continuation
3
Still in the same vein, Greenleaf asks: “Would men invent such teaching.” From Greenleaf’s own arguments there is every reason to think the men’s beliefs were profound and genuine, and that those beliefs were in accordance with a pre-existing doctrine. So it isn’t a matter of their belief that needs to be questioned, but the means by which they conveyed it into the transcription, for they would incorporate in the documents what they earnestly and profoundly believed to be the truth. What can be said with near certainty is that first and foremost the men presented evidence of their faith; but whether the events described could be counted as factual, given that they were wholly unnatural occurrences, which were only supported by documents, is addressed by asking: Why, if in everyday life, we would not accept testimonies alone as incontrovertible evidence for alleged supernatural events then why must we allow a special exception in this particular case? Greenleaf rejects any possible objection with a prejudice that elsewhere he asks sceptics to put aside in the search for the truth: “the death of Jesus and his subsequent resurrection are true and incapable of refutation” (quotes Paley). And surely such an absolute assertion is utterly inconsistent with the rules of evidence? And then there is this: “But it is impossible to read their writings and feel that we are not conversant with men eminently holy, and of tender consciences, with men acting under an abiding sense of the presence and omniscience of God.” (The underscoring is mine) These are opinions and not examples of a disinterested, forensic analysis. It is not for Greenleaf to direct the reader to consider his personal and subjective notion of feelings as evidence; he is presuming to lead or influence the reader with his own opinions or religious calling.

4

And still on the question of “facts” Greenleaf says: “The proof that God has revealed himself to man by special and express communications, and that Christianity constitutes that revelation, is no part of these inquiries.” So he makes an unsupported assertion to a supposed truth without the least reference to matters of fact, and having made the assertion immediately presumes to exclude any critique of his claim. And having pulled up the drawbridge behind him, by presuming to set those terms of reference, he then with breath-taking cheek seeks to find fault with David Hume’s empirical argument! He says [Hume’s position] “excludes all knowledge derived by inference or deduction from facts, confining us to what we derive from experience alone." Well, yes, Dr Greenleaf, for that is precisely what is meant by the term ‘facts’! We see a ploy that appears throughout his piece, where he introduces a premise as if it were already a certain truth, as if to establish it in the reader’s mind, and then as in this particular instance remembers the legal protocol and adds as an afterthought that what he claims to be proven ‘forms no part of these inquiries’. But if, as in a court of law, those leading statements form no part of the inquiries then should they not be struck from the record?

And then we have another of those unsupported assertions and a plea to authority by one who ought to know better, in which the truth of miracles is assumed with no objections allowed:

“But the full discussion of the subject of miracles forms no part of the present design. Their credibility has been fully established, and the objections of skeptics most satisfactorily met and overthrown, by the ablest writers of our own day, whose works are easily accessible.” 1097

Prior to that fallaciously dismissive passage Greenleaf says:

“We may fairly conclude that the power which was originally put forth to create the world is still constantly and without ceasing exerted to sustain it; and that the experienced connection between cause and effect is but the uniform and constantly active operation of the finger of God. Whether this uniformity of operation extends to things beyond the limits of our observation, is a point we cannot certainly know. But if we may infer, from what we see and know, that there is a Supreme Being, by whom this world was created, we may certainly, and with equal reason, believe him capable of works which we have never yet known him to perform.

In the above passage Greenleaf has digressed and gone well beyond the legal parameters to delve into the realm of metaphysics. Now what we can certainly know is that nothing in or of the contingent world is necessarily true, and in consequence there need be no world, to include all its operations, upon which, by analogy, he endows the Deity with its causal powers of creation and conservation. He admits we cannot go beyond experience and yet still seeks to do so, making God dependent upon features of the empirical world, that is to say cause and effect, a contingent principle that can be denied without contradiction. But if God, the Supreme Being, is dependent upon a contingent principle then by definition God is not God, which would be self-contradictory such as saying A=A is false or a thing is not the same as itself. Greenleaf argues that ‘the power originally put forth to create the world’ as cause and effect is the ‘active operation of the finger of God.’ But the analogy is a misleading one for cause and effect does not imply that anything was originally created; we do not create anything in the physical world, not objects, not thoughts, not anything; we just apply, adapt, or respond to what is already there. This synthesis doesn’t occur with the introduction of something that didn’t previously exist but comprises a change or variation in existent things. Even our most fantastic imaginings, for example, are not created from nothing but compounded from general experience.
“Without stopping to examine the correctness of [Hume’s] doctrine, as a fundamental principle in the law of evidence, it is sufficient in this place to remark, that it contains this fallacy: it excludes all knowledge derived by inference or deduction from facts, confining us to what we derive from experience alone, and thus depriving us of any knowledge, or even rational belief, or the existence or character of God.”
Greenleaf is supposed to be confining himself to matters of fact and experience as a principle of the rules of evidence, supposedly before a trier of fact, and yet questions Hume’s empiricism to speculate on the existence of God! And Hume’s empirical conclusions are hardly fallacious when Greenleaf himself has already acknowledges the limits of experience: “Whether this uniformity of operation extends to things beyond the limits of our observation is a point we cannot certainly know.” Hume’s argument is that by inference we may deduce conclusions that are to be found in possible experience, but nothing in experience is necessary, while Greenleaf is supposing to extend the principle beyond possible experience, which is nothing more than an exercise in sophistry or speculation. And notice how he already assumes the existence of God that the knowledge by inference is supposed to provide! So much for “bringing to the investigation a mind freed, as far as possible, from existing prejudice,” which was his very first sentence in page 1 of the piece. We are not seeing a genuine enquiry, a quest for the truth; rather we are seeing one who finds for a conclusion that is given in advance.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
Continuation

5
“In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether is it possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is sufficient probability that it is true.”
The case of Lazarus is not sufficiently probable that it must be judged true. For is it not more sufficiently probable that men must die and their corporeal forms return to dust than that they should return to life four days after in perfect health without the least corruption to the flesh? And further more his argument from “sufficient probability” is completely inconsistent with the special plea that he makes for “God being capable of works which we’ve never yet known him to perform.” That explanation, incidentally, is logically possible, which means it may be possibly true or possibly false, but we must quote Greenleaf’s own words again: “…the proper inquiry is not whether is it possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is sufficient probability that it is true.” So, not for the first time we see that he expects to make a case for “probability’ by arguing from possibility, which is self-contradictory, given what he has said previously.
Doctor Greenleaf makes much of the term “reasonable”, as in “there is no reasonable doubt about their truth.” And yet there are undoubtedly, and very reasonably, circumstances that generate suspicion. Resurrection requires the dead body to return to its former integrity and with no corruption or decaying of the flesh. But if an instance of resurrection is recorded as testimony, contrary to the uniformity of nature, “with every witness presumed to be credible”, then against them must be considered the almost infinite number of witnesses observing the uniformity of nature who have the balance of probability on their side. For should we not apply Doctor Greenleaf’s own maxim here “by satisfactory evidence, is meant that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond any reasonable doubt”. And it is not beyond all reasonable doubt, which ordinarily satisfies an “unprejudiced mind” that all men must suffer death and that flesh is irreversibly destroyed?
6
Greenleaf concludes his submission by asking whether, “if [the Evangelists] had testified on oath in a court of justice they would be entitled to credit, and whether their narratives, as we now have them, would be received as ancient documents, coming from the proper custody.” Yes, I think that may be acceptable. But of course Dr Greenleaf wants to go much further than that and he continues thus: “If so, then it is believed that every honest man will act consistently with that result, by receiving their testimony with all the extent of its import.” No, Dr Greenleaf, those two statements are not to be taken together. A commitment to the Christian religion is the only thing that has been consistent in Greenleaf’s entire submission, which certainly does not warrant an implication of dishonesty in the case of those who do not find those arguments from faith compelling. We are not obliged to accept the import that finds for extra-empirical conclusions from facts alone, especially since the agents or writers of those sources are unable to be cross-examined in person, and even if they were available there is no general corroborative or corresponding evidence of the supernatural to support their extraordinary accounts. The Evangelists were all men of faith and they no doubt believed in their hearts what they recounted, and those who transcribed or made copies did so in the belief that it was the Truth, and so it was held and passed on as an Article of Faith. It is entirely conceivable that good men have their doubts and yet “persevere in it, with the best of intentions in the world, for the sake of promoting a Holy cause.” (David Hume).

Conclusion
It is not my argument that the Evangelists conspired to mislead or to intentionally present a mendacious account (whether or not they actually did so). For the Evangelists (and also for Simon Greenleaf, it would seem!) faith is necessarily prior to any reasoning, although the believers’ reasoning will to be tuned to accommodate the teaching or elements of the preferred doctrine or belief system, for when reading Dr Greenleaf it is very difficult indeed to believe his claim that he was previously a religious sceptic who only became converted when he took up the challenge from his students. He has, I think, what can be fairly described as a faith-based familiarity with the Christian religion and, far too often, instead of presenting evidence of factual matters, we are given what is no more than an account of his faith-based beliefs in that particular doctrine (Sections numbers 3, 4 & 5). There is much that is wrong with the case that he makes and it is not compelling for an unbeliever; it is my view that Dr Greenleaf has made arguments not from indisputable evidence but from his indisputable faith, the very same indisputable faith that he shares with the Evangelists.
Cottage
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Well you are assuming I was talking to you, the response was a generic one about part of human nature. You will be hardpress to find a human who does not fear not-existing and usually when you do, it's usually someone who is vastly depressed.
You replied to me. That is still good grounds for thinking you are talking to me is it not. I have no doubt that most of us have fears I have little doubt that you have no idea if that is responsible for a Christians fate in any case at all. I'm sure it is but you have no access to it.

However the wording and framing you used in some of your posts regarding the issue can be misconstrued (since that is not your apparent intent), to indicate fear of some sort. I.e. the one who sides with someone because they know they can't defeat them.
There is little use in siding with something that did not exist. Wishful thinking can provide head faith but it will never produce a salvation experience. Salvation is the receipt of something no one has ever had the slightest idea what to expect before hand. Christianity alone offers and demands confirmation of every single believer. Think of the "empirical" insanity and stupidity of anyone who sets up a lie with a test it can't ever pass. The apostles could have claimed Jesus rose spiritually yet they chose physically, they could have said as Islam does that a believer must only agree intellectually yet they chose to offer proof that would have killed Christianity in the cradle if not true and suffered massively for that claim.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Continuation

5
“In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether is it possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is sufficient probability that it is true.”
The case of Lazarus is not sufficiently probable that it must be judged true. For is it not more sufficiently probable that men must die and their corporeal forms return to dust than that they should return to life four days after in perfect health without the least corruption to the flesh? And further more his argument from “sufficient probability” is completely inconsistent with the special plea that he makes for “God being capable of works which we’ve never yet known him to perform.” That explanation, incidentally, is logically possible, which means it may be possibly true or possibly false, but we must quote Greenleaf’s own words again: “…the proper inquiry is not whether is it possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is sufficient probability that it is true.” So, not for the first time we see that he expects to make a case for “probability’ by arguing from possibility, which is self-contradictory, given what he has said previously.
Doctor Greenleaf makes much of the term “reasonable”, as in “there is no reasonable doubt about their truth.” And yet there are undoubtedly, and very reasonably, circumstances that generate suspicion. Resurrection requires the dead body to return to its former integrity and with no corruption or decaying of the flesh. But if an instance of resurrection is recorded as testimony, contrary to the uniformity of nature, “with every witness presumed to be credible”, then against them must be considered the almost infinite number of witnesses observing the uniformity of nature who have the balance of probability on their side. For should we not apply Doctor Greenleaf’s own maxim here “by satisfactory evidence, is meant that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond any reasonable doubt”. And it is not beyond all reasonable doubt, which ordinarily satisfies an “unprejudiced mind” that all men must suffer death and that flesh is irreversibly destroyed?
6
Greenleaf concludes his submission by asking whether, “if [the Evangelists] had testified on oath in a court of justice they would be entitled to credit, and whether their narratives, as we now have them, would be received as ancient documents, coming from the proper custody.” Yes, I think that may be acceptable. But of course Dr Greenleaf wants to go much further than that and he continues thus: “If so, then it is believed that every honest man will act consistently with that result, by receiving their testimony with all the extent of its import.” No, Dr Greenleaf, those two statements are not to be taken together. A commitment to the Christian religion is the only thing that has been consistent in Greenleaf’s entire submission, which certainly does not warrant an implication of dishonesty in the case of those who do not find those arguments from faith compelling. We are not obliged to accept the import that finds for extra-empirical conclusions from facts alone, especially since the agents or writers of those sources are unable to be cross-examined in person, and even if they were available there is no general corroborative or corresponding evidence of the supernatural to support their extraordinary accounts. The Evangelists were all men of faith and they no doubt believed in their hearts what they recounted, and those who transcribed or made copies did so in the belief that it was the Truth, and so it was held and passed on as an Article of Faith. It is entirely conceivable that good men have their doubts and yet “persevere in it, with the best of intentions in the world, for the sake of promoting a Holy cause.” (David Hume).

Conclusion
It is not my argument that the Evangelists conspired to mislead or to intentionally present a mendacious account (whether or not they actually did so). For the Evangelists (and also for Simon Greenleaf, it would seem!) faith is necessarily prior to any reasoning, although the believers’ reasoning will to be tuned to accommodate the teaching or elements of the preferred doctrine or belief system, for when reading Dr Greenleaf it is very difficult indeed to believe his claim that he was previously a religious sceptic who only became converted when he took up the challenge from his students. He has, I think, what can be fairly described as a faith-based familiarity with the Christian religion and, far too often, instead of presenting evidence of factual matters, we are given what is no more than an account of his faith-based beliefs in that particular doctrine (Sections numbers 3, 4 & 5). There is much that is wrong with the case that he makes and it is not compelling for an unbeliever; it is my view that Dr Greenleaf has made arguments not from indisputable evidence but from his indisputable faith, the very same indisputable faith that he shares with the Evangelists.
Cottage
This is worse than the Chinese pouring across the border of Korea. I will take a week off and review this. I will get back on this as soon as I can if I live that long. What credentials do you have in law? Please remind me if I forget. A post that long deserves a meaningful reply.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
How about a group of lesser primates that eventually, in a zig-zag kind of way, became you and I? To picture what we know about the process, imagine a tree, and as one goes up the tree, many different branches appear. Now, we don't know if that tree originally had a single trunk or not, nor do we know if other trees were eventually crowded out, but we know the process in general did happen
The theory has evolved as much as what it describes. We had a tree, then a bush, now a forest. I will try and spare your time. No one has ever seen a thing evolve into a thing that does not resemble the first thing in almost every way. Kinds and species are words that are helpful for scientists but have no effect or ability to bind nature. Macro evolution is probably but will always bee a matter of faith.




There is absolutely no way one could possibly know that. A guess, yes; but there's simply no evidence to suggest as such.
That is a rule of philosophy that has no known exception nor theoretical one. I am going with the rule and do not understand why only on matters of God others do not. All the evidence that exist is consistent with what I claimed.


And how does one exactly know then if one's imagination is just involved? We humans are really good at imagining things, which is sometimes good but sometimes bad.
It is not an unreasoned faith and the same process of extracting credibility for what can't be verified is consistent with all of law and history but again why not with God?


How could you possibly know that?
Give me single example of one. Actual infinities are logical absurdities.


How could you possibly know that natural law cannot "create" through changes that occur all the time, assuming that there was always something there to begin with, which is certainly not a slam-dunk? This is why I keep my options open.
It is impossible that there was always something. Not even time can possibly be eternal and no evidence exists to even suggest the alternative. I can disprove any given infinity once one has been posited. Pick one. Do you keep your options open until there exists no options left. Do you do tat concerning immunization, marriage, finances, children? We always guess and rarely get confirmation. God is one that provides it.



I don't recall that I said you did judge me.
I assumed you assumed I had.



Thank you, and...

Shalom & Namaste
What is Namaste? Sounds like good night. Give me a possible infinite please. I can't discuss an infinite amount of infinities:)
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
You replied to me. That is still good grounds for thinking you are talking to me is it not. I have no doubt that most of us have fears I have little doubt that you have no idea if that is responsible for a Christians fate in any case at all. I'm sure it is but you have no access to it.

There is little use in siding with something that did not exist. Wishful thinking can provide head faith but it will never produce a salvation experience. Salvation is the receipt of something no one has ever had the slightest idea what to expect before hand. Christianity alone offers and demands confirmation of every single believer. Think of the "empirical" insanity and stupidity of anyone who sets up a lie with a test it can't ever pass. The apostles could have claimed Jesus rose spiritually yet they chose physically, they could have said as Islam does that a believer must only agree intellectually yet they chose to offer proof that would have killed Christianity in the cradle if not true and suffered massively for that claim.

I was responding to the point that you made, since I don't know you why would I make an assumption? As for what comes for a Christian faith, I'm actually quite sure I know what comes into it.

From the story you've told me, and that you have posted many times before, I also can see that you were never really an "atheist" to begin with, at least it doesn't appear as again you mentioned a hatred for God.

But again it's how you wrote it that had me make my response. Your personal life and what lead you to believe in God is your own personal experience.
 
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