Indoctrination.... Wrong or right?

[Jacksnyte]

Could have to do with our society and how it indoctrinates people into conformity and reliance on the government. People's unwillingness to challenge the government shows just how lacking the average American's critical thinking skills are.

:clap:clap:clap:clap
:bow::yes::bow::yes:

 

[Penumbra]

Abuse and neglect does not need to be intentional for it to be considered abuse or neglect. In some circumstances parents do not realise that they are abusing or neglecting their children and sometimes re-education is sufficient to remedy the problem. Sometimes re-education doesn't work or a parent is intentionally neglecting or abusing a child in which case its neccessary to remove the child from that environment.

I agree that it doesn't need to be intentional to be abuse, and didn't say otherwise. My point is that there is no clear line in the sand between abuse and not abuse. When it's intentional or physical, it's easier to spot, but when it's emotional and unintentional, it's rather elusive and difficult or arguably unethical to outlaw.

This is not intended to stop children being exposed to different ideas. It would not prevent parents from exposing children to Biblical creationism but it would discourage them from teaching children that Biblical creationism is fact and that evolution is a lie.

How do you propose that people are discouraged from teaching children that Biblical creationism is fact and that evolution is a lie?

But is that lack of ability to think critically actually due to nature or nurture?

A bit of both, I'd wager.

The following is an example of the type of "indoctrination" I recieved as a child. This type of thing continues to this day:

Your thoughts?

I've watched that whole movie before.

Pretty messed up stuff.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm starting to think most people are just born dumb.

I doubt it. Children tend to imitate their parents (or parental figures), just as part of their basic instincts.

 

[Madhuri]

I don't think it's avoidable. Why would we not pass on our own beliefs?
What I think is important is to be honest with the children by telling them that this is my belief, but I am not all-knowing and they are entitled to their own beliefs as they get older and have their own life experiences.

 

[blackout]

I think, sharing your personal outlooks is fine.
But they should be shared as your personal outlooks.
And they should not be forced upon your children,
as 'their own' personal outlooks.
(which of course is a dishonest notion to begin with)

It's also helpful to point out to your children,
that much of what they are taught by others,
school, society, govt, family, neighbors, friends,
are also the personal outlooks of others.
They should be encouraged to develop their OWN personal outlooks.
The things/ideals/ideas that are most important to you as a parent,
to hand on,
make a good case for them,
live by example,
and step out of the way.
Outlooks can only be formed
when you are allowed/enabled to "look out".

 

[Oneatatime]

Dude, if you want to talk about intellectual abuse (which I don't think is even an official form of "abuse), there are FAR worse things going on in that department than teaching Biblical creationism.

After all, there is a severe neglect of intellectualism in public schools, and most parents simply don't have the time to teach that kind of thing to their kids. So the schools, as they do nothing but shove facts (some of which are 100% false) down the kids' throats for no other reason than the next test, are intellectually abusing them.

We are discussing the teaching of Biblical creationsm not the general education system and your opinion of it.

 

[Frank Merton]

If it weren't for the indoctrination of children before they have a chance to think for themselves, religions would soon die out.

Consider, Egyptian children become Muslims (unless they are raised in Coptic families), Thai children become Buddhists (unless they are raised in Muslim families), American children become Protestants (unless they are raised in Catholic or Jewish or atheist families), and so on around the world.

Many children, if they live in a culture that permits it, hear other ideas and some even change their religion (actually only some, as most of those who doubt during their teenage years end up going back to the "faith" later).

There are strong instincts, evolved during millions of years of small community life, that reinforces our desire to stick with the cultural norms we learned as children. This applies to what is called "conscience" as well as to our faith. When someone who has doubted gives into these instincts and goes back to belief, the body rewards that person with joy and peace, whereas when the intellect wins out, the body punishes with hate and guilt.

The above greatly over-simplifies a complicated picture, but is accurate in general.

 

[Nerthus]

I always think that if I have children I will not force my religion or beliefs onto them. But, I think it would be harder for a Christian Jew or Muslim. I hate haivng someone else tell me what is right, so wouldn't do it to anyone else.

If I felt my faith was important then I would educate my child, but would also education them about the other religions in the world too, so that they could make their own decision and not just do what I say.

After all, I don't believe that forced faith is real faith.

But, I think we will all 'indoctrinate' our children in some way - for example, I wouldn't feed my child meat and when they asked I would probably explain why I feel that way. And this will influence them.

 

[Frank Merton]

But, I think we will all 'indoctrinate' our children in some way.

Absolutely, but I think we can do it in such a way that it is not really indoctrination -- that is to say, do it in such a way that they don't grow up with internalized beliefs but only with a good ability to form educated opinions.

In fact, I suspect that is exactly the sort of parent you would be.

 

[Nerthus]

Absolutely, but I think we can do it in such a way that it is not really indoctrination -- that is to say, do it in such a way that they don't grow up with internalized beliefs but only with a good ability to form educated opinions.

Oh yes, there is a difference.

In fact, I suspect that is exactly the sort of parent you would be.

I hope so

 

[Riverwolf]

We are discussing the teaching of Biblical creationsm not the general education system and your opinion of it.

Just saying that if you want to play the intellectual abuse card, I think teaching Biblical creationism is actually among the least abusive form of it.

Not to mention, children tend to, even inadvertently, pass on their opinions and biases to their children. To play the intellectual abuse card would be to call every parent who passes on an opinion or bias that perhaps wasn't reasoned out too well, regardless of what it is, is intellectually abusive.

That's part of the problem with that card. The line is so fuzzy that it can't be adequately defined.

 

[Riverwolf]

If it weren't for the indoctrination of children before they have a chance to think for themselves, religions would soon die out.

Consider, Egyptian children become Muslims (unless they are raised in Coptic families), Thai children become Buddhists (unless they are raised in Muslim families), American children become Protestants (unless they are raised in Catholic or Jewish or atheist families), and so on around the world.

Many children, if they live in a culture that permits it, hear other ideas and some even change their religion (actually only some, as most of those who doubt during their teenage years end up going back to the "faith" later).

There are strong instincts, evolved during millions of years of small community life, that reinforces our desire to stick with the cultural norms we learned as children. This applies to what is called "conscience" as well as to our faith. When someone who has doubted gives into these instincts and goes back to belief, the body rewards that person with joy and peace, whereas when the intellect wins out, the body punishes with hate and guilt.

The above greatly over-simplifies a complicated picture, but is accurate in general.

Huh. Even if religion turns out to be wrong, that sounds a lot better. I'd take joy and peace over hate and guilt, any day. :yes:

Then again, those of cultural norm rejected me as a child, so as a pre-teen, I rejected it. I'm an American with European ancestry, and a Hindu. (Been one for a couple years; I grew up in a secular house surrounded by science. Even that didn't prevent me from developing religious tendencies.)

 

[Oneatatime]

Just saying that if you want to play the intellectual abuse card, I think teaching Biblical creationism is actually among the least abusive form of it.

Not to mention, children tend to, even inadvertently, pass on their opinions and biases to their children. To play the intellectual abuse card would be to call every parent who passes on an opinion or bias that perhaps wasn't reasoned out too well, regardless of what it is, is intellectually abusive.

That's part of the problem with that card. The line is so fuzzy that it can't be adequately defined.

It is intellectual abuse when parents denigrate a scientific theory which is supported by a huge body of evidence and is fundamental to an understanding of biology and the history of Earth. It is also intellectual abuse to teach a child that Biblical Creationism is true because there is no evidence to support this claim and plenty of evidence which contadicts it. You say that its difficult to define what constitutes as intellectual abuse but this isn't really true because in the context I'm discussing it relates to academic subjects where the scientific concensus on any particular subject can be assessed. Evolution is widely accepted and Creationism is widely rejected on the grounds that its no scientific.

Your attemps to marginalise this problem by claiming that its not so bad relative to other forms of intellectual abuse fails because firstly you haven't actually stated what these other forms of intellectual abuse are and secondly instances of intellectual abuse shouldn't be ignored because their relative severity.

You are misrepresenting my position by claiming that I want children shielded from all possible sources of bias or poor reasoning. I did not say this but rather said that we shouldn't be teaching children that well established scientific theories are wrong or that that unsupporting religious claims are true.

 

[Oneatatime]

I agree that it doesn't need to be intentional to be abuse, and didn't say otherwise. My point is that there is no clear line in the sand between abuse and not abuse. When it's intentional or physical, it's easier to spot, but when it's emotional and unintentional, it's rather elusive and difficult or arguably unethical to outlaw.

How do you propose that people are discouraged from teaching children that Biblical creationism is fact and that evolution is a lie?

This is why I do not envy the task which social services have when it comes to protecting children from emotional abuse or neglect both intentional or unintentional because its hard to determine. Intelletual abuse through is much easier to identify because we just need to ask the child questions which directly or indirectly tells us what the parents have been teaching them. The line is also clear in regards to academic subjects because when it comes to religious vs scientific views we only need to check what the scientific consensus is.

My prefered approach to dealing with intellectual abuse would be to re-educate the parents. Where this fails I would be loathe to remove the children from an environment that could be otherwise healthy and would seek to counter the infleunce by giving the child additional support in school.

 

[Katzpur]

Personally, I believe influencing young children into believing in a God is wrong, and an abuse of a vulnerable mind. The Child is unable to make it's own reasoned choice of whether they believe.

So what do you believe about influencing young children into believing that there is no God?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So what do you believe about influencing young children into believing that there is no God?

:clap

 

[Katzpur]

The following is an example of the type of "indoctrination" I recieved as a child.

Your thoughts?

Seriously, if I'd received that kind of indoctrination as a child, I wouldn't be a Christian today either. That is completely opposite from the approach taken by my Church.

 

[Riverwolf]

It is intellectual abuse when parents denigrate a scientific theory which is supported by a huge body of evidence and is fundamental to an understanding of biology and the history of Earth. It is also intellectual abuse to teach a child that Biblical Creationism is true because there is no evidence to support this claim and plenty of evidence which contadicts it. You say that its difficult to define what constitutes as intellectual abuse but this isn't really true because in the context I'm discussing it relates to academic subjects where the scientific concensus on any particular subject can be assessed. Evolution is widely accepted and Creationism is widely rejected on the grounds that its no scientific.

Your attemps to marginalise this problem by claiming that its not so bad relative to other forms of intellectual abuse fails because firstly you haven't actually stated what these other forms of intellectual abuse are

Yes I did. You dismissed the post.

and secondly instances of intellectual abuse shouldn't be ignored because their relative severity.

Okay. Next chance you get, propose a law that will cause intellectual abuse to be defined and see what happens.

You are misrepresenting my position by claiming that I want children shielded from all possible sources of bias or poor reasoning. I did not say this but rather said that we shouldn't be teaching children that well established scientific theories are wrong or that that unsupporting religious claims are true.

I agree. But I do not think that the law, which relies on clarity and precision, can recognize it in the form we have now, especially under freedom of religion. If we were to impose such a law, it would be seen by many as a violation of that freedom (it wouldn't really be, but that's beside the point.)

 

[linwood]

So, do you believe in the indoctrination of young Children is acceptable?

I believe it`s unavoidable.
Children seek to emulate those they respect.

 

[linwood]

So what do you believe about influencing young children into believing that there is no God?

I believe it`s right up there with influencing young children into believing that there is no Boogie Monster.