Indoctrination.... Wrong or right?

[Riverwolf]

I believe it`s right up there with influencing young children into believing that there is no Boogie Monster.

I kinda disagree, though I understand the reasoning.

When it comes to God, I think it's best to simply not even talk about it. That's how it went in my family; I didn't even know what God WAS until junior high; until then, I thought he was some sort of king who ruled over angels (who are dead people) in heaven (which is in the sky). I think I got that from movies and other kids.

Let the kids decide when they're old enough to know what God is.

 

[linwood]

I kinda disagree, though I understand the reasoning.

When it comes to God, I think it's best to simply not even talk about it. That's how it went in my family; I didn't even know what God WAS until junior high; until then, I thought he was some sort of king who ruled over angels (who are dead people) in heaven (which is in the sky). I think I got that from movies and other kids.

Let the kids decide when they're old enough to know what God is.

I understand but you were brought up in a very unique environment.

My child is surrounded by god botherers and door to door god salesman pretty much constantly.

I have to answer those questions.

If your child should ask you what your beliefs are concerning gods should you simply refuse to answer or should you answer the question as you would if she asked what your beliefs are concerning ghosts or anything else for the matter?

The concept of gods deserves no special consideration from my point of view.

 

[Riverwolf]

If your child should ask you what your beliefs are concerning gods should you simply refuse to answer or should you answer the question as you would if she asked what your beliefs are concerning ghosts or anything else for the matter?

I would answer honestly, as I would if I were questioned on my position on the existence of ghosts. I'd make it clear, however, that not everybody shares that view, and that in truth, we can't know for sure.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe it`s right up there with influencing young children into believing that there is no Boogie Monster.

Yeah, I kind of figured you'd say something like that. So you're saying that even if I strongly believe in God myself, I should do everything in my power to convince my kids that He doesn't exist? In other words, I should make every effort to be a hypocrite. How would you suggest that I teach them to to value integrity?

 

[Penumbra]

This is why I do not envy the task which social services have when it comes to protecting children from emotional abuse or neglect both intentional or unintentional because its hard to determine. Intelletual abuse through is much easier to identify because we just need to ask the child questions which directly or indirectly tells us what the parents have been teaching them. The line is also clear in regards to academic subjects because when it comes to religious vs scientific views we only need to check what the scientific consensus is.

My prefered approach to dealing with intellectual abuse would be to re-educate the parents. Where this fails I would be loathe to remove the children from an environment that could be otherwise healthy and would seek to counter the infleunce by giving the child additional support in school.

The number of people in the US that don't accept evolution is somewhere in the ballpark of half, and a significant chunk of those actively disbelieve it.

When you say you would be loathe to remove the children, are you saying that you would?

 

[Frank Merton]

Huh. Even if religion turns out to be wrong, that sounds a lot better. I'd take joy and peace over hate and guilt, any day. :yes:

And most people do. The lucky ones are not indoctrinated in the first place; for others, the emotions subside with time. Still, do you ever notice how hateful some of the atheists around can be?

Then again, those of cultural norm rejected me as a child, so as a pre-teen, I rejected it. I'm an American with European ancestry, and a Hindu. (Been one for a couple years; I grew up in a secular house surrounded by science. Even that didn't prevent me from developing religious tendencies.)

And I have religious tendencies. There is nothing wrong with that; why it is even reasonable to think that maybe there are thing in this world not captured by modern "Western" physicalist thinking. That, however, is beside the point when one is mainly interested in how religions perpetuate themselves.

 

[Riverwolf]

And most people do. The lucky ones are not indoctrinated in the first place; for others, the emotions subside with time. Still, do you ever notice how hateful some of the atheists around can be?

Yup.

But I've also seen hateful theists, and one of my best friends is an atheist.

And I have religious tendencies. There is nothing wrong with that; why it is even reasonable to think that maybe there are thing in this world not captured by modern "Western" physicalist thinking. That, however, is beside the point when one is mainly interested in how religions perpetuate themselves.

Well, my experience with religion is definitely a unique one. After all, I actually created my own religion when I was in junior high. It was based on video games. I'm not joking.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah, I kind of figured you'd say something like that. So you're saying that even if I strongly believe in God myself, I should do everything in my power to convince my kids that He doesn't exist? In other words, I should make every effort to be a hypocrite. How would you suggest that I teach them to to value integrity?

I don't think linwood said that. He talked about what he'd do, not what he thought you should do.

Personally, I think that if a child isn't taught to believe in God while young, he or she is very unlikely to believe in God as an adult. I know there are some exceptions, but I think that's the general trend.

As for me, I don't plan to teach my (future) kids what to believe about God; I plan to get them to make up their own minds: my answer to the question "is God real?" isn't "no", it's "what do you think?" followed up by "why do you think that?"

 

[Katzpur]

I don't think linwood said that. He talked about what he'd do, not what he thought you should do.

I don't think he did either. The conversation between us is repeated below. I'm eagerly awaiting his reponse to my last question.

So what do you believe about influencing young children into believing that there is no God?

I believe it`s right up there with influencing young children into believing that there is no Boogie Monster.

So you're saying that even if I strongly believe in God myself, I should do everything in my power to convince my kids that He doesn't exist? In other words, I should make every effort to be a hypocrite. How would you suggest that I teach them to to value integrity?

I love the multi-quote function!

 

[Jacksnyte]

I don't think he did either. The conversation between us is repeated below. I'm eagerly awaiting his reponse to my last question.







I love the multi-quote function!

I think that children should be presented with information from all faiths as well as none in as unbiased a way as possible. This is the way I tried to raise my daughters!

 

[Katzpur]

I think that children should be presented with information from all faiths as well as none in as unbiased a way as possible. This is the way I tried to raise my daughters!

Ideally, that sounds like a good plan. If you were able to actually do that, great. I can't imagine that, given your experience with Christianity, though, you could do a very good job at presenting your daughters with an "unbiased" view of Christianity. Also, given the fact that there are some 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today, you could hardly do more than scratch the surface. I just know that Mormonism (whose members very definitely consider themselves to be Christians) have next to nothing in common with the group in that video you commented on. I shudder to think that my beliefs might be lumped in with those of the Christian faith you knew as a child. Also, I think it's really almost impossible to really explain something you don't have any more than a superficial understanding of yourself. If I were to try to explain Islam to a child (or teenager), I would do my darndest to be objective and thorough. I've got to admit, though, that I would probably do a lousy job. I think that to be able to make a choice as to which religion to follow, he has to be able to hear its doctrines taught by an adherent of the religion and to ask as many questions about it as he can think of.

I personally liked the way my parents raised me. I was taken to church every week and given religious instruction in my own church's beliefs. But, I was never, ever threatened and I was always encouraged to ask questions and express any doubts I might have. I remember having an interest in other religions than my own by the time I was ten or twelve, and being encouraged to find out about them.

 

[Jacksnyte]

Ideally, that sounds like a good plan. If you were able to actually do that, great. I can't imagine that, given your experience with Christianity, though, you could do a very good job at presenting your daughters with an "unbiased" view of Christianity. Also, given the fact that there are some 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today, you could hardly do more than scratch the surface. I just know that Mormonism (whose members very definitely consider themselves to be Christians) have next to nothing in common with the group in that video you commented on. I shudder to think that my beliefs might be lumped in with those of the Christian faith you knew as a child. Also, I think it's really almost impossible to really explain something you don't have any more than a superficial understanding of yourself. If I were to try to explain Islam to a child (or teenager), I would do my darndest to be objective and thorough. I've got to admit, though, that I would probably do a lousy job. I think that to be able to make a choice as to which religion to follow, he has to be able to hear its doctrines taught by an adherent of the religion and to ask as many questions about it as he can think of.

I personally liked the way my parents raised me. I was taken to church every week and given religious instruction in my own church's beliefs. But, I was never, ever threatened and I was always encouraged to ask questions and express any doubts I might have. I remember having an interest in other religions than my own by the time I was ten or twelve, and being encouraged to find out about them.

I guess I meant that I let my kids know that all these religions existed, and they were free to explore any of them or none of them. I wasn't about to force-feed them my own belief system. I would take them to whatever services they wanted, and would encourage them to really think about it. The problem is that their mothers both had differing opinions on indoctrination. I know so many people that weren't even aware growing up that there was any choice other than one form of Christianity or another. This is what has give Christianity a monopoly in the realm of religion in the U.S.A. Turns out we aren't nearly the "melting pot" we were taught we were in the 1970s! I will admit that there are a couple of religions that I would have no idea how to explain to my daughters when they were kids, but only a handful or less. I have studied world religions and spiritualities intensively since age 12 or 14.

 

[Oneatatime]

The number of people in the US that don't accept evolution is somewhere in the ballpark of half, and a significant chunk of those actively disbelieve it.

When you say you would be loathe to remove the children, are you saying that you would?

I am aware that a significant number of those who refuse to accept evolution are not going to be changed by re-education. In this particular situation even if the parents were full-blown creationists and brainwashed their child into believing that evolution was the lies of the devil it wouldn't justify removing the child from the household. To do so would be a reprehensible act of cruelty to both the child and famiy and I would rather they grow up ignorant of evolution than go through that.

 

[Jacksnyte]

Ideally, that sounds like a good plan. If you were able to actually do that, great. I can't imagine that, given your experience with Christianity, though, you could do a very good job at presenting your daughters with an "unbiased" view of Christianity. Also, given the fact that there are some 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today, you could hardly do more than scratch the surface. I just know that Mormonism (whose members very definitely consider themselves to be Christians) have next to nothing in common with the group in that video you commented on. I shudder to think that my beliefs might be lumped in with those of the Christian faith you knew as a child. Also, I think it's really almost impossible to really explain something you don't have any more than a superficial understanding of yourself. If I were to try to explain Islam to a child (or teenager), I would do my darndest to be objective and thorough. I've got to admit, though, that I would probably do a lousy job. I think that to be able to make a choice as to which religion to follow, he has to be able to hear its doctrines taught by an adherent of the religion and to ask as many questions about it as he can think of.

I personally liked the way my parents raised me. I was taken to church every week and given religious instruction in my own church's beliefs. But, I was never, ever threatened and I was always encouraged to ask questions and express any doubts I might have. I remember having an interest in other religions than my own by the time I was ten or twelve, and being encouraged to find out about them.

I do have my own opinions of Christianity and how people practice it, but I feel I can present a very unbiased synopsis of it, as well as a more in-depth look at it from various christian viewpoints.

 

[Oneatatime]

Yes I did. You dismissed the post.

Okay. Next chance you get, propose a law that will cause intellectual abuse to be defined and see what happens.

I agree. But I do not think that the law, which relies on clarity and precision, can recognize it in the form we have now, especially under freedom of religion. If we were to impose such a law, it would be seen by many as a violation of that freedom (it wouldn't really be, but that's beside the point.)

You said that you felt that the current education system was committing intellectual abuse by subjecting kids to a repeated cycle of intense fact learning and testing. I agree that this system puts far too much pressure on students, often fails to teach children in a way best suited to the child and fails to adequetly develop a students ability to apply critical thinking. I think that way of teaching has evolved partly due to the lack of evidence based teaching practices and partly due to league tables which encourages schools to take such an approach in order to maximise exam results. There is nothing wrong with what is being taught but rather how its being taught. My primary concern in this particular matter is with the content of whats being taught rather than how its being taught. I'm not dissmissing that a problem exists in the manner in which students learn at school but that its not relevent to the issue I raised and doesn't justify ignoring the problem of parents denigrating well supported science so that they can better promote their unsupported religious beliefs.

I know what will happen if a law was proposed which required parents to not to denigrate well supported scientific theories just because they contradicted their political or religious beliefs. It would be immediately tossed out becuase of the popular belief that parent should have the right to impress upon their child whatever beliefs they want to regardless of factual content. It would also be political suicide to attempt to pass laws which the religious don't like in a very religious country.

While I have no problem with laws protecting religious freedom I'm also keen to see laws giving freedom from religion put in place. If such a law was put in place then it would help limit proselytizing and particually so in instances where their audience is captive and particually vulnerable such as the case is with children. Freedom from Relgion needs to be balanced by Freedom from Religion so that individuals are free to practice their religious beliefs if they have them without being subject to the beliefs of others. I'm afraid those religions which promote proselytizing and inviduals who embrace it will just have to control themselves.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ideally, that sounds like a good plan. If you were able to actually do that, great. I can't imagine that, given your experience with Christianity, though, you could do a very good job at presenting your daughters with an "unbiased" view of Christianity. Also, given the fact that there are some 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today, you could hardly do more than scratch the surface.

Actually, I'm not sure how it would be possible to teach a child about religion in an unbiased way.

No matter how careful a parent was to be neutral and factual about each one, the fact that he's talking about the subject at all implies that it has some importance. Diligently and objectively teaching a child about denomination after denomination in a systematic way says to the child that religion is something of deep importance that deserves careful consideration, and by extension, that religion is more important than whatever the parent doesn't teach the child isn't quite as careful about.

Personally, I see a fair bit of bias in this approach.

OTOH, if a parent doesn't teach his child about religion at all, then this tells the child that religion isn't important, which I suppose is biased in the other direction.

I personally liked the way my parents raised me. I was taken to church every week and given religious instruction in my own church's beliefs. But, I was never, ever threatened and I was always encouraged to ask questions and express any doubts I might have. I remember having an interest in other religions than my own by the time I was ten or twelve, and being encouraged to find out about them.

I liked the way my parents raised me, too. I had a rather irreligious upbringing. I only ever set foot in a church a few times a year with my grandmother. I wasn't prevented from learning about religion - there was a Bible on the shelf in the living room that I could've read any time, and if I had ever said I wanted to go to church, my Mom probably would've found one to take me to - but it was never really pushed on me either. I didn't really start exploring religion until I was in my early 20s, and I don't think that hurt me any.

 

[Riverwolf]

You said that you felt that the current education system was committing intellectual abuse by subjecting kids to a repeated cycle of intense fact learning and testing. I agree that this system puts far too much pressure on students, often fails to teach children in a way best suited to the child and fails to adequetly develop a students ability to apply critical thinking. I think that way of teaching has evolved partly due to the lack of evidence based teaching practices and partly due to league tables which encourages schools to take such an approach in order to maximise exam results. There is nothing wrong with what is being taught but rather how its being taught. My primary concern in this particular matter is with the content of whats being taught rather than how its being taught.

Have you SEEN the so-called "history" taught in schools?

I'm not dissmissing that a problem exists in the manner in which students learn at school but that its not relevent to the issue I raised and doesn't justify ignoring the problem of parents denigrating well supported science so that they can better promote their unsupported religious beliefs.

None of those problems should be ignored. The problem is that there isn't much we can do about it directly.

I know what will happen if a law was proposed which required parents to not to denigrate well supported scientific theories just because they contradicted their political or religious beliefs. It would be immediately tossed out becuase of the popular belief that parent should have the right to impress upon their child whatever beliefs they want to regardless of factual content. It would also be political suicide to attempt to pass laws which the religious don't like in a very religious country.

While I have no problem with laws protecting religious freedom I'm also keen to see laws giving freedom from religion put in place. If such a law was put in place then it would help limit proselytizing and particually so in instances where their audience is captive and particually vulnerable such as the case is with children. Freedom from Relgion needs to be balanced by Freedom from Religion so that individuals are free to practice their religious beliefs if they have them without being subject to the beliefs of others. I'm afraid those religions which promote proselytizing and inviduals who embrace it will just have to control themselves.

Unfortunately, such a law would end up being similar to keeping parents from teaching their religion to their children, or could end up becoming way too close to such a law for comfort.

I honestly think this is a problem that needs to be addressed for the next generations. That's the only conceivable way I can think of: properly educate the current children as best as we can.

 

[Jacksnyte]

Have you SEEN the so-called "history" taught in schools?



None of those problems should be ignored. The problem is that there isn't much we can do about it directly.



Unfortunately, such a law would end up being similar to keeping parents from teaching their religion to their children, or could end up becoming way too close to such a law for comfort.

I honestly think this is a problem that needs to be addressed for the next generations. That's the only conceivable way I can think of: properly educate the current children as best as we can.

In the U.S., we are failing to do this miserably!

 

[Oneatatime]

Have you SEEN the so-called "history" taught in schools?

None of those problems should be ignored. The problem is that there isn't much we can do about it directly.

Unfortunately, such a law would end up being similar to keeping parents from teaching their religion to their children, or could end up becoming way too close to such a law for comfort.

I honestly think this is a problem that needs to be addressed for the next generations. That's the only conceivable way I can think of: properly educate the current children as best as we can.

The main criticism I had of history which I was taught at school was no so much the content but rather a lack of content. Apparantly if I had chosen to study it to a higher level I would have learned more of the British Empire but because I didn't myself and countless others were left ignorant of an important part of our countries history warts and all.

I have no problem with children being exposed to their parents religious beliefs and views because quite frankly its impossible to avoid and they are going to run into them eventually anyway but I do draw the line at attempting to force a child into that belief system which is what many religious parents do. It is not neccessary to be religious to grow up a moral and productive person so parents can't fall back on that as an excuse to force their religion on their children.

I agree that education is preferable to force.

 

[Jacksnyte]

The main criticism I had of history which I was taught at school was no so much the content but rather a lack of content. Apparantly if I had chosen to study it to a higher level I would have learned more of the British Empire but because I didn't myself and countless others were left ignorant of an important part of our countries history warts and all.

I have no problem with children being exposed to their parents religious beliefs and views because quite frankly its impossible to avoid and they are going to run into them eventually anyway but I do draw the line at attempting to force a child into that belief system which is what many religious parents do. It is not neccessary to be religious to grow up a moral and productive person so parents can't fall back on that as an excuse to force their religion on their children.

I agree that education is preferable to force.

My point earlier in the thread...Although I stated it less succinctly .....