Infallibility

[Vinayaka]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is only a Successor of Muhammad in our times. Even Muhammad could make mistakes of understanding and did not have any supernatural powers:

AYAH al-Isra` 17:93
Arabic

أَوْ يَكُونَ لَكَ بَيْتٌ مِّن زُخْرُفٍ أَوْ تَرْقَىٰ فِي السَّمَاءِ وَلَن نُّؤْمِنَ لِرُقِيِّكَ حَتَّىٰ تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَا كِتَابًا نَّقْرَؤُهُ قُلْ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّي هَلْ كُنتُ إِلَّا بَشَرًا رَّسُولًا
Transliteration

Aw yakoona laka baytun min zukhrufin aw tarqa fee alssama-i walan nu/mina liruqiyyika hattatunazzila AAalayna kitaban naqraohu qul subhana rabbee hal kuntu illa basharan rasoolan
Literal
(Word by Word) Or is for you a house of ornament or you ascend into the sky. And never we will believe in your ascension until you bring down to us a book we could read it." Say, "Glorified (is) my Lord! "What am I but a human, a Messenger."
Sher Ali

`Or, thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a Book that we can read.' Say, `Holy is my Lord ! I am but a mortal sent as a Messenger.'
John Medows Rodwell

Or thou have a house of gold; or thou mount up into Heaven; nor will we believe in thy mounting up, till thou send down to us a book which we may read." SAY: Praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?
al-Isra` 17:93

Regards

Thank you. This is a far more reasonable approach than infallibility. So now another question? How do Ahmadiyyas approach proselytising towards other religions?

 

[shunyadragon]

Infallibility as considered is a relative infallibility that evolves with time and the spiritual evolution of humanity. The only absolute infallibility lies with God. Each Revelation brings a new progressive set of spiritual principles for the Age. The teachings and principles of the Revelation of the time is considered 'Divine Guidance' and should be followed as if infallible as the teachings of God.

The Infallible Balance: Morality, Religion and Law

The Baha’i Faith also brings a new code of laws to humanity.

In summary, the Baha’i laws outlaw holy war, murder and manslaughter. They forbid religious hatred, violence and the burning of books. They abolish the concept of ritual impurity by regarding all things and all people as pure, and viewing nothing as untouchable. They establish and uphold freedom of conscience and belief. They forthrightly declare the equality of women and men. They assert the fundamental agreement of science and religion. They forbid slavery. They have no dress code, dietary restrictions or dogma. They promote world peace, the unity of nations and the absolute equality of all races. They protect freedom of religion, and ask us all to befriend the followers of every religion. The Baha’i laws call for equal justice and equal human rights for every human being everywhere:

Justice is not limited, it is a universal quality. Its operation must be carried out in all classes, from the highest to the lowest. Justice must be sacred, and the rights of all the people must be considered. Desire for others only that which you desire for yourselves. Then shall we rejoice in the Sun of Justice, which shines from the Horizon of God. – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 159-160.

The spiritual principles and teachings of the Baha'i scripture should be considered infallible for the age. These spiritual principles evolve into the laws, and over time the laws evolve.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm curious, Paarsurrey. Do the Amadiyyas consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad infallible?

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is only a Successor of Muhammad in our times. Even Muhammad could make mistakes of understanding and did not have any supernatural powers:

AYAH al-Isra` 17:93
Arabic أَوْ يَكُونَ لَكَ بَيْتٌ مِّن زُخْرُفٍ أَوْ تَرْقَىٰ فِي السَّمَاءِ وَلَن نُّؤْمِنَ لِرُقِيِّكَ حَتَّىٰ تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَا كِتَابًا نَّقْرَؤُهُ قُلْ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّي هَلْ كُنتُ إِلَّا بَشَرًا رَّسُولًا
Transliteration Aw yakoona laka baytun min zukhrufin aw tarqa fee alssama-i walan nu/mina liruqiyyika hattatunazzila AAalayna kitaban naqraohu qul subhana rabbee hal kuntu illa basharan rasoolan
Literal
(Word by Word) Or is for you a house of ornament or you ascend into the sky. And never we will believe in your ascension until you bring down to us a book we could read it." Say, "Glorified (is) my Lord! "What am I but a human, a Messenger."
Sher Ali `Or, thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a Book that we can read.' Say, `Holy is my Lord ! I am but a mortal sent as a Messenger.'
John Medows Rodwell Or thou have a house of gold; or thou mount up into Heaven; nor will we believe in thy mounting up, till thou send down to us a book which we may read." SAY: Praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?
al-Isra` 17:93

Regards

Thank you. This is a far more reasonable approach than infallibility. So now another question? How do Ahmadiyyas approach proselytising towards other religions?

That is but one view of Islam. The Shia do beleive in the Infalability of the Prophets, wheras the Sunni see it differently.

Ismah - Wikipedia

The Branch of Islam that the Bab was part of did.

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

That is but one view of Islam. The Shia do beleive in the Infalability of the Prophets, wheras the Sunni see it differently.

Ismah - Wikipedia

The Branch of Islam that the Bab was part of did.

Regards Tony

This in part depends on how you interpret infallibility. When one interpret in absolute terms this turns into a house of cards.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Infallibility as considered is a relative infallibility that evolves with time and the spiritual evolution of humanity. The only absolute infallibility lies with God.

This in part depends on how you interpret infallibility. When one interpret in absolute terms this turns into a house of cards.

Also the Supreme Manifestation, it is essential.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

Thank you. This is a far more reasonable approach than infallibility. So now another question? How do Ahmadiyyas approach proselytising towards other religions?

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is only a Successor of Muhammad in our times.
Again from G-d:

AYAH ash-Shu`ara` 26:3

Arabic

لَعَلَّكَ بَاخِعٌ نَّفْسَكَ أَلَّا يَكُونُوا مُؤْمِنِينَ
Transliteration

LaAAallaka bakhiAAun nafsaka alla yakoonoo mu/mineena
Literal
(Word by Word) Perhaps you (would) kill yourself* that not they become believers.
Sher Ali

Haply thou* wilt grieve thyself to death because they believe not.
George Sale

Peradventure thou afflictest thy* self unto death, lest the Meccans become not true believers.
John Medows Rodwell

Haply thou wearest thyself* away with grief because they will not believe.
ash-Shu`ara` 26:3
*Muhammad

A messenger of G-d has to deliver the message G-d gave him, else, he has not done his duty towards humanity, and in his footsteps, the believers also.
I know one won't like it.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you. This is a far more reasonable approach than infallibility. So now another question? How do Ahmadiyyas approach proselytising towards other religions?

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is only a Successor of Muhammad in our times.
Again from G-d:

AYAH ash-Shu`ara` 26:3

Arabic لَعَلَّكَ بَاخِعٌ نَّفْسَكَ أَلَّا يَكُونُوا مُؤْمِنِينَ
Transliteration LaAAallaka bakhiAAun nafsaka alla yakoonoo mu/mineena
Literal
(Word by Word) Perhaps you (would) kill yourself* that not they become believers.
Sher Ali Haply thou* wilt grieve thyself to death because they believe not.
George Sale Peradventure thou afflictest thy* self unto death, lest the Meccans become not true believers.
John Medows Rodwell Haply thou wearest thyself* away with grief because they will not believe.
ash-Shu`ara` 26:3
*Muhammad

A messenger of G-d has to deliver the message G-d gave him, else, he has not done his duty towards humanity, and in his footsteps, the believers also.
I know one won't like it.

Regards

It seems the answer is by proselytising

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

Also the Supreme Manifestation, it is essential.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

Much more detail, but essentially infallibility is described from the perspective of the nature of God and the Manifestation of God and from the human perspective, which is not perceivable nor definable as absolute.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Much more detail, but essentially infallibility is described from the perspective of the nature of God and the Manifestation of God and from the human perspective, which is not perceivable nor definable as absolute.

Sorry that lost me I have no idea what that means. If I explain how I see it, maybe a rewording may help me see what you are saying?

I see the 'Self of God' is the Manifestation, thus does this passage not say it loud and clear?

"...He Who is the Dawning-place of God’s Cause hath no partner in the Most Great Infallibility. He it is Who, in the kingdom of creation, is the Manifestation of ‘He doeth whatsoever He willeth’. God hath reserved this distinction unto His own Self, and ordained for none a share in so sublime and transcendent a station.”

Thus God's Self in the Kingdom of Creation, is the Manifestation, they are the Most Great Infallibility.

I have to see this logically, I am that type of mind.

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

Sorry that lost me I have no idea what that means. If I explain how I see it, maybe a rewording may help me see what you are saying?

I see the 'Self of God' is the Manifestation, thus does this passage not say it loud and clear?

"...He Who is the Dawning-place of God’s Cause hath no partner in the Most Great Infallibility. He it is Who, in the kingdom of creation, is the Manifestation of ‘He doeth whatsoever He willeth’. God hath reserved this distinction unto His own Self, and ordained for none a share in so sublime and transcendent a station.”

Thus God's Self in the Kingdom of Creation, is the Manifestation, they are the Most Great Infallibility.

I have to see this logically, I am that type of mind.

Regards Tony

The bottomline is infallibility is not perceivable nor definable as absolute from the human perspective.

 

[Vinayaka]

It seems the answer is by proselytising

Regards Tony

I've never been preached to by Ammadiyas. Certainly not here on this forum. There doesn't seem to be anywhere near the 'I'm right and you're wrong,' attitude.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I've never been preached to by Ammadiyas. Certainly not here on this forum. There doesn't seem to be anywhere near the 'I'm right and you're wrong,' attitude.

Well I hoped you would see the funny side, but not so it seems.....!

Thus as I see you got quotes in your answer, as well as a hint about Messengers of God in the answer and that followers must also teach, all of which has been approached differently in the past, by you. I thought that answer may have had the same response. But not so, I surrender, no more aussie humor to vinayaka.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The bottomline is infallibility is not perceivable nor definable as absolute from the human perspective.

Please excuse my simple use of english.

How can that be, as why teach the principle if we are not capable of defining what it means to us and how we are to apply it in our lives? That is not logical to me.

God is unknowable in Essence, that door is closed, I have no need to try to open it as that guidance has been given by an Infallible source.

I see Muhammad paved the way to what we can know about Infalibility, it is a total submission to God through the Manifestation and the Message given.

That in itself is a strong foundation to build a good definition, is it not?

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

Please excuse my simple use of english.

How can that be, as why teach the principle if we are not capable of defining what it means to us and how we are to apply it in our lives? That is not logical to me.

God is unknowable in Essence, that door is closed, I have no need to try to open it as that guidance has been given by an Infallible source.

I see Muhammad paved the way to what we can know about Infalibility, it is a total submission to God through the Manifestation and the Message given.

That in itself is a strong foundation to build a good definition, is it not?

Regards Tony

No it is not the definition, we submit in total submission to God because we believe in infallibility of the Guidance, and not because we can define what infallibility is in terms of God and the nature of the Manifestation of God.

I believe there is a great deal of conflict and disunity, because different people try to define what is infallible and what is not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe there is a great deal of conflict and disunity, because different people try to define what is infallible and what is not.

Yes I can see that is what happened in the past and definitly has a certain carry over effect. This may be the dispensation when we get to define what that means through the Covenant of Baha'u'llah. It may lay with us not making up our own ideas, but accepting what has been given.

I do see an evolution, or call it a transition period between what we did wrong with Infalibility and what we need to do that is right. I see the Golden age where unity of mind has progressed, will give us a greater insight on Infalability.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Well I hoped you would see the funny side, but not so it seems.....!

Thus as I see you got quotes in your answer, as well as a hint about Messengers of God in the answer and that followers must also teach, all of which has been approached differently in the past, by you. I thought that answer may have had the same response. But not so, I surrender, no more aussie humor to vinayaka.

I didn't read it that way at all. Some people see hints of a messenger in grains of sand. As for quotes and proselytising, if somebody uses a quote in an answer to a question, it's generally helpful, but when quotes are just uses incessantly, then it's proselytysing, by me. Fortunately, many folks here have followed the request of others not to do excessive quoting, often off topic, rarely read by anyone. Thank goodness.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes I can see that is what happened in the past and definitly has a certain carry over effect. This may be the dispensation when we get to define what that means through the Covenant of Baha'u'llah. It may lay with us not making up our own ideas, but accepting what has been given.

I do see an evolution, or call it a transition period between what we did wrong with Infalibility and what we need to do that is right. I see the Golden age where unity of mind has progressed, will give us a greater insight on Infalability.

Regards Tony

This is more in the theme of the Baha'i Faith, where human spirituality evolves through Revelation, and our comprehension of God's will becomes more an intimate part of our lives. It is not only a transitional process, but a continuous evolving process. Infallibility is more how humans may perceive the Will of God through the Manifestations of God

 

[paarsurrey]

Infallibility

One may like to read post #621 in another thread, which is very relevant here also,no compulsion though.

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

Infallibility

One may like to read post #621 in another thread, which is very relevant here also,no compulsion though.

Regards

All this shows is you do not believe in the claim of Baha'u'llah.

 

[danieldemol]

Thank you. This is a far more reasonable approach than infallibility. So now another question? How do Ahmadiyyas approach proselytising towards other religions?

It is a misleading answer in post #660 as to my understanding the Quran itself is considered infallible by Ahmadiyya, and concerning the leader of Ahmadiyya it is written, “A Khalifah is granted a lesser infallibility. As he is a component of the Divine mechanism, a Khalifah has been promised a limited providential infallibility from major mistakes liable to bring about disastrous consequences... This unique position is not available to any other type of leader.“
Khilafat-e-Rashida - The Rightly Guided Caliphate | Islam Ahmadiyya